The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian wrote

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

The biblical basis for the concept of rightly dividing God’s Word is in 2 Ti 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

We must realize what books are to us and what books are for us to understand.

When we see that God raised up the Apostle Paul to preach the new gospel of grace that was hidden in God until He gave it to Paul and told him to emphasize rightly divide God’s Word.

We must study to show ourselves approved to God and separate His Word written to the Circumcision in the Old Testament and by the Circumcision Apostles in the New Testament, from the Word inspired by God to be written by Paul to us members of the Body of Christ in the Dispensation of Grace.

When recognize that some of the biblical writings are not to us, even though they are profitable for us to read and understand, just as other biblical writings are not to Israel, the theology of God’s Word doesn’t get all messed up and confusing to the people to whom it was not sent.

That confusion, most of the time, causes people who do not rightly divide the word of truth to try to apply the writings of Peter, James, and John to us members of the body of Christ.

Again, all scripture is profitable for us to read, but not all scripture is addressed to or pertains to us members of the body of Christ.

When Jam 2:21 tells us that Abraham our father was justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar and James 2:24 says You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only, we see that there is a different method of salvation in the Circumcision Epistles of Hebrews through Revelation.

Damian wrote

I see. Therefore the gospels do not apply to Christians who are presently in the dispensation of grace. This would explain why evangelicals and fundamentalists fail to grasp the most basic teachings of Jesus. Also, dispensationalism makes it very convenient to maintain the preconceived theology of OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) by "dispensing" with the Jewish-Christian epistles (roughly one-third of the NT). Add the gospels, and the book of Revelation, and you have now dispensed with 12 of the 27 books in the NT.

This is very interesting. Dispensationalism would have us believe that the gospels - the core teachings of Jesus Christ - are not intended for Christians.

Yes, Damian, the gospels do not apply to us in the Dispensation of Grace. For instance, when Peter wrote this, “Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” we certainly are not saved today because we fear God and work righteousness.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian wrote

This would explain why evangelicals and fundamentalists fail to grasp the most basic teachings of Jesus. Also, dispensationalism makes it very convenient to maintain the preconceived theology of OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) by "dispensing" with the Jewish-Christian epistles (roughly one-third of the NT). Add the gospels, and the book of Revelation, and you have now dispensed with 12 of the 27 books in the NT.

This is very interesting. Dispensationalism would have us believe that the gospels - the core teachings of Jesus Christ - are not intended for Christians.

Again, Damian, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, however, the gospels do not apply to us in the Dispensation of Grace. The method of salvation in the gospels are somewhat works oriented as well as belief. That same passage, Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” we certainly are not saved today because we fear God and work righteousness.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian wrote

Pray tell, to which dispensation(s) do the gospels and the Jewish-Christian espistles, and the book of Revelation apply?

They apply to the dispensation just prior to the Dispensation of Grace that God gave to the Apostle Paul.

Eph 3:1-7 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Bob Hill

Damian · Dec 9, 2006

Bob Hill said:
Again, Damian, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, however, the gospels do not apply to us in the Dispensation of Grace. The method of salvation in the gospels are somewhat works oriented as well as belief. That same passage, Acts 10:34,35 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” we certainly are not saved today because we fear God and work righteousness.

Okay Bob. At least we know where you stand. However, if Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the dispensation of grace is a Gentile dispensation, why is Paul writing an epistle to the Hebrews?

Also, as far as I know, John 3:7 is the only reference to the idea of being "born again."

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

Therefore, I am assuming that you do not identify yourself as a "born again" Christian, because to do so, would be to mixed dispensations. Now, this begs the question, in what what dispensation are the gospels applicable?

Also, are you ever going to address Romans 8:1?

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian wrote

Dispensationalism alleviates the OSAS advocates from attempting to "word-smith" James 2:14. Brilliant!!

We nefarious Open View people don’t have to twist James 2:14-18 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

I certainly acknowledge that the passage in James 2:14-18 actually does teach that faith and works are required for salvation.

Faith and works were required for salvation; however, this requirement does not apply to the present dispensation of grace; it applies to the dispensations before the Body of Christ started, and it will end at the rapture, which will be before the tribulation.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian wrote

Also, it is now reasonable to assume that dispensationalists will acknowledge that Hebrews chapters 3, 6 and 10 actually do teach that the believer can lose his salvation; and not only that he can lose it, but furthermore, once it is lost, there is no more opportunity for repentance.

I certainly acknowledge that the passage in Hebrews chapters 3, 6 and 10 actually do teach that the believer can lose his salvation, and not only that he can lose it, but furthermore, once it is lost, there is no more opportunity for repentance.

Again, faith and works were required for salvation. But this requirement does not apply to the present dispensation of grace; it applies to the dispensations before the Body of Christ started, and it will end at the rapture, which will be before the tribulation.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian posted

Heb 10:26,27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

I also acknowledge that the passage in Hebrews 10:26,27 actually does teach that the believer can lose his salvation, and not only that he can lose it, but furthermore, once it is lost, there is no more opportunity for repentance.

