The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Lighthouse said:
Also, I used to be an Acts 2er. My walk with God suffered greatly because of it.


Why? The majority of believers are Acts 2 and are doing just fine growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ unto maturity. Dispensational views are no excuse for your weaknesses and they are not a cure all if you have now found victory.
 

Damian

New member
godrulz said:
Why? The majority of believers are Acts 2 and are doing just fine growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ unto maturity. Dispensational views are no excuse for your weaknesses and they are not a cure all if you have now found victory.

What is "MAD" and how does that differ from your view?
 

Lighthouse

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lightninboy said:
Dear Lighthouse,

On the Gospel to the circumcision thread, you seemed to say that after Pentecost the saved Jews kept the Law but didn’t really have to because they were really saved by grace.
Did I? Well, they did have to keep the law. Jesus told them to. But it didn't save them. However, they had grown up with the law. And it would have been hard not to continue keeping it, as best they could. However, they did not lose their salvation if they broke a law here and there. No one could keep it perfectly. God knew that. That's why we are saved by grace in the first place.

Now you agree with Bob Hill and Clete that the Jews alive at Pentecost had to obey the Law until they died or else they were out of salvation?
See above.

You say no one was ever saved by the law and that the law condemns and doesn’t save.
Yes I do.

Then you say that the Old Testament saints kept the law.{/quote]
Yes, they kept it. And? However, I wouldn't call them saints. They had no salvation. Except to look forward to.

You say converts after the cross did have to keep the law, until Christ met Saul on the road to Damascus.
They were commanded to by Christ.

Were Jews included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace exactly as Saul became blinded or when? What about the idea that they had to keep the law until they died? If you can’t prove when Jews were included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace, how can we be sure they really are?
The dispensation of grace [alone] started when Paul started preaching it. And Jews could be included. Paul said so, when he stated that there were no differences between Jew and Gentile in the Body.

You say you don’t believe anyone was saved before Christ.
That's what I say.

But if one made it into Abraham’s Bosom instead of the bad place Sheol/Hades, he was saved in a sense.
In a sense, I guess you could say that. He was there to wait on Christ to come free him.

You said that Bob Enyart believes that salvation could be lost outside of the dispensation Paul preached.
From what I understand Bob does believe that.

You said you didn’t believe salvation could ever be lost.
Yes, I did say that.

Apart from The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace, what dispensation do you believe salvation could never be lost in?
The one prior. Also known as "Acts 2", or "The New Covenant." And the next one.

Will salvation in the Great Tribulation be by law and works for Gentiles and Jews, just Jews, or just the 144,000 Jews?
It will revert back to the plan just prior to the dispensation of grace [alone]. They will be expected to keep the law [except for sacrifice, obviously] as best they can. And it will be that way for Jews and Gentiles alike.

How does your Acts 9 Dispensationalism differ from Acts 2 Dispensationalism?
Acts 2 believes in works based salvation. They beleive one must confess their sins on a regular basis, the ones they can remember anyway [and ask God to forgive the ones they can't, as well]. They also believe you must have faith, of course. Pretty much the plan just prior to the dispensation of grace [alone]. They believe salvation can be lost, now. And they also believe everyone, even Christians, are sinners, and that we must struggle with our sins for the rest of our lives, and that we must work to keep ourselves from sin. They do not understand the finished work of Christ on the cross, and that He has already conquered sin, and that all we must do is trust in Him, and our sins are overcome. We do not have to struggle/fight or work to overcome anything at all. Christ already has. At least, those are the differences between the two today. However, the period prior to the dispensation of grace [alone] was not one where they beleived they could lose their salvation over a single sin. Those who believe in it today do beleive that. But, the 12 disciples, and their converts may have believed that one could lose their salvation by walking away from Christ. And if they believed it, they were right. And also, they may have been able to lose their salvation if they walked aaway from the law, prior to the dispensation of grace [alone].

How did your walk with God suffer greatly from Acts 2 Dispensationalism?
I was convinced I could lose my salvation over one sin, and that it was therefore lost anytime I committed a sin. That's a terrible way to live, because you're always scared, and worried to death. I also believed I was a slave to my sin. Even though we read Romans 6, it was interpreted as "You are no longer a slave to sin, but you are." And it doesn't even imply such a thing. I was told I was a sinner, and would always be a sinner. I now know that was a lie.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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godrulz said:
Why? The majority of believers are Acts 2 and are doing just fine growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ unto maturity. Dispensational views are no excuse for your weaknesses and they are not a cure all if you have now found victory.
See my answer to lightninboy, in post # 443
 

lightninboy

Member
Dear Lighthouse,

Thank you for your reply.

So you did mean that Jews were saved by grace and not law after the Resurrection or Pentecost.

I know that Jesus and the Father are one, but where did Jesus tell them to keep the Law?

You said no one could keep the law perfectly and salvation is by grace alone.

Then obviously salvation in every Dispensation must be by grace alone.

You said:
The dispensation of grace [alone] started when Paul started preaching it. And Jews could be included. Paul said so, when he stated that there were no differences between Jew and Gentile in the Body. The dispensation of grace [alone] started when Paul started preaching it. And Jews could be included. Paul said so, when he stated that there were no differences between Jew and Gentile in the Body.

So the living Jews could drop keeping the law and still be saved, or did they have to keep the law until they died like Clete said?

You started a new Dispensation between Acts 2 and Acts 9?

Bob Hill says the Jews of the Circumcision were under the Dispensation of Law. Wasn’t salvation by grace alone under the whole Dispensation of Law?

The Gentiles in the Great Tribulation will have to become proselyte Jews to be saved?

If someone in the Great Tribulation found a Bible and believed for everlasting life, he wouldn’t be saved?

Why not keep sacrificing? Revelation says something about the Temple and sacrifice?

If you believe salvation is always by grace and not law/works, is that really different from Acts 2 Dispensationalism?

Acts 2 Dispensationalism can teach salvation by grace through faith too.
 

lightninboy

Member
Clete said:
This question makes no sense and is unanswerable.
It sounds like you need to read this...
The Twelve Dispensations by Bob Hill
Scofield said there are seven Dispensations.
Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and the Kingdom.

Bob Hill says there are twelve.
Innocence
Conscience
Human Government
It is difficult to discern the method of salvation in the second and third of these first three dispensations. God seems to demand sacrifices, but we do not find the instructions for the sacrifices. It appears that they would be saved if they believed God and brought the required sacrifice. When we consider the fourth dispensation, The Dispensation of Promise, the doubt is removed, and clearer instruction are given.
Promise
Faith alone.
Gen 15:6
Confirmed as
unconditional
Gen 15:8-18
Gal 3:17
Forever
Gen 13:15

We find the greatest change in God’s method of salvation in the Hebrew Scriptures from the fourth, The Dispensation of Promise, to the fifth dispensation, The Dispensation of Circumcision.
THE COVENANT OF
CIRCUMCISION
Circumcision
Faith, works,
circumcision
Gen 17:14
Gen 22:12
Jam 2:21-24
Forever
Gen 17:13
Abraham was justified by his faith-work of offering up his son. That was God’s method of salvation just as circumcision was necessary. The faith-work did not provide the righteousness. Only Jesus Christ’s faithfulness could do that. That is shown in Romans, Galatians, and Philippians.

Man acquires by faith that righteousness which Christ provided by dying. In each dispensation, man must do by faith what God requires. Under circumcision, God required faith-works. Under The Dispensation of Grace, He requires faith apart from works.

If you consult the chart at the middle of this booklet, you will see that seven of the twelve dispensations are under the influence of the circumcision covenant. We must conclude that the circumcision covenant even includes the new covenant, for Genesis 17:7,13, and 19 all say it is everlasting.

Law
Under this dispensation, God’s method for having His righteousness imputed now includes faith-law-keeping. The works of the law didn’t provide anything. But when a man continuously kept God’s law, by faith, he appropriated God’s righteousness.

Kingdom
Promised
2 Sa 7:11-Malachi
This kingdom promised to David will last forever.

Kingdom
Proclaimed
John’s ministry – John 1:19
Repentance
Faith, works of the law,
circumcision,
baptism, abide,
forgive
His ministry was to bring salvation to the nation.
Because it was such an important part of his ministry, we must understand baptism and its relationship to Israel. Its history is very important. This water rite was explained for Israel under the law in Num 19:9,10,17-21:

Kingdom
Offered
Acts 2 – 9
Repentance
Faith, works of the law,
circumcision,
baptism, abide

Grace
Mystery, Grace
Fullness
of Times
Faith alone
Rom 4:4,5
Tit 3:5,6
Parts of the following:
Heb; James;
1 & 2 Pet;
1,2&3 John;
Jude; were partially in effect until the circumcision believers died out.
Till the rapture

The Covenant of
Circumcision
Resumes

Tribulation
Repentance
faith, works of the law,
circumcision, baptism, abide,
endure

1,000 year
Kingdom
To eternal kingdom
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I tend to agree with Scofield more than I do with Bob on the actual number of dispensations but Pastor Hill's scholarship is second to none and so I would not presume to debate him on such a relatively minor point. The point of posting the link wasn't about how many dispensations there have been but rather that there have been dispensations and to give you an idea of what they were and more importantly what a dispensation is in the first place. Did you find it helpful?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
lightninboy said:
Welcome back, Clete.

I posted Bob Hill's point of view because it could be helpful in my discussion with Lighthouse.
Oh! You quoted me and so I thought your post was directed at me.

Never mind then.
Carry on!
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Damian responded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hill

There are extremely important, major differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the Circumcision Dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptism are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul.

Damian

Apparently, there are some here who are actually capable of reading Mark16:15,16. It becomes tiresome for me when others insist that Jesus did not teach that both belief and baptism were required for salvation in the Great Commission.

Jesus did teach that both belief and baptism were required for salvation in the Great Commission, but those requirements were for the dispensation previous to the Dispensation of Grace.

In the Dispensation of Grace, we must sincerely believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior - that's all! :third:

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 
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Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
When the Philippian jailor in Acts 16:29-31 got saved, what did he do? He 29 called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

What did they say he had to do? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!

He did, and he got saved.

Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
Jesus did teach that both belief and baptism were required for salvation in the Great Commission, but those requirements were for in the dispensation previous to the Dispensation of Grace.

In the Dispensation of Grace, we must sincerely believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior - that's all!

Okay. But why are there certain evangelicals on this forum who claim that Mark 16:15,16 does not teach this? I find it very contradictory for someone to profess that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God and then summarily dismissing this passage.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Clete,

I'm not rigid on the 12 dispensations. I have read some excellent theologions who believe there are over 20 dispensations. Others as few as 3. It all depends on how ticky tacky you are. I'm kinda ticky tacky.

In my first 15 years of being a pastor, I changed my mind so many times as I studied God's Word, that I had a post on the pulpit that said, "Please don't agree with me, I already changed my mind." It was only exagerated a little.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Damian posted something I wrote and responded,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hill

Jesus did teach that both belief and baptism were required for salvation in the Great Commission, but those requirements were for in the dispensation previous to the Dispensation of Grace.

In the Dispensation of Grace, we must sincerely believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior - that's all!


Damian,
Okay. But why are there certain evangelicals on this forum who claim that Mark 16:15,16 does not teach this? I find it very contradictory for someone to profess that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God and then summarily dismissing this passage.

Damian, it isn't summarily dismissed. It was applicable in the dispensation before the Dispensation of Grace that was given to Paul by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ. Christ gave Paul a new program that was different.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
I think it is very important for us to understand that Mid Acts dispensational theology is the theology that recognizes that God changes His program in His dealings with mankind.

A dispensational change is when God changes the “house rules” for mankind in the Old Testament and the New Testament, as he relates to God.

We can see in the Bible that God has changed the method of salvation from one dispensation to another.

Other dispensational changes have to do with the state of man. When Adam and Eve sinned, God had to deal with them with the new conscience that they had after they disobeyed God and ate of the forbidden tree.

Before that, they were in innocence.

Therefore, Adam and Eve were in two different dispensations, Innocence and Conscience.

The biggest change in all of the dispensations was when God changed from dealing with Israel as His special people to bringing in the mystery dispensation, where He was dealing with all of mankind and man was justified by faith alone, rather than by faith which had to be shown by the works of the law.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
Damian, it isn't summarily dismissed. It was applicable in the dispensation before the Dispensation of Grace that was given to Paul by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ. Christ gave Paul a new program that was different.

I understand the dispensationlist (e.g. Bob Hill) does not summarily dismiss the passage. If I understand you correctly, Mark 16:15,16 applies to the Jews during the dispensation of the circumcision. But other evangelicals - who do not hold this dispensational view - refuse to acknowledge that the passage actually says that both belief and baptism are required for salvation. Why do they refuse to acknowledge this?
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Damian,

That is a very good question. Especially since Peter said in Acts 2:38 Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We understand that they were in a different dispensation. God didn't start the Dispensation of Grace until He raised up Saul/Paul to be the Apostle to recieve the new program.

Bob Hill
 

Damian

New member
Bob Hill said:
Damian,

That is a very good question. Especially since Peter said in Acts 2:38 Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We understand that they were in a different dispensation. God didn't start the Dispensation of Grace until He raised up Saul/Paul to be the Apostle to recieve the new program.

Bob Hill

Yes. But this doesn't answer why nondispensationalists refuse to acknowedge that Mark 16:15,16 teaches that belief and baptism are required for salvation. Isn't it because Mark 16:15,16 doesn't fit into their preconceived theology?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Damian said:
What is "MAD" and how does that differ from your view?

MAD is Mid-Acts dispensationalism, I think. Why not ask its proponents? It sees Paul's conversion and ministry as pivotal in introducing the gospel of grace for the Church Age. It has two NT gospels: the circumcision gospel to those of Jewish background preached by Peter, James, John, etc. and the uncircumcision gospel for the Gentiles preached by Paul. The former is faith + works + baptism, etc. The latter is grace/faith alone. Someone else could summarize it better.

The usual Acts 2 dispensational view sees Pentecost as the birth of the Church by the Holy Spirit. The person and work of Christ were preached and Jew and Gentile were becoming one in Christ. There were some bumps on the road during this transitional period, but grace/faith did not have to wait for Paul. Paul had a unique ministry to the Gentiles, but it was not a different gospel than was started to be preached before his conversion.
 
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