The Trinity

The Trinity


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Right Divider

Body part
Please allow me to explain Sir Divider. On one side we have someone that says that they believe the Bible, that they love their God and the Lord Jesus Christ. He affirms the scripture, even 1 John 5:7 "These three are one". On the other side the response is to brand him a heretic. How is such an accusation or division helpful to the gospel or the body of Christ?

On the other hand, perhaps identifying actions like this for examination might help us to bind together, and where sharing or instruction is needed, to be able to do so properly as the Spirit would guide in love, long suffering, peace, joy. That is how I am trying to help.

It may be that there is a certain understanding already and such comments are made in just, but given some of the tenor of comments on threads like this that is not usually a safe assumption.
Perhaps it's because you are knew here that you do not know that GT is a poser of grand proportions.

Neither Jesus, not Paul was a coddler of such people. We are to MARK such people and avoid them (Rom 16:17); and also mark those that support sound doctrine and use them as an example (Phil 3:17).

GT's "version" of the "three in one" doctrine is actually the "one in one". She believes that Jesus was "the Father with a body", which thereby exposes her error and UNsound, false doctrine.

She is here to pervert the Word of God and does so at every opportunity, especially when she finds someone that is not well grounded in the Word.

She also believes that Jesus will judge her faithful because she is SO obedient. She does NOT have a clue regarding the gospel of the grace of God which is how anyone gets saved TODAY.
 

God's Truth

New member
Please allow me to explain Sir Divider. On one side we have someone that says that they believe the Bible, that they love their God and the Lord Jesus Christ. He affirms the scripture, even 1 John 5:7 "These three are one". On the other side the response is to brand him a heretic. How is such an accusation or division helpful to the gospel or the body of Christ?

On the other hand, perhaps identifying actions like this for examination might help us to bind together, and where sharing or instruction is needed, to be able to do so properly as the Spirit would guide in love, long suffering, peace, joy. That is how I am trying to help.

It may be that there is a certain understanding already and such comments are made in just, but given some of the tenor of comments on threads like this that is not usually a safe assumption.

You come off as a peace maker. If that is so, then that is good.
 

God's Truth

New member
Please allow me to explain Sir Divider. On one side we have someone that says that they believe the Bible, that they love their God and the Lord Jesus Christ. He affirms the scripture, even 1 John 5:7 "These three are one". On the other side the response is to brand him a heretic. How is such an accusation or division helpful to the gospel or the body of Christ?

On the other hand, perhaps identifying actions like this for examination might help us to bind together, and where sharing or instruction is needed, to be able to do so properly as the Spirit would guide in love, long suffering, peace, joy. That is how I am trying to help.

It may be that there is a certain understanding already and such comments are made in just, but given some of the tenor of comments on threads like this that is not usually a safe assumption.

You sound as one capable of righteous judgments. However, I have been let down before. I cannot tell you how much I long to talk with someone who is reasonable.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Perhaps it's because you are knew here that you do not know that GT is a poser of grand proportions.

Neither Jesus, not Paul was a coddler of such people. We are to MARK such people and avoid them (Rom 16:17); and also mark those that support sound doctrine and use them as an example (Phil 3:17).

GT's "version" of the "three in one" doctrine is actually the "one in one". She believes that Jesus was "the Father with a body", which thereby exposes her error and UNsound, false doctrine.

She is here to pervert the Word of God and does so at every opportunity, especially when she finds someone that is not well grounded in the Word.

She also believes that Jesus will judge her faithful because she is SO obedient. She does NOT have a clue regarding the gospel of the grace of God which is how anyone gets saved TODAY.

Before you continue your attempt to remove the speck from her eye, can you show me where our bible states that God is "three in one?" I think those might be the words from a creed, rather than scripture. I was pretty sure the actual words were "three are one."

1 John 5:7 KJV
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

After that, can you show me where Paul says to mark people for separation who believe that God is One? Jesus did say something along those lines, and as such can she be faulted for believing those words?

Mark 12:29 KJV
(29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

John 10:30 KJV
(30) I and my Father are one.


Are you able to explain to me how her faith that "God is One" constitutes false doctrine, thus a danger to us all? I do not understand why she should be viewed as a threat.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Who is James White?

I earlier addressed the opening question of "Is the Trinity biblical' by looking for a definition of "Trinity." To that end I availed myself of an online quiz that had been previously posted on a different thread that would grade you on how well you understood the doctrine. You can take the test yourself here: http://www.challies.com/resources/take-a-test-on-the-trinity

I took the quiz and looked at the answers and rationale given for each point. What I noticed was that the appeal to authority was always given to a non-biblical source. Three common sources were used, including the Athanasian creed, James White, and John Frame. As for who is James White, in one sense he is just another man (person) like you or me.