Once again, faith and works were required for salvation. If they sin willfully they cannot be saved. Praise God, for in this Dispensation of Grace, this requirement does not apply to us; it applies to the dispensations before the Body of Christ started, and it will end at the rapture, which will be before the tribulation.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian posted

However....Bob...your theology of OSAS still retains some problems - namely that the Pauline epistles apparently do not support your contention that a believer "once saved is always saved."

Here's just one example:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The following passage in Romans says that there is "no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus"....WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH...but after the Spirit.

Hopefully, you will acknowledge this passage and provide us with a cogent exegesis.

That is a wonderful passage if you read the context rather than taking one verse.
Rom 8:1-14 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (I do not believe it means we never walk according to the flesh. If that were true, no one would be saved.) 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors - not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

Damian · Dec 9, 2006

Bob Hill said:
Damian posted

I also acknowledge that the passage in Hebrews 10:26,27 actually does teach that the believer can lose his salvation, and not only that he can lose it, but furthermore, once it is lost, there is no more opportunity for repentance.

Once again, faith and works were required for salvation. If they sin willfully they cannot be saved. Praise God, for in this Dispensation of Grace, this requirement does not apply to the present us; it applies to the dispensations before the Body of Christ started, and it will end at the rapture, which will be before the tribulation.

Bob Hill

Okay Bob. Thanks for the clarification on the Jewish-Christian epistles. There are some Open Theists on this very forum who are not dispensationalists (perhaps, I should say hyper-dispensationalists) and would have us believe that James does not teach faith and works and Hebrews does not teach conditional security.

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian,

Paul did not write the book of Hebrews. The style of the underlying Greek in Hebrews is so different from Paul's that it is almost impossible for Paul to be the one who wrote it.

You are right in being able to see that the style of the Greek is so different.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian,

Even if we, in this dispensation, grieve the Holy Spirit, it does not affect our salvation. We are sealed.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Damian · Dec 9, 2006

Bob Hill said:
That is a wonderful passage if you read the context rather than taking one verse.

Okay Bob. Let's parse the passage.

Bob Hill said:
Rom 8:1-14 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

The verse (Romans 8:1) explicitly states that the "no condemnation" is provisional. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus provided that they "do not walk according to the flesh" but "according to the Spirit."

Bob HIll said:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (I do not believe it means we never walk according to the flesh. If that were true, no one would be saved.)

You say that you "do not believe it means we never walk according to the flesh." But that is exactly what is implied. The believer can and does work according to the flesh. And this is the crux of Paul's argument, that the believer is not to walk according to the flesh.

Note that in Romans 8:4 the keyword is "might." "Might" is conditional. And what is the condition? The condition is that the righteous of the law MIGHT be fulfilled in us, who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH.

The implication is clear. If you walk after the flesh, the righteousnous of the law will not be fulfilled.

4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4

Romans 8:5-8 is also clear. To be carnally minded is death; to be spiritually minded is life. The Christian now has the potential to fulfill the righteousnous of the law if and only if he is spiritually minded.

Bob Hill said:
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9 states that "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit." If you accepted Christ, then you are in the Spirit. However, this does not mean that you will automatically fulfill the righteous of the law that is in Christ Jesus. You must live according to the Spirit, not the flesh. The Christian now has the means, the power to live according to the Spirit, whereas the unbeliever does not. However, this should not be misconstrued to mean that the Christian will live according to the Spirit. The truth is that often he does not.

Bob Hill said:
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 8:10, 11 again reiterates the point. The believer is in Christ and the body is dead because of sin, but the believer has the Spirit. And the Spirit is life because of righteousness. The Spirit has now equipped the believer with the power to live in righteousness.

Bob Hill said:
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Romans 8:12-14 summarizes Paul's argument. The Christian now has the Spirit to enable him to fulfill the law of righteousness. And he is indebted to live after the Spirit, not the flesh. However, if the believer "lives according to the flesh," he "will die" (verse 13). But if the believer by the Spirit "puts to death (in the KJV...mortify) the deeds of the body," he "will live." Therefore, salvation is a process in which the believer must mortify the flesh and this is not the work of the believer per se, but of the Spirit. The believer is simply required to yield his will to the Will of God. This is walking by faith.

Bob Hill said:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors - not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

In summary, the doctrine of OSAS is not biblical. It is a preconceived theology that undermines the integrity of the gospel. Hyper-dispensationalism stems from an attempt to support this doctrine and it does so by dispensing with almost half of the NT.

Damian · Dec 9, 2006

Bob Hill said:
Damian,

Paul did not write the book of Hebrews. The style of the underlying Greek in Hebrews is so different from Paul's that it is almost impossible for Paul to be the one who wrote it.

You are right in being able to see that the style of the Greek is so different.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I am not a biblical or Greek scholar. Therefore, I am not qualified to speak on the issue. However, the KJV entitles the book "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." And if Paul did not write "Hebrews," why is the Church attempting to cover it up?

