The Unofficial "Mocking T.V. Evangelists" thread

aikido7

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Shamalamamamamamamamaama


"We've seen midgets grow!"

There's a lot of "ShamalamadingdongYabbadabbadoo" going on but you'll hear it in there somewhere.
Evangelicals today are no different from the folks described in the Bible in one important way.

They are sometimes dishonest and veritable thieves, and/or they are genuinely expressing God on earth as they see it. In other words, they are no different than the posters on TOL.

The sense of the holy and the sacred are always mediated through different cultures and different theologies. God is the same (in my belief) but the expression of him will of course be different wherever it is found.

When the Spanish person says the word "mesa" we English translate the word as "table.".

Well, what IS it? "Table" or "Mesa"?
Is it Protestantism or Catholicism?
Is it Islam or Judaism?

It's the same thing, the same concept, mediated through different cultures,with different myths, different histories and different geographical and climactic experiences..
 

PureX

Well-known member
Shamalamamamamamamamaama


"We've seen midgets grow!"

There's a lot of "ShamalamadingdongYabbadabbadoo" going on but you'll hear it in there somewhere.
What's with this dude's eyebrows? Is he trying to do some sort of Spock impersonation?



You know, it's a shame about these guys, because not every TV preacher is a charlatan. I have seen a few over the years that I believe were very true, honest, and helpful servants of Christ. Unfortunately, these charlatans give them all a bad rep.
 

patrick jane

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What's with this dude's eyebrows? Is he trying to do some sort of Spock impersonation?



You know, it's a shame about these guys, because not every TV preacher is a charlatan. I have seen a few over the years that I believe were very true, honest, and helpful servants of Christ. Unfortunately, these charlatans give them all a bad rep.

I think there's a song there - " I have see the midgets groooooww "
 

Danoh

New member
Evangelicals today are no different from the folks described in the Bible in one important way.

They are sometimes dishonest and veritable thieves, and/or they are genuinely expressing God on earth as they see it. In other words, they are no different than the posters on TOL.

The sense of the holy and the sacred are always mediated through different cultures and different theologies. God is the same (in my belief) but the expression of him will of course be different wherever it is found.

When the Spanish person says the word "mesa" we English translate the word as "table.".

Well, what IS it? "Table" or "Mesa"?
Is it Protestantism or Catholicism?
Is it Islam or Judaism?

It's the same thing, the same concept, mediated through different cultures,with different myths, different histories and different geographical and climactic experiences..

As usual, you walk right past the obvious. The issues "lost in translation" due to the filter that is "interpretation."

Not to mention, the driving motive behind the interpretation.

For even when the issue is a "good intention," the aphorism that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" still holds.

Give a puppy a pain killer the strength of which is meant for a full grown animal, but that you "believed might alleviate its suffering too," and you still kill the poor thing.

Matthew 25:

24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Face it, you continue to read your moral relativism in to these things that are, either black, or white, not some in between.

The grey (and it is meant to be only temporary) is allowed only in the middle between interpretations from within the camp, not without.
 

aikido7

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.

For even when the issue is a "good intention," the aphorism that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" still holds.
I am only speaking from my own experience, based on my relationship with Jesus, my mediation training and practice and my attempt to live a nonviolent life as Jesus's life continually informs me.

I usually always have good intentions, so I suspect others do as well. Sometimes, though, I am struck by the truth that the EFFECTS of my underlying intentions is NOT good.

Give a puppy a pain killer the strength of which is meant for a full grown animal, but that you "believed might alleviate its suffering too," and you still kill the poor thing.
Exactly. I agree. Try to avoid the extremes.

The hazards of living in the material world means that we will "sin." With puppies and people.

Because I am a Christian, I think it is profoundly important for me to discover not only what a biblical verse or passage means to me in the present, but to also study and dig and try to discover what that verse or passage meant to its original writers, readers and listeners.

The translation I accept--based on the conjectures of historians who know much more than I do--is that sin means literally "missing the mark." And I miss the mark every day in big ways and small. I am just glad my faith now gives me the courage to be accountable for that.

Matthew 25:

24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To me after the study I have devoted to the parables, I have learned this about the parable:

A "talent" is an undoubtedly large sum of money. Historical researchers have determined that a talent is 6,000 dearii. And one denarius was a day’s wage. This would be the equivalent of 15 years of wages for a day laborer!.

