The time has come...

[Clete]

You told me that our 4 science officers are lying, ignorant or out of touch. You wrote that.
Yet when asked you could offer no qualifications of your own and seemed as if to pretend that your science officers are saying that about ours.
I don't expect for one second that any of our chief medical, chief science or National Health officers will be paying any attention to ideas or insults like yours. We will follow our own research and their guidance about masks, social distancing, hand cleansing , vaccinations and lockdowns.
That's all of it.... You can pick out the parts that interest you.

The point here is that no one is following any research about masks or lock downs!

If they were, regardless of which country they happen to live in or work for, there would be no mask mandates or lock downs, either one! They DO NOT work! There is literally now a whole years worth of worldwide data that proves that lock downs are a medically useless waste of time! When this whole thing started, one could be excused for believing that locking things down would be a good idea but know there is no rational disputing the facts that are all as obvious as can be and which are available to anyone who wants to spend the ten seconds it takes to pull up the data.
The same goes for wearing masks except that there had already been several studies done in several countries around the world over decades of time that showed definitively that wearing surgical masks, never mind the cloth facial coverings that most people are actually wearing, has no effect of the spread of infectious respiratory diseases. There was enough science on that topic that they not only know that they don't help but they have a pretty good idea why they don't help which is why EVERYONE in any position of authority concerning disease control was telling people not to bother wearing a mask when the idea first came up back in February / March of last year.

“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.” - Dr. Anthony Fauci - March 8th, 2020​

And that's just about the last thing Dr. Fauci has said publicly concerning masks that has any basis in actual scientific data!

So, no you are not and you will not be following any research concerning masks and lock downs. You will simply be following their "guidance" like the lost puppy of a human being your government wants you to be, which is what mask wearing and lock downs are really all about anyway.

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

And they say that the violent overthrow of the United States Government which happened on Jan. 6, 2021 wasn't preplanned.

I don't remember the government being overthrown on that date. To the best of my knowledge, the government, other than changing hands, is still the same government...

I would love to debate you by bringing up the major differences between your Trump

I'm not a Trump supporter.

I'm not part of nor is the Trump movement "my movement."

movement and the Founding Fathers.

The Founding Fathers definitely never imagined something like this would have ever happened, but that doesn't mean that I would approve of what they eventually came up with either.

Are you up for it?

You're asking me if, when presented options A or B, to defend A, when I prefer option C.

If you can understand that, then I'm game.

 

[eider]

...............................You will simply be following their "guidance" like the lost puppy of a human being your government wants you to be, which is what mask wearing and lock downs are really all about anyway.

Clete

That's how you see it, Clete.
But the vast majority of 65 million English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish citizens see it differently to you.

We follow the guidance of the four medical officers, four science officers and our joint UK Health Secretary, all described by the lay-member that I replied to as lying and ignorant people. Amazing!

I for one know that wearing a face mask (and specs) does protect me from those occasions when I might involuntarily touch my face. And together with hand-cleansing, space distancing, lockdown rules and our vaccination program we look forward to see things progress in mid March.

You do it your way, we'll do it ours.....

 

[aCultureWarrior]

I don't remember the government being overthrown on that date. To the best of my knowledge, the government, other than changing hands, is still the same government...

I left out the word "attempt". You do recognize that an attempt to violently overthrow the US Government was done on Jan 6, 2021 and the President of the United States at the time (Donald Trump) waited two hours to address the insurrection?

I'm not a Trump supporter.

I'm not part of nor is the Trump movement "my movement."

You sure do give a lot of upvotes to Trump supporters. Did you know that many of them are libertarian?

The Founding Fathers definitely never imagined something like this would have ever happened, but that doesn't mean that I would approve of what they eventually came up with either.

Which is it, did they "never imagine" or might they have "eventually came up with" what are seen as drastic measures to prevent the spread of a deadly pandemic?
In any event, there were several pandemics during the colonial days and measures, which anti vaxxing libertarians say are a violation of peoples civil rights, were taken to prevent the further spread of the diseases and hence mass death amongst the populace.
Would you like me to link some examples?

BTW, your "I will disobey" quote, which you used in your OP and in several posts afterwards, wasn't something that Paul Revere said. Was your purpose in quoting it supposed to give people the impression that Paul Revere said those things?