James Robert White (born December 17, 1962) is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, an evangelical Reformed Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. He is the author of more than 20 books and has engaged in numerous moderated debates.

James White (theologian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_White_(theologian)

In the quiz James White is cited as authority for determining whether your answer is true or false. For example "False. See James White's definition of the Trinity..." is given as the answer. If i were making such a quiz, I think that I would rather cite Moses, or Jesus, or Paul to support my answers, but this quiz used James White.
 

marhig

Well-known member
Why do you think Jesus came into this vile world? Just because?
Why do you think Jesus willingly gave His life as a ransom for many? Just because?

If you do not believe that Jesus paid your debt that you owe God and CANNOT pay then you have no Savior.
Where do you think Jesus paid the debt YOU owe God?

If your faith is not in Him and His completed mission your faith is in the wrong object.



Not talking to you now.



One verse is NOT enough. That is making a pretext taking the single verse out of its perfect context.

He came to give His life as a ransom.
“Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).

He came to do the will of God.
“Then He added, ‘Look, I have come to do Your will’” (Hebrews 10:9).

He came to save sinners.
“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (I Timothy 1:15).

He came to put away sin.
“Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (Hebrews 9:26).
“You know that He appeared in order to take away sins” (I John 3:5).
“Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).
Compare John 1:35, Leviticus 16:20-22, Isaiah 53:6, II Corinthians 5:21.

He came to destroy the works of the devil.
“The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil” (I John 3:8).
“Only as a human being could He die, and only by dying could He break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death” (Hebrews 2:14).
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” (John 12:31).
“For the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me” (John 14:30).

He came to bear our sins.
“He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross” (I Peter 2:24).
“Christ . . . having been offered once to bear the sins of many” (Hebrews 9:28).

How does, marhig, believe He did that? I’ll tell you how, He gave His life willingly to die on the Cross of Calvary to pay the debt we owe God and cannot pay.

The Cross of Calvary brought about the renting of the veil in the Temple, not His life, not His many miracles, not His sermons, not His teachings, not His incarnation, not his Resurrection, but HIS DEATH rent the veil in the Temple.

"The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again. No person takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life. And I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me." — John 10:17-18

Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins and through HIS DEATH the penalty was paid and now WHOSOEVER believe in Jesus the Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary can have what that DEATH purchased. However, the person can only have what He purchased on the Cross of Calvary by believing Him AND His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

He absorbed the wrath of God while on the Cross of Calvary. God publicly endorsed Christ’s accomplishment by raising him from the dead.

Because of Him and His finished mission those who believe in Him and His finished mission can escape the curse of the law.

Because of Him and His finished mission those who believe in Him and His finished mission are reconciled to God.

Because of Him and His finished mission those who believe in Him and His finished mission are freed from our condemnation.

Him and His finished mission bring those who believe Him and His finished mission to God.

Him and His finished mission give eternal life to all who believe on Him and what He did on the Cross of Calvary — paid our debt we owed God and cannot pay.

Now, you, marhig, can accept Him and what He did on the Cross of Calvary as the ONLY way for you to be found 'in Him' and be found saved or you can continue to present the work of your hands which have already been rejected.

One's eternal destination is at stake here. You get Jesus the Christ and His mission wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You, marhig, got Jesus wrong and His mission wrong.

Jesus came here to save us, but death doesn't save, life does. The only death that God wants, is the death of sin in us, though shalt not kill, means just that.

Jesus came to bare witness to the truth and to preach the gospel and establish his church on earth. God knew beforehand what Satan would do to him, and he prophesised it in the old testament. He told of the suffering that Jesus would endure through the prophets.

Yet Jesus came knowing this and he knew his cross that he had to bear was hard, and he became sin for us, he who knew no sin. He came into this sinful flesh to reconcile us back to God by not living by the flesh but under obedience to God bringing us the ministry of reconciliation

2 Corinthians 5

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation....


And he came to show us the way. And his way is the only way, he refused to obey his will and he denied Satan, and instead he lived by the will of God. By his death we are reconciled, and that death is him not living to please his flesh so that he was dead to it. And we are saved by his life. Which is following him in our life and walking the walk, being doers of the word and not hearers only, and by his resurrected life within us by the spirit, giving us the strength to overcome, if we keep our faith, and obey God.

Jesus came not only by water, but by water and by blood. He came not only by the word, but he also lived it out in his flesh, becoming the perfect example for us to follow. The blood is his life, and being covered by his blood is his life within us. And if his life is in our hearts, then we should be living it out, partaking in the sufferings of Christ and denying ourselves taking up our cross and following him. If we're not baring our cross, then were not worthy of him.