But parables are not literal or meant to be taken as allegories. So the fact about the money is unimportant, especially as Luke’s version uses a single pound per servant which is much
less.

Matthew may have inflated the numbers for the sake of making the point. But who really knows the mind (or INTENTIONS) of anyone in the remote past--Or even the present)?

The meaning for my own life that I take away from this would translate to my modern notion of "talent" referring to the gifts and abilities that I can easily apply to the use of my God-given gifts.

I also realize that while this understanding is useful for me, it may be too narrow. God is wholly infinite and I am condemned to be finite.

But rather than assume a parable literally talks about real, specific actual characters Jesus picked up, I like to focus on the meaning of a verse from Jesus, much like his anti-fundamentalist, literalist rant to Nicodemus in John.

I accept that Mark was written first and both Matthew and Luke used him for ordering the events of their gospels. But all the authors have different agendas.

At this point in my studies, I believe the thrust of the parable remains to me that that each of us is accountable to God for what he has done with what he has been given. In my documents I cited Luke 12:48 as a way to explain what I think Jesus's intentions were.

I am not going back and teaching my method of historical exegesis to you, however. Both of us may get bored if I do.
Face it, you continue to read your moral relativism in to these things that are, either black, or white, not some in between.
I don't see poetry, myth or parable as propositional theology that traffics in black/white, either/or formulations.

Logic and rationality are different qualities, however. And for myself, living in the modern scientific world that I do, have to provide a place for them in my toolkit.

But sacred and holy language is far from rationality or logical.
In my way of seeing things anyway, I use the "relative" terms of language when needed. But when I confront Jesus, he quickly disturbs me and awakens me from the all-too-human sleep of living in a conventional and rational world.

The grey (and it is meant to be only temporary) is allowed only in the middle between interpretations from within the camp, not without.
Your opinion here comes across too much as didactic and almost tyrannical. It puts me off because it sounds like you are making a pronouncement that is way off your own purview. You may believe the text is "inerrant" but it does not give you license to assume your theological interpretations are inerrant as well.

I hope I have answered your points respectfully. Many times I have noticed when I introduce someone to different ideas, they either become unreasonably angry or else think I am putting them down in some sort of "victim" mode.

My intentions are not to come across like that, but if I have please tell me specifics (actually quoted) and we can certainly go over them together. I need to be policed on my own communication skills because I want them to be as direct and focused and respectful as I can make them.
 

aikido7

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As usual, you walk right past the obvious. The issues "lost in translation" due to the filter that is "interpretation."

Not to mention, the driving motive behind the interpretation.

For even when the issue is a "good intention," the aphorism that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" still holds.

Give a puppy a pain killer the strength of which is meant for a full grown animal, but that you "believed might alleviate its suffering too," and you still kill the poor thing.

Matthew 25:

24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Face it, you continue to read your moral relativism in to these things that are, either black, or white, not some in between.

The grey (and it is meant to be only temporary) is allowed only in the middle between interpretations from within the camp, not without.

Again, if I did not get it across before, I appreciate your reading my comments closely and giving some well-thought criticism of them. I crave different ideas that pull the rug out from under me. I have found that I have reached a mature stage in my Christianity where this happens to me more frequently. And especially with Jesus.

I also want to add that there is no way that I can claim I am sure I am right about anything.
 

Poly

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I have to watch a midget grow every time I look in the mirror while I'm putting on my heels.

:noid:
 

Danoh

New member
Again, if I did not get it across before, I appreciate your reading my comments closely and giving some well-thought criticism of them. I crave different ideas that pull the rug out from under me. I have found that I have reached a mature stage in my Christianity where this happens to me more frequently. And especially with Jesus.

I also want to add that there is no way that I can claim I am sure I am right about anything.

The point of the parable was not what the talents were, and so on.

Nor is what scholars come up with through what is really nothing more than the same old Scholastic Mysticism they have been subscribing to, parroting and passing on for centuries.

Rather, what the point of that parable is what it then flowed into:

Matthew 25:

28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, if you want to insist that is some sort of a grey in between, well, have at it.

I shall have to differ with you on all the above.

You continue to show your intent is failed by your sources, and the same manner of reasoning about a thing you have obviously picked up from them.

By the way, do you practice Aikido?
 

aikido7

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The point of the parable was not what the talents were, and so on.

Nor is what scholars come up with through what is really nothing more than the same old Scholastic Mysticism they have been subscribing to, parroting and passing on for centuries.