You're asking me if, when presented options A or B, to defend A, when I prefer option C.

If you can understand that, then I'm game.

So you'll be representing the libertarian anti vaxx Trump movement, which you of course aren't a part of, and I'll present evidence to show that the Founding Fathers did take measures to prevent the spread of deadly diseases during the pandemics that they experience?

Wait, you do recognize COVID19 as a deadly disease don't you or are you a COVID19 denier?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I left out the word "attempt". You do recognize that an attempt to violently overthrow the US Government was done on Jan 6, 2021 and the President of the United States at the time (Donald Trump) waited two hours to address the insurrection?

I recognize that many people swarmed Capitol Hill, and that some people broke into the Capitol Building.

I don't recognize the government as being overthrown.

I recognize that most of the people who were at Capitol Hill that day were peaceful, and that the few who broke into the building were, by definition, violent.

You sure do give a lot of upvotes to Trump supporters.

Upvotes? This isn't Reddit.

I "like" posts by people that accurately reflect reality.

Did you know that many of them are libertarian?

I don't consider a person's political stance when I "like" a post by them.

It just so happens that most (not all, as there are a few posts by people I don't normally agree with which I've "liked" in the past) of those posts are written by people who are on the right.

Which is it, did they "never imagine" or might they have "eventually came up with" what are seen as drastic measures to prevent the spread of a deadly pandemic?

Don't lose focus here, or at least clarify for me:

We were talking about the Founding Fathers and the form of government they put forth, yes?

So why are you now talking about diseases?

In any event, there were several pandemics during the colonial days and measures, which anti vaxxing libertarians say are a violation of peoples civil rights, were taken to prevent the further spread of the diseases and hence mass death amongst the populace.
Would you like me to link some examples?

BTW, your "I will disobey" quote, which you used in your OP and in several posts afterwards, wasn't something that Paul Revere said.

Maybe you should go to the site I linked to in the OP.

No one has claimed that Paul Revere said those words.

Was your purpose in quoting it supposed to give people the impression that Paul Revere said those things?

How about you read the site I quoted from. It will give you the proper context.

So you'll be representing the libertarian

Define "libertarian," please.

anti vaxx

Considering I'm not an "anti-vaxxer," except in that I am only against certain vaccines for various reasons, why would I defend such?

Trump movement,

I don't support the "Trump movement," (as you rightly acknowledge below) so why would I represent it?

which you of course aren't a part of, and I'll present evidence to show that the Founding Fathers did take measures to prevent the spread of deadly diseases during the pandemics that they experience?

Again, I thought we were talking about the form of government that the Founding Fathers put forth, as you initially made no reference to Covid-19 whatsoever in post #200.

So please clarify which you would like to discuss.

Wait, you do recognize COVID19 as a deadly disease don't you or are you a COVID19 denier?

I recognize that Covid-19 has killed people, which by definition makes it "deadly," but I do not recognize that it is portrayed accurately by most of the political and scientific community today and for the past year, it having been far overblown by politicians seeking power, and scientists looking for money.

I deny that Covid-19 is more dangerous than the above communities have made it out to be.

I do not deny that the virus, Sars-CoV-2, exists.

 

[Clete]

That's how you see it, Clete.
But the vast majority of 65 million English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish citizens see it differently to you.

That is not relevant.

Do you know what an "appeal to popularity" fallacy is? It means that millions and millions of people can be wrong - and often are.

The science supports me and is not a matter of popular (or personal) opinion.

We follow the guidance of the four medical officers, four science officers and our joint UK Health Secretary, all described by the lay-member that I replied to as lying and ignorant people. Amazing!

Just as I said, following government guidance like the lost puppy of a human being that your government depends on you to be for it's continued existence.

I for one know that wearing a face mask (and specs) does protect me from those occasions when I might involuntarily touch my face. And together with hand-cleansing, space distancing, lockdown rules and our vaccination program we look forward to see things progress in mid March.

The science tells us clearly that face masks have nothing to do with any such progress.

You do it your way, we'll do it ours.....

Then don't pretend to be following science! Stop even making the claim! If you want to wear a mask, have at it. It's a perfectly total waste