When Paul preached Christ crucified, he preached of the sufferings that Jesus bore to bring us the truth, he even said that those who belong to Christ have crucified the lusts and affections of the flesh, in other words our lusts of flesh are being put to death by the indwelling spirit and that we are crucified with Christ, we should be dying daily to our lusts and this world. If we were saved by the natural cross, then Paul would have had no need to die daily, because Jesus would have done it all for him. But he knew that he had to obey God. And partake in the sufferings of Christ, deny his flesh, walk the walk and obey the the living God, who was in Christ Jesus. As we who follow him should be doing too

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we are saved by Christ's finished work on calvary's cross. And Jesus told the pharasees that it was wrong to kill him, here's a few different verses from John 7 and 8

John 7

Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 8

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech?even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them.not, because ye are not of God.

Just look at the parable of the wicked vineyard servants, Jesus is saying here what wanted God his people to do, GOD WANTED HIS PEOPLE TO REVERENCE HIS SON NOT MURDER HIM!

Luke 20

Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid....

But their hearts were full of cruelty, envy and murder. And they crucified the prince of life, the holy son of the living God, Christ Jesus. And it was a sin, it wasn't glorious in any way at all! And God put them away from him. And the only way back is to believe in Jesus, whom God sent and repent and have faith in the living God and obey him.

Listen to what Peter said, Acts 3

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life

And here's Paul, 1 Corinthians2

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,.even.the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY!

Paul is saying that it was wrong to crucify Jesus!

And Stephen, Acts 7

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:.Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. (Ref: what Stephen says here, coincides with the parable of the wicked vinyard servants)

And that law (as spoken of by Stephen) was THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

Peter and others, Acts 5

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

That doesn't sound like Peter (or any of the rest) are glorifying the crucifixion of Jesus, it was a sin before God to kill him!

The cross that Jesus bore is the cross that he tells us that we must bare when we follow him. He was murdered on the wooden cross. And we don't have to be crucified on a wooden cross when we have to bare ours!

Jesus came into this flesh and bore his cross to bring bare witness to the truth, and through his life we are saved. God a God of life, and the only death he wants is the death of our sinful flesh, Jesus said that the work that God has given him to do was finished, before he went on the cross.

Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We are converted once we are walking in the spirit, born anew, and obeying God. Denying our flesh, baring our cross and truly following Jesus. If we do this, then our flesh should be dying, and our sins going, and we should be producing the fruits of the spirit and becoming more innocent like little children, having pure clean hearts, and wanting to be close to our father heaven.

To say that were saved even if we continue wilfully sinning isn't of God. OSAS gives a false assurance and we are to stop wilfully sinning and obey God. To sin, when we know it's wrong before God, is to turn from him and deny him and to crucify the lord afresh, and put him to an open shame.

By the grace of God we are saved through faith. Faith in God, and faith in his holy son. And his sheep hear his voice and follow him. He's the door, the way of life is a narrow way. It's not just hearing the word, but doing the word and living out the life, and Jesus came and showed how to live it, he came as a perfect example. The more that we are willing to let go of our flesh and this world, then the stronger we will become in spirit. And God blesses us with treasures that this world doesn't have.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
Before you continue your attempt to remove the speck from her eye,...
So now you're trying to remove the log in mine?

can you show me where our bible states that God is "three in one?" I think those might be the words from a creed, rather than scripture. I was pretty sure the actual words were "three are one."
Yes, oh nit-picky one. That's what I meant. The entire Bible describes God as a plurality in a singularity.

1 John 5:7 KJV
(7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

After that, can you show me where Paul says to mark people for separation who believe that God is One?
I never said that. Are you just another that likes to TRY to put words in other peoples mouths?

It's mark them which cause division due to contrary doctrine. GT does NOT believe that the three are one (even thought at times she says that she does). She claims that Jesus is "the Father with a body". If you also believe that, then you two can fall together.

Jesus did say something along those lines, and as such can she be faulted for believing those words?

Mark 12:29 KJV
(29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

John 10:30 KJV
(30) I and my Father are one.

Are you able to explain to me how her faith that "God is One" constitutes false doctrine, thus a danger to us all? I do not understand why she should be viewed as a threat.
Like I keep telling you, she believes that "the Son is the Father with a body". That is false.

Was Jesus talking to Himself when He spoke to His Father? When the Father spoke to Jesus was He speaking to Himself?

Her vain philosophy makes a mockery of the Word of God.
 

lifeisgood

New member
By the grace of God we are saved through faith. Faith in God, and faith in his holy son. And his sheep hear his voice and follow him. He's the door, the way of life is a narrow way. It's not just hearing the word, but doing the word and living out the life, and Jesus came and showed how to live it, he came as a perfect example. The more that we are willing to let go of our flesh and this world, then the stronger we will become in spirit. And God blesses us with treasures that this world doesn't have.

