The Walk-Away

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi

Sozo said: “No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own.”


Those who are not in Christ have also been purchased, they just “deny the one who bought them”.

So you believe God forces people to live with Him who decide they don’t want a relationship with Him? Why then, didn’t he force the angels to live with him?
First of all, the angels have not been purchased. Angels are angels, not men. Should we discuss cats & dogs too?

Secondly, I believe my points have been made, and are indisputable. Either Jesus is telling the truth or He is lying. Which one do you believe?

Also, unless you are in Christ you have not been redeemed.

No one who is in Christ will decide not to have a relationship with Him, it is not even an option for them to do so.

I really question if a high percentage of the people on this site have ever come to understand what it means to be saved.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Shimei said:
Pharaoh's heart was already hard; having truth shoved in your face will either break you down and soften your heart or make it harder. Pharaoh had a choice, he could have repented.
IIRC, doesn't the text indicate that, on at least one occasion, Pharaoh wanted to let Israel go, but YHWH "hardened his heart" so that he did not do so - i.e. that YHWH did something not in line with Pharaoh's will... :think:
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Zakath, you are not correctly recalling the Biblical story, but you may be correctly recalling what some Calvinist teachers taught you.

Saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart is no different than saying that God made Pharaoh mad. People often get mad when they are shown definitively to be wrong (surely you can relate), but it's not that those who proved them wrong forced them to become bitte, angry, or spiteful.

It's not like God sprinkled magical hardening dust on Pharaoh's heart. Why would God command Pharaoh (through Moses) to let His people go, and then force Pharaoh to disobey? :hammer:
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Zakath said:
IIRC, doesn't the text indicate that, on at least one occasion, Pharaoh wanted to let Israel go, but YHWH "hardened his heart" so that he did not do so - i.e. that YHWH did something not in line with Pharaoh's will... :think:

A simple illustration:
Pharaoh’s heart was like a lump of clay. God’s power and glory shined down on Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh’s heart will either melt (repent) of become hard (unrepentant). God knew Pharaoh’s character and what would happen if He showed His power and glory.

Being able to predict some people's behavior if you prove them wrong is not that difficult to do.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Turbo said:
Zakath, you are not correctly recalling the Biblical story, but you may be correctly recalling what some Calvinist teachers taught you.

... :doh:... here we go again...

  • Example 1:
    "...And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go..." Exodus 4:21

In Example 1, the construction is YHWH promises to do something to a person that will cause the person to act a certain way. One logical way to read this is that YHWH is contravening the free will of Pharaoh by hardening Pharaoh's heart.

  • Example 2:
    "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." Exodus 7:3-4

In Example 2, YHWH again states that he will act to prevent Pharaoh from listening to Moses. He also states his reasons for doing this - so that he can "lay his hand on Egypt", i.e. punish Egypt. Here, YHWH effectively sets up Pharaoh and punishes all of Egypt when Pharaoh does exactly what YHWH wants him to do.

  • Example 3:
    "And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." Exodus 8:32
In Exodus 8, Pharaoh hardens his own heart. The language is clearly different from that of YHWH's threat and promise in the preceeding texts.

  • Example 4:
    "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. " Exodus 9:12
In Example 4, YHWH again gets credit for Pharaoh's condition.

  • Example 5:
    "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD." Exodus 10:1-2

In Example 5, YHWH expands his intervention to the servants of Pharaoh as well as the monarch himself. All for the stated purpose of visiting further punishments upon Egypt.

  • Example 6:
    "Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you. Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only...But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. " Exodus 10:16-17 and 20

In Example 6, Pharaoh repents of his sin and asks Moses to intervene for him before YHWH. Moses, being a good prophet, does so and YHWH removes the latest curse from Egypt. YHWH immediately turns around and harden's Pharaoh's heart again!

  • Example 7:
    "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Exodus 10:27

In Example 7, Pharaoh is again victimized by the deity who hardens his heart.

The story goes on, but even you should be able to see the pattern from seven examples. ;)

Saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart is no different than saying that God made Pharaoh mad. People often get mad when they are shown definitively to be wrong (surely you can relate), but it's not that those who proved them wrong forced them to become bitte, angry, or spiteful.
Frankly I find such an interpretation of the plainly written text incredibly naive, Tubo. The idea that, Ramses, a monarch of the Egyptian empire and one of the greatest generals of his day would bring his people to destitution, famine, and pestilence because he got irritated shows a unrealistic view of human thinking. One does not rise to such power and military ability without being able to control one's temper.

It's not like God sprinkled magical hardening dust on Pharaoh's heart. Why would God command Pharaoh (through Moses) to let His people go, and then force Pharaoh to disobey? :hammer:
The text answers that question plainly on two different occasions...

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." Exodus 7:3-4

"I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD." Exodus 10:1-2




"
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Shimei said:
A simple illustration:
Pharaoh’s heart was like a lump of clay. God’s power and glory shined down on Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh’s heart will either melt (repent) of become hard (unrepentant). God knew Pharaoh’s character and what would happen if He showed His power and glory.

Being able to predict some people's behavior if you prove them wrong is not that difficult to do.
See if my reply to Turbo's question helps clarify my thinking for you.
 

On Fire

New member
If Easter says anything to us today, it says this: You can put truth in a grave, but it won't stay there. You can nail it to a cross, wrap it in winding sheets and shut it up in a tomb, but it will rise! -Clarence W. Hall
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
On Fire said:
If Easter says anything to us today...
Remember, that's "if"...

For some of us, Easter is merely another Sunday.

But for some folks like you, it has particular meaning. Enjoy your holy day. :thumb:
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
On Fire said:
If Easter says anything to us today, it says this: You can put truth in a grave, but it won't stay there. You can nail it to a cross, wrap it in winding sheets and shut it up in a tomb, but it will rise! -Clarence W. Hall
A pity that comment is not germain to the discussion here.

Perhaps you should've posted it in the ECT forum.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
... which I plan to spend most of priming and painting inside the new wing on Castle Zakath... :D
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Personally I'm better for it. In every way.

I cannot think of a single thing I honestly miss about the church. Not the rituals, the liturgy, the mystery, not the doctrine. About the only thing I do miss, from time to time, is the fellowship and camaraderie. But that's a pretty lousy reason to stay in a church.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
granite1010 said:
Personally I'm better for it. In every way.

I cannot think of a single thing I honestly miss about the church.
Agreed.

Not the rituals, the liturgy, the mystery,...
I can always join the Masons or the Moose Lodge...

... not the doctrine.
If I want to debate doctrine, there's always one of those fundy online theology boards. ;)

About the only thing I do miss, from time to time, is the fellowship and camaraderie. But that's a pretty lousy reason to stay in a church.
I honestly found more camaraderie at local social organizations than in churches I attended.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Not asking anybody to be surprised. But it's an honest appraisal of my situation and Zakath's.

I got beyond the Feel Guilty on Sunday For Not Going to Church phase a while ago.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
On Fire said:
You mean you USED to feel guilty for not going to church? Man, you DO have issues.
I never did... I did have to get used to having extra time, but never had any guilt about not attending religious services.
 
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