The Two Natures of the Christian
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Not sure that I agree with you. God sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ.
Before the foundation of the world God saw Jesus being slain (crucified) for the sins of the world, Revelation 13:8.
Isaiah prophesied about the Christ event long before it happened, Isaiah 53:1-12.
In God's mind the sins of the world had already been atoned for.
" fulfilled the law in our name and on our behalf."-you
Made up. No scripture assert that He fulfilled the law in our name and on our behalf. I had this discussion with Calvinist Naggy the barbiturate/downer. You talk like her-she talks like you.
To wit...
“Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect….The elect are predestined to share in the glory of Christ, because He deserves to receive all the divine promises of the Kingdom.Jesus Christ merited our part in His kingdom, by assuming flesh and coming into the world as our Mediator. He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf, and substitutionally suffered our deserved sentence of death in our stead. Even the elect were by nature, the same as the children of wrath, prior to being regenerated and gifted with grace to believe. Ephesians 2:3-10”-Nag
"He fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf"-Nag
This is perverting the gospel of Christ, as that is "vicarious lawkeeping," and no scripture says that.
The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.
"Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect."-Nag
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3:21 KJV
Repeating, as you learn, through repetition:
The members of the boc's righteousness starts with the death of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the risen, ascended, glorified, and seated Lord Jesus Christ is the individual member's righteousness, as we are "in Christ," united with Him, as He has become our righteousness(1 Cor. 1:30 KJV), not the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the law in our place, i.e., "vicarious law keeping." The member of the boc has NADA to with the law-there is no connection.
"ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;" Rom. 7:4 KJV
Romans 7:1-7 KJV....
"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? "
The law has power, jurisdiction, over a man/woman, only as long as they are alive.
Light bulb?
"For ye are dead,.." Col. 3:3 KJV
A dead man is not subject to any civil, local, or "religious"(used generically here) law. Thus, the member of the boc, who is reckoned dead, is not subject to the law, because he/she is considered dead, risen, seated with the Lord Jesus Christ. The law has lost its authority, to bring either condemnation, or righteousness,through the "vicarious obedience/law keeping" of the Lord Jesus Christ. And therefore, Paul asserts Romans 10:4 KJV.
Had the Lord Jesus Christ only kept the law, we would all be "Krispy Kritters." Anyone who kept the law, it would have been the righteousness of the law, not the righteousness of God(memorize that), which has NADA to do with obeying the law.
His Holy character was essential to His nature, as well as proving that He was qualified to become our "lamb ...without blemish"(Ex. 12:5 KJV), attested to by Peter(1 Peter 1:19 KJV). But for what purpose? For sacrifice. But His holiness was not vicarious, or "credited" to us in some way. The good news is not that He lived our obedience for us, but that "Christ...died for our sins...was buried...he rose again the third day...was raised again for our justification."(1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, Rom. 4:25 KJV).
"Anyone who believes and trusts in the righteous works of Jesus Christ, rather than in their own works to find forgiveness from God, is elect"-Nag
No, He is our righteousness.
1 Corinthians 1 KJV
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
“Jesus Christ revealed His sinlessness in an assumed body of flesh, under the Law.He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God. Only the Son of God, come as the Son of Man, could achieve such righteousness. He did for us, what we never could have done for ourselves.The Law is not bad. The Law is holy and righteous.The only thing bad about the Law, is we can't keep it. But Jesus Christ did and His faithfulness, including His suffering the wrath of God and dying our sentence of death in our stead, allowed His righteousness to be imputed to us. His resurrection is our guarantee of everlasting life, for now we live in Him, and are no longer under obligation to the Law for self-righteousness.You really would benefit from some study of Christ's Office of Mediator.”-Nag
"He accomplished legal righteousness for us, "-Naggie
Yes, righteousness is imputed to us, but no on ....