Your faith has to be in the CORRECT object though — Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

Paul suffered untold hardships after he received the risen Lord’s marching orders of what the Gospel was. What was to be preached?

“For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him Crucified (1 Cor 2:2).

This and this ALONE is the Gospel which will save the sinner, set the captive free, and give the Believer perpetual victory.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are saved by Jesus’ resurrection, Jesus’ incarnation, Jesus’ many incredible miracles, Jesus’ many healings, etc.

We are saved alone and exclusively by what Christ Jesus did at the Cross of Calvary.

Now, you can accept Him and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary or you can reject Him and His finished work and present the works of your own hands which have already been rejected.

One's eternal destination is at stake here. You get Jesus the Christ and His mission wrong, it matters not what else you get right. You, marhig, got Jesus wrong and His mission wrong.

The decision God has left it up to you.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Why do you say that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God? I mean, regardless of how many times one may have heard people repeat that phrase, where is that written? Are you sure it says that?

Are you one of those who also reject the finished work on the Cross of Calvary and are presenting the work of your own hands which have already been rejected?

God is ONLY pleased with His Son and what His Son did.
 

lifeisgood

New member
Jesus came here to save us, but death doesn't save, life does. The only death that God wants, is the death of sin in us, though shalt not kill, means just that.

The ONLY thing that saves is faith in Jesus the Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary. You can accept or reject that though and keep on presenting the work of your own hands which have already been rejected.
 

Rosenritter

New member
So now you're trying to remove the log in mine?


Yes, oh nit-picky one. That's what I meant. The entire Bible describes God as a plurality in a singularity.


I never said that. Are you just another that likes to TRY to put words in other peoples mouths?

It's mark them which cause division due to contrary doctrine. GT does NOT believe that the three are one (even thought at times she says that she does). She claims that Jesus is "the Father with a body". If you also believe that, then you two can fall together.


Like I keep telling you, she believes that "the Son is the Father with a body". That is false.

Was Jesus talking to Himself when He spoke to His Father? When the Father spoke to Jesus was He speaking to Himself?

Her vain philosophy makes a mockery of the Word of God.

If you mean "these three are one" then you have no disagreement with her. But Trinity proponents almost always say "three in one" in speech and writing. There is a difference.

Three in one is plurality.
Three are one is singularity.

That is why she uses one phrase and you use the other, and that seems to be the source of your disagreement.

Did not Jesus say that one cannot do good works in his name and speak evil of him, forbid them not? Do you really want to insist on sowing discord among brethren that acknowledge Jesus as LORD and God?

If I were to look at this conversation objectively I would say that the Trinity doctrine itself is the doctrine causing discord. It is being held as more holy than what it supposedly was supposed to protect.

And if that statement makes you even more angry I think my point is proved. The man made doctrine has assumed a higher status than scripture. Shall I rest my case?
 

lifeisgood

New member
Jesus came to bare witness to the truth and to preach the gospel and establish his church on earth. God knew beforehand what Satan would do to him, and he prophesised it in the old testament. He told of the suffering that Jesus would endure through the prophets.

And how did he fulfilled that, marhig?

By being obedient to the mission entrusted to Him. What was that mission? To die on the Cross of Calvary so that through His Death on the Cross of Calvary the veil of separation between God and man could be ripped.

Ever noticed that it was when HE DIED that the veil in the Temple was rent?
 

lifeisgood

New member
Yet Jesus came knowing this and he knew his cross that he had to bear was hard, and he became sin for us, he who knew no sin. He came into this sinful flesh to reconcile us back to God by not living by the flesh but under obedience to God bringing us the ministry of reconciliation

2 Corinthians 5

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation....

Awesome scriptures.

How? Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

Ever noticed that it was when HE DIED that the veil in the Temple was rent and NOT anything else?
 

lifeisgood

New member
Which is following him in our life and walking the walk, being doers of the word and not hearers only, and by his resurrected life within us by the spirit, giving us the strength to overcome, if we keep our faith, and obey God.

We can only follow Him AFTER we have come through the Cross of Calvary. That being rejected we are following “another Jesus” and “another gospel” inspired by “another spirit”.

The only door to Salvation is Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary or there is no other door for Salvation.

Ever noticed that it was when HE DIED that the veil in the Temple was rent and NOT anything else?
 

lifeisgood

New member
Just look at the parable of the wicked vineyard servants, Jesus is saying here what wanted God his people to do, GOD WANTED HIS PEOPLE TO REVERENCE HIS SON NOT MURDER HIM!

God did not want the Jews to murder His Son.

God wanted His Son to be accepted as their Savior.

But that Jesus was to die, there is no doubt about it. The altar and the sacrifice in the Temple portrayed it.
 
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