I suspect that the only scholars who are denying that Paul is the author of Hebrews are evangelical and Baptist scholars who are attempting to maintain OSAS.

At any rate, this is just more proof positive that the notion that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God is patently false.

lightninboy · Dec 9, 2006

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

lightninboy wrote:

Pastor Hill, I guess we both believe in grace and eternal security by sealing of the Holy Spirit for this age. Where we possibly don't agree is Acts 2 versus Mid-Acts, the Book of John being for Christians today, the Old Testament saints being saved by grace through faith plus nothing, maybe something else.

And that's what I'd like to get settled.

You have really analyzed our differences well. I must say we don't agree in regard to Acts 2 and Mid-Acts. I do believe that all of the Scriptures are important for us to study and know, so in that sense, I believe that the Book of John is very profitable for Christians today, but I agree that we differ on how the Old Testament saints were saved. I believe they were by grace through faith, but they had to do certain things that God required. I'm not sure if you mean the Old Testament believers were saved just by faith, or had to do what God said they had to do, by faith - which was a lot.

In Christ,
Bob

Bob Hill · Dec 9, 2006

Damian

Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Damian,

Paul did not write the book of Hebrews. The style of the underlying Greek in Hebrews is so different from Paul's that it is almost impossible for Paul to be the one who wrote it.

You are right in being able to see that the style of the Greek is so different.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Damian wrote:

I am not a biblical or Greek scholar. Therefore, I am not qualified to speak on the issue. However, the KJV entitles the book "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews." And if Paul did not write "Hebrews," why is the Church attempting to cover it up?

I suspect that the only scholars who are denying that Paul is the author of Hebrews are evangelical and Baptist scholars who are attempting to maintain OSAS.

At any rate, this is just more proof positive that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God is patently false.

Damian,
First, I believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. I have been studying it for 55 years.

Just because the Bible scholars who were involved with the production of the 1611 KJV printed a translation that met the needs of most English and was done for

THE MOST HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE JAMES, BY THE GRACE OF GOD, KING OF GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND IRELAND, DEFENDER OF THE FAITH, Etc.

I don’t see that THE MOST HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE JAMES was such a great guy. I use a New King James text, but I refer to the Greek Majority text constantly.

There is a lot of textual criticism evaluation going on all the time, that is, a lot of attempt to get the translation closest to when it was written. This is tough because there are so many ancient manuscripts to evaluate.

I think we a re very safe if we recognize that the English translation can be changed as the English language changes. We have to look at the underlying Greek for every translation of the New Testament and the Hebrew for the Old Testament.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

lightninboy · Dec 9, 2006

The Mid-Acts Dispensationalism point of view.

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1078782137.html
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1011391041.html
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/999291000.html
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017958318.html
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1044571689.html
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/999295403.html

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/o...LISM OF BULLINGER, SCOFIELD AND RICE, THE.pdf
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/GRACE WORKS IN ADOBE/GOSPEL OF JOHN, THE.pdf

lightninboy · Dec 9, 2006

John 3:16.
Don't take the Reformed stuff too seriously though. Still, the Reformeds may help prove that John 3:16 is for today by denying it is for the non-elect.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/John316.html
http://www.the-highway.com/Jh3.16.html
I cut my theological teeth reading Arthur W. Pink books.
http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/htm/false_doctrine/john/part1.htm
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...:16+scope+of+mankind&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5
http://www.fredsbibletalk.com/fb003.html
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/McMahonExegesisOfJohn3_16.htm
http://www.dlarsen.com/documents/who_does_god_hate.aspx
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1852OE/520623_gods_love.htm
http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/John316.htm
http://www.nathan.co.za/story.asp?PageID=72
http://1stholistic.com/Spl_prayers/meditation-on-john-3-16.htm
http://www.gospelgrace.com/soteriology/John316WEBest.html
http://www.covenanter.org/Luther/luther_john03v16to21.html
http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3839.html
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...n+3:16+Old+covenant&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=11
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/03/calvin-on-john-316limited-or-unlimited.html

Damian · Dec 10, 2006

Bob Hill said:
First, I believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. I have been studying it for 55 years.

Just because the Bible scholars who were involved with the production of the 1611 KJV printed a translation that met the needs of most English and was done for

I don’t see that THE MOST HIGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE JAMES was such a great guy. I use a New King James text, but I refer to the Greek Majority text constantly.

There is a lot of textual criticism evaluation going on all the time, that is, a lot of attempt to get the translation closest to when it was written. This is tough because there are so many ancient manuscripts to evaluate.

I think we a re very safe if we recognize that the English translation can be changed as the English language changes. We have to look at the underlying Greek for every translation of the New Testament and the Hebrew for the Old Testament.

Bob,

You're missing the point. I am not defending the King James Bible per se. I am simply questioning the assertion that Paul is not the author of Hebrews. Is this the scholarly consensus?

lightninboy · Dec 10, 2006

Rom 8:1-14 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Yeah, I'd like to see Romans 7 and 8 explained too. I've got an old Moody Press Sunday school book on Romans I should dig up.

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The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

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