"He accomplished legal righteousness for us, because no sinner can keep the holy laws of God.."-Nag
...as it has NADA to do with the Saviour keeping the holy laws of God on our behalf. That is "vicarious lawkeeping," and perverts the gospel of Christ. Him keeping the holy law of God qualified Him to be the "lamb without blemish," to be the propitiation(satisfactory sacrifice).
I appreciate what you are saying, but not sure that I agree with you.
I will post a new article tomorrow, "The Life of Christ for the Believer".
We can discuss it further then.
See my article tomorrow, "The Life of Christ for the Believer".
Ben Masada
New member
Any one can see how different is the gospel of Paul from the gospel of Jesus. Only according to the gospel of Paul the believer is considered dead to the Law. With Jesus the believer rather confirms the validation of the Law forever. (Mat. 5:17-19) Hence, Jesus' words that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law in order
to achieve salvation. (Luke 16:29-31)
musterion
Well-known member
Okay, Robert, I'll wait. But, even though we both reject all overt lawkeeping for righteousness, this still comes down to a simple choice: either God counts the believer as having kept the Law by virtue of Christ's having kept the Law (what Darby called "positive [legal] righteousness") OR God doesn't even consider the Law as a factor in the righteousness of those in Christ who have died to Law, because they died to it. I see no room for middle ground here; it's one or the other.
Ben Masada
New member
I'll go for the other. Jesus did not die for our sins. The Prophets of the Most High would not make such a mistake to say that no one is allowed to die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) No one can say he or she died to the Law and live with it. This is a Pauline dangerous doctrine.
Rejected. Write an article, entitled, "How I Obtained An Unteacheable Sprit," by Robert Pate. I dig true articles.
WeberHome
New member
Your way of looking at those passages is one way, but it's not the only way.
It appears to me that Yhvh is saying that blame isn't transferrable to one's kin.
For example: my dad cheated on my half brother's mom; viz: my dad was an adulterer; but his behavior didn't make my half brother an adulterer; nor me either.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Last edited:
WeberHome
New member
Though modern Jews typically abhor human sacrifice, not all Jews have always abhorred it. For example; Abraham and Isaac are believed by some Jews to have started a tradition called mitatan shel tsaddiqim mekapperet (the death of the righteous atones).
Some of the ancient Jews considered Abraham's obedience as a righteous deed and even though God stopped Abraham at the last second, the ancient Jews did in fact credit the father, Abraham, for following through and they also credited the son, Isaac, for not only willingly offering his body, which was reckoned turned to ashes, but also for offering ¼ of his blood too. (Midrash HaGadol on Genesis 22:19), (Sifra, 102c; b. Ta'anit 16a) and also (Mekhilta d'Rashbi, p.4; Tanh. Vayerra, sec.23)
For what, or for whom, did Isaac willingly offer his body and blood? Was it for himself? Was it for his father Abraham? No; neither. According to the Targums, it was for his future posterity, the people of Israel.
T. And Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of the Lord, and said, Thou art the Lord who seest, and art not seen. I pray for mercy before Thee, O Lord. It is wholly manifest and known before Thee that in my heart there was no dividing, in the time that Thou didst command me to offer Izhak my son, and to make him dust and ashes before Thee; but that forthwith I arose in the morning and performed Thy word with joy, and I have fulfilled Thy word.
. . . And now I pray for mercies before Thee, O Lord God, that when the children of Izhak offer in the hour of need, the binding of Izhak their father Thou mayest remember on their behalf, and remit and forgive their sins, and deliver them out of all need. That the generations who are to arise after him may say, In the mountain of the house of the sanctuary of the Lord did Abraham offer Izhak his son, and in this mountain of the house of the sanctuary was revealed unto him the glory of the Shekinah of the Lord. (Jerusalem Targum)
and in another Targum:
T. Now I pray for mercy before You, O Lord God, that when the children of Isaac come to a time of distress You may remember on their behalf the Binding Of Isaac their father, and loose and forgive them their sins and deliver them from all distress. (Fragmentary Targum)
"mitatan shel tsaddiqim mekapperet" (the death of the righteous atones) --is deeply imbedded in ancient Jewish tradition and has been extremely helpful in lending a degree of sanity to horrors like the Holocaust. The six million Jews who died under the heels of Fascist oppression are reckoned by many pious Jews as effecting the salvation of the whole world. In point of fact;: the words "My righteous servant" found in Isa 53:11 are believed by more than a few Jews to refer to their people.