Rather, what the point of that parable is what it then flowed into:

Matthew 25:

28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, if you want to insist that is some sort of a grey in between, well, have at it.

I shall have to differ with you on all the above.

You continue to show your intent is failed by your sources, and the same manner of reasoning about a thing you have obviously picked up from them.

By the way, do you practice Aikido?
We are both using our human ideas of faith and our own faith life as an excuse to feel superior to the other person. I guess that's the way I came across to you, otherwise you would not "push back" the same way you felt pushed.

I apologize. But bear in mind I can never be wholly convinced that I am right. Any truths I arrive at can only be provisional. I just enjoy sharing facts I have learned and then offering my Christian beliefs about them. I mean no offense and I apologize.

I have to admire you for trying to see things in black and white. Sounds like an easier life to have than most people do. But I think there is a danger here in seeing one's own modern categories as "the gospel" and trying to force those ideas back into the past----a past filled with people who were unable to conceptualize the "black/white" nature of reality we take for granted.

I can see how you may have managed to keep yourself separate from anything other than the horizons of your own finite self.

I just can't live that way. I think if I did I could no longer read the Bible or fellowship with others, simply because I am "right" and everyone else is "wrong."

By the way, I was not trying to confuse your or convince you by bringing out some historical data on what a "talent" actually meant. Jesus often made puzzling and bizarre exaggerations in his parables to make a point. A larger point.

--The Parable of the Leaven is not about baking tips
--The Parable of the Sower is not about gardening skills in first-century Galilee.
--The Prodigal Son is not about a specific family, but about all families.

When I accepted Jesus I began to study aikido. It is the only martial art that deals with one's opponent without harming them. And to my delight, there are ways of using psychological aikido in relationships with my family and others. Jesus did much the same thing at times. He changed the context of an event and demonstrated how to "go with the flow" to confront an opponent or an immoral situation.
 

exminister

Well-known member
Bob Dylan


Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their marks
Made everything from toy guns that sparks
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the President of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.
 

aikido7

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Seeing midgets grow is no different than seeing someone walking on water or walking around after being tortured and killed.

It is "an act of faith" to see these sorts of things.

My opinion, anyway.
 

aikido7

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Bob Dylan


Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their marks
Made everything from toy guns that sparks
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the President of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.
To those of us who were touched by the culture in the 1960s, we saw and listened to and heard an awful lot of pretty insightful prophecy--long before the rest of the country started to catch up.

The people who used to beat up and cut the hair of the "long-haired hippies" ended up having hair like the Rolling Stones 5 years later!
 

aikido7

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Banned
As usual, you walk right past the obvious. The issues "lost in translation" due to the filter that is "interpretation."

Not to mention, the driving motive behind the interpretation.

For even when the issue is a "good intention," the aphorism that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" still holds.

Give a puppy a pain killer the strength of which is meant for a full grown animal, but that you "believed might alleviate its suffering too," and you still kill the poor thing.

Matthew 25:

24. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Face it, you continue to read your moral relativism in to these things that are, either black, or white, not some in between.

The grey (and it is meant to be only temporary) is allowed only in the middle between interpretations from within the camp, not without.
I just see a meaning in the parable that goes way beyond the literal or allegorical black/white, either/or categories you find useful.

To me, the Parable of the Talents teaches that each Christian has been given gifts by God, in different areas and different amounts. The talents given to the slaves in the story still belong to the master all along, just like the gifts that God entrusts to us.

All will be called before the master to give an account for what he or she has done with the "talents" that God has bestowed. It is important that we think of the talents as all the gifts of God,
whether they be skills, money, influence, or whatever.
 

aikido7

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The point of the parable was not what the talents were, and so on.

Nor is what scholars come up with through what is really nothing more than the same old Scholastic Mysticism they have been subscribing to, parroting and passing on for centuries.

I don't claim to "know" what the parable is about. I can only offer what I have learned from history. And I apologize for muddying the waters with you when I commented about the "talent." I just thought you would like to learn about it.



Rather, what the point of that parable is what it then flowed into....
The difference between us that I see is that you claim "...the parable is about..." I can only honestly state that my remarks are what I think or believe what the parable is about. It is dishonest and arrogant for me to claim otherwise.

I try to be as accountable and honest as I can be. I never meant to confuse you or convince you of anything.
 
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