The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[godrulz]

Read your Bible. They went to Abraham's Bosom.

They initially went to Abe's place as I have argued from Lk. 16 with Chandler the JW. Other verses in the gospels show that Abraham would be in heaven in the last days. We also know that the righteous compartment of Hades was emptied around the resurrection, so I am correct to say that they did go to heaven (that is where they are now) as opposed to a place of torment. We are saying the same thing, but about different timelines.

 

[Bob Hill]

However, the method of salvation - what a person had to believe - was different from what we have to do to be saved in the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill

 

[Damian]

However, the method of salvation - what a person had to believe - was different from what we have to do to be saved in the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill

And what was the difference Pastor Hill?

 

[lightninboy]

For Lighthouse:

How can you possibly say you agree with Bob Hill after all those articles and links I posted saying that salvation has never been by works, making sacrifices, keeping the Law, circumcision and baptism? :sigh:

I looked at pages 15-17 of the TOL thread Gospel to the circumcision.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28273&page=15&pp=15&highlight=aztek

I saw this in post #228:

I don't believe salvation could ever be lost, and I'm neither Calvinist or Arminian. And Bob isn't either, but he does believe salvation could be lost outside of the dispensation Paul preached.

and this from post #238:

I say OT saints weren't saved, because Christ had not yet come. They waited for Him in Abraham's Bosom. But they did keep the law. However, after Christ died and rose, the Jewish converts were saved, and they still kept the law. But the law could never save them, only Christ saves. I am one of the few, if not the only, Acts 9er who believes those who were saved by Christ could never lose their salvation, no matter their dispensation.

When did Jews become included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace?

Please try to tell me why Jews today are included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace but won't be in the Great Tribulation.

Wouldn't it be easier to go along with Acts 2 dispys instead of Acts 9 dispys found on TOL?

 

[patman]

I agree that there is a gap in the prophecy between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. This is the mystery of the hidden Church Age. The NT presupposes the imminent return of Christ, yet it did not happen when they rejected the King leading to a postponement of the Kingdom. I am Acts 2 dispensational and Open Theist, so I do not reject eschatological implications of the dynamic of the first century.

Walvoord and Pentecost would argue for the gap understanding of the 70 weeks (see Walvoord's Daniel commentary and Pentecost's 'Things to Come').

Good that you are at least in the ball park there

Thanks for clearing that up. I am glad you recognize the mystery and the hidden church age. I guess you I should ask what you think the hidden church age is? I think it is an era of grace by faith, where as before it was grace through practice. What is your take and why?

 

[patman]

For Lighthouse:

How can you possibly say you agree with Bob Hill after all those articles and links I posted saying that salvation has never been by works, making sacrifices, keeping the Law, circumcision and baptism? :sigh:

I looked at pages 15-17 of the TOL thread Gospel to the circumcision.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28273&page=15&pp=15&highlight=aztek

I saw this in post #228:

I don't believe salvation could ever be lost, and I'm neither Calvinist or Arminian. And Bob isn't either, but he does believe salvation could be lost outside of the dispensation Paul preached.

and this from post #238:

I say OT saints weren't saved, because Christ had not yet come. They waited for Him in Abraham's Bosom. But they did keep the law. However, after Christ died and rose, the Jewish converts were saved, and they still kept the law. But the law could never save them, only Christ saves. I am one of the few, if not the only, Acts 9er who believes those who were saved by Christ could never lose their salvation, no matter their dispensation.

When did Jews become included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace?

Please try to tell me why Jews today are included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace but won't be in the Great Tribulation.

Wouldn't it be easier to go along with Acts 2 dispys instead of Acts 9 dispys found on TOL?

lightninboy, forgive me for jumping in the middle of this conversation. I hope this point I have to make will clear a few things up for you.

You said you believed the OT people went to Abraham's bosom. Not all who died went there. Jesus tells us about that in his parable about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-28(read it here ).

Note in the parable that the sinner went to Hades. Also, recall that in revelation, Hades spits its prisoners into the lake of fire, hell. So before Christ, the choice was the same, accept God, find paradise, reject him find torment. And both were eternal.

If the world were 6000 years old, there are already people in Hades who have been there for 6000 years. Can you imagine 6000 years of that with no end?

But anyway, there was always choice A and choice B, with consequence X and Y. What mid acts believers propose is that the WAY the choice is made is different now than it was in the past.

In the past, the way to choose required faith and practice, and that produced grace for your sins. They followed the laws God revealed to them.

Now God has revealed his son to us, and grace now comes by faith alone. In the end, faith was the real key for both ways, but faith now is maintained even when we do not follow the law by grace.

 

[godrulz]

Good that you are at least in the ball park there

Thanks for clearing that up. I am glad you recognize the mystery and the hidden church age. I guess you I should ask what you think the hidden church age is? I think it is an era of grace by faith, where as before it was grace through practice. What is your take and why?

The Church Age is an age of Grace, not a dispensation of law. However, I see grace and faith in the OT, not faith + works (see Rom. 4 for Pauline confirmation). The outward expressions of inward faith did differ. National Israel had different external requirements in the Old Covenant to set them apart from the pagan nations (circumcision, dietary/ceremonial laws, etc.). The New Covenant is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one in Christ. We do not express our faith with the same externals. Believer's baptism is never regenerational nor is it a work. Instead of circumcision, we have a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. One demonstration of our identification with Christ's death and resurrection is symbolized in baptism, which was normatively linked with belief (without being a requirement for salvation).

The OT also had shadows and types since the Lamb of God did not come in reality yet. The NT repeats most of the decalogue (except the change from the Sabbath to the Lord's Day). OT saints were not saved by circumcision nor animal sacrifices. Outward rituals can never make us right with a holy God in any sense.

Grace has always been the grounds for salvation with faith (expressed outwardly in different ways in different dispensations) the condition for appropriating this grace. Themes of obedience vs disobedience flow out of love and faith. They are not meritorious works or self-righteous conditions of salvation.

So, I find Mid-Acts deductive and arbitary and not consistent with all the relevant texts (relies on proof texting and preconceived theology in my humble opinion).

 

[Bob Hill]

In Acts 10:34,35 it says: Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

In Acts 2:38, Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That's not how we are saved today, in the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Long before the Dispensation of Grace started, salvation depended on a lot of things.

Psalm 15 LORD, who may abide in Your tabernacle? Who may dwell in Your holy hill? 2 He who walks uprightly, And works righteousness, And speaks the truth in his heart; 3 He who does not backbite with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor does he take up a reproach against his friend; 4 In whose eyes a vile person is despised, But he honors those who fear the LORD; He who swears to his own hurt and does not change; 3 He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.

In Christ my Savior,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

In contrast, Paul wrote in Rom 3:27,28 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

Peter understood grace. Paul went to consult Peter initially to hear about his eyewitness accounts of the resurrection. Paul did not supplant a Petrine gospel, but clarified it in light of the transition from Old to New Covenant (not circ. to uncirc. gospel).

 

[Bob Hill]

godrulz,

I'm sorry that I disagree with you in this area!

Paul was the man that God raised up to go to the Gentiles. He was also given a new gospel.

Gal 2-3:14 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man - for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 “For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 “For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 “I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Chapter 3:1-14 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? – 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

God raised up the Apostle Paul and gave him a different gospel and dispensation from Peter and the eleven, who preached the gospel of the circumcision.

Paul was given a dispensation that was a mystery, never revealed before, the Dispensation of Grace. 1 Cor 9:17-18 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a dispensation. 18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.

Eph 3:1-4 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; 2 if indeed you have heard of the Dispensation of the Grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

We find in Acts 15 that Paul went up to Jerusalem to tell them about the new gospel that God gave to him according to Gal 1:11-2:10. The Holy Spirit showed the apostles that Paul’s gospel was valid at that council.

Eph 1:5-10 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 [Here’s the mystery which was never made before God raised up the Apostle Paul.] that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ. 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one, the all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him.

This gospel that was given to Paul was a different gospel from anything before. That’s what the Galatian material is all about: Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for [eis] the apostleship of the circumcision also worked effectively in me toward [eis] the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to [eis] the Gentiles and they to [eis] the circumcision.

Paul was faithful to this new program that God gave him. It tells us of his faithfulness in Col 1:24-29: I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

Unfortunately, many of those posting on TOL are not faithful to the doctrine God gave to Paul. We should be faithful to this dispensational program that God gave Paul for us. Most do not even know that the Bible places so much importance on the Dispensation of the Mystery. Most Christians are not even aware that God says we all “should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the Dispensation of the Mystery.”

Because of this, there are 2 spheres where believers go when they die. For those who were saved before Paul, the circumcision and proselytes, they go into the kingdom promised to David. Christ will be the king.

For the body of Christ of this dispensation of grace, we have a heavenly hope. Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are extremely important, major differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the Circumcision Dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptism are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

I agree that Paul was uniquely raised up to take the gospel of grace, the gospel of Christ crucified and risen from the dead, primarily to the Gentiles. Meanwhile, Peter and others took the same gospel to those with Jewish background. You keep taking the gospel of the Americans to your people, and I will keep taking the gospel of the Canadians to my people (they both are the same Christocentric, grace/faith gospel).

Do not take it personally if I respectfully disgree with you. Hey, we both disagree with Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc. on many points.

I can argue for a distinction between the Old and New Covenant. I can see the Spirit's work during the transition period of the early church (even to the point where Paul tuned Peter in about certain things), but I cannot see that two NT gospels exist AFTER the 'it is finished' work of Christ on the cross and risen from the dead. I think you underestimate the work of the Spirit at Pentecost and overestimate what Paul received first hand. Just because Jesus reveals Himself and the gospel of grace to a Muslim in the mountains of India (as He has in modern times) directly, does not mean that it is a different gospel than you and I have preached in our lives and ministries, does it?

 

[Damian]

There are extremely important, major differences between our Dispensation of Grace and the Circumcision Dispensation. Works for salvation and water baptism are two of the big differences between the circumcision gospel and the gospel that God gave to Paul.

Apparently, there are some here who are actually capable of reading Mark16:15,16. It becomes tiresome for me when others insist that Jesus did not teach that both belief and baptism were required for salvation in the Great Commission.

 

[Damian]

I can argue for a distinction between the Old and New Covenant. I can see the Spirit's work during the transition period of the early church (even to the point where Paul tuned Peter in about certain things), but I cannot see that two NT gospels exist AFTER the 'it is finished' work of Christ on the cross and risen from the dead. I think you underestimate the work of the Spirit at Pentecost and overestimate what Paul received first hand. Just because Jesus reveals Himself and the gospel of grace to a Muslim in the mountains of India (as He has in modern times) directly, does not mean that it is a different gospel than you and I have preached in our lives and ministries, does it?

What you cannot do is to continue to make this pretension that you believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God while failing to acknowledge key biblical passages. Mark 16:15,16 says that both belief and baptism are required for salvation. To say anything different is to pander to a pre-conceived theology and engage in intellectual dishonesty.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15,16

 

[Lighthouse]

For Lighthouse:

How can you possibly say you agree with Bob Hill after all those articles and links I posted saying that salvation has never been by works, making sacrifices, keeping the Law, circumcision and baptism? :sigh:

I said I agree with him for the most part. What I disagree on is that anyone was ever saved by the law. For one, I don't believe anyone was saved before Christ, and two, the law condemns, it doesn't save. However, the converts after the cross did have to keep the law, until Christ met Saul on the road to Damascus.

I looked at pages 15-17 of the TOL thread Gospel to the circumcision.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28273&page=15&pp=15&highlight=aztek

I saw this in post #228:

I don't believe salvation could ever be lost, and I'm neither Calvinist or Arminian. And Bob isn't either, but he does believe salvation could be lost outside of the dispensation Paul preached.

and this from post #238:

I say OT saints weren't saved, because Christ had not yet come. They waited for Him in Abraham's Bosom. But they did keep the law. However, after Christ died and rose, the Jewish converts were saved, and they still kept the law. But the law could never save them, only Christ saves. I am one of the few, if not the only, Acts 9er who believes those who were saved by Christ could never lose their salvation, no matter their dispensation.

When did Jews become included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace?

Please try to tell me why Jews today are included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace but won't be in the Great Tribulation.

Wouldn't it be easier to go along with Acts 2 dispys instead of Acts 9 dispys found on TOL?

The dispensation of grace will no longer be in effect during the tribulation. It's as simple as that. But for now, there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, we are all one.

 

[Lighthouse]

Also, I used to be an Acts 2er. My walk with God suffered greatly because of it.

 

[lightninboy]

I said I agree with him for the most part. What I disagree on is that anyone was ever saved by the law. For one, I don't believe anyone was saved before Christ, and two, the law condemns, it doesn't save. However, the converts after the cross did have to keep the law, until Christ met Saul on the road to Damascus.


The dispensation of grace will no longer be in effect during the tribulation. It's as simple as that. But for now, there is no Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ, we are all one.

Also, I used to be an Acts 2er. My walk with God suffered greatly because of it.

Dear Lighthouse,

On the Gospel to the circumcision thread, you seemed to say that after Pentecost the saved Jews kept the Law but didn’t really have to because they were really saved by grace.

Now you agree with Bob Hill and Clete that the Jews alive at Pentecost had to obey the Law until they died or else they were out of salvation?

You say no one was ever saved by the law and that the law condemns and doesn’t save.

Then you say that the Old Testament saints kept the law.

You say converts after the cross did have to keep the law, until Christ met Saul on the road to Damascus.

Were Jews included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace exactly as Saul became blinded or when? What about the idea that they had to keep the law until they died? If you can’t prove when Jews were included in The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace, how can we be sure they really are?

You say you don’t believe anyone was saved before Christ.

But if one made it into Abraham’s Bosom instead of the bad place Sheol/Hades, he was saved in a sense.

You said that Bob Enyart believes that salvation could be lost outside of the dispensation Paul preached.

You said you didn’t believe salvation could ever be lost.

Apart from The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace, what dispensation do you believe salvation could never be lost in?

Will salvation in the Great Tribulation be by law and works for Gentiles and Jews, just Jews, or just the 144,000 Jews?

How does your Acts 9 Dispensationalism differ from Acts 2 Dispensationalism?

How did your walk with God suffer greatly from Acts 2 Dispensationalism?