In a well known Talmudic discussion (b. Mo'ed Qatan 28a) the question is asked why the book of Numbers records the death of Miriam immediately after the section on the Red Heifer (Num 19:1-20:1). The answer is, that just as the Red Heifer atones, so also the death of the righteous atones. (see also Rashi on Numbers 20:1) And why, the Talmud asks, is the death of Aaron recorded in conjunction with the Torah's reference to the priestly garments? (Num 20:25-28) The answer is, that just as the garments of the high priest atone (Ex 28 especially verse 38) so also the death of the righteous atones.
This principle is fairly common in rabbinical literature. At Leviticus Rabbah 20:12, repeated elsewhere verbatim ( y. Yoma 2:1, Pesika deRav Kahana 26:16) Rabbi Hiyya Bar Abba said: The sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, died the first day of Nisan. Why then does the Torah mention their death in conjunction with the Day Of Atonement? (which occurred on the tenth of Tishrei; Lev 16:1) It is to teach that just as the Day Of Atonement atones, so also the death of the righteous atones.
It's stated in Midrash Assereth Memrot: The Messiah, in order to atone for them both, [for Adam and David] will make his soul a trespass offering, as it is written next to this, in the Parash [scriptural passage] Behold My servant 'shm ('shm = guilt offering)
The "servant" the midrash refers to is the servant of Isaiah 52:13-53:12; whom the midrash taught was none other than Messiah and whom the midrash also taught was to be a human offering for both guilt and trespasses.
Rabbinical scholar Solomon Schechter summarizes the Talmudic teaching that human suffering and death atone for sin thus:
"The atonement of suffering and death is not limited to the suffering person. The atoning effect extends to all the generation. This is especially the case with such sufferers as cannot either by reason of their righteous life or by their youth possibly have merited the afflictions which have come upon them. The death of the righteous atones just as well as certain sacrifices [with reference to b. Mo'ed Qatan 28a] They are caught (suffer) for the sins of the generation. If there are no righteous, the children of the schools (that is, the innocent young school children) are caught for the sins of the generation. [b. Shabbat 32b]"
"Applied to Moses [personally] are Scriptural words-- And he bore the sins of many (Isa 53:12)-- because of his offering himself as an atonement for Israel's sin with the golden calf, being ready to sacrifice his very soul for Israel when he said: And if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book (that is, from the Book Of The Living) which thou has written. (Ex 32:32, b.Sotah 14a; b. Berakhoth 32a)"
"This readiness to sacrifice oneself for Israel is characteristic of all the great men of Israel, the patriarchs, and the Prophets acting in the same way, whilst also some Rabbis would, on certain occasions, exclaim; Behold, I am the atonement of Israel. [Mekhilta 2a; m. Negaim 2:1]"
That same thought is also carried over in a prayer, still included in the additional service for the Jewish new year, Rosh Hashanah, which culminates with these words: "Remember today the Binding Of Isaac with mercy to his descendants."
The rabbis taught that the final resurrection of the dead would take place "through the merits of Isaac, who offered himself upon the altar." (Pesikta deRav Kahana, 32)
Rabbi Shem Klingberg, known among his followers as the Zaloshitzer Rebbe, when led out to be slaughtered by the Nazis, an instant before his death lifted up his eyes to heaven and cried out in a piercing voice: "Let me be an atonement for Israel!"
To this very day, when a leading rabbi dies, it is quite common for his mourners to say: May his death serve as an atonement for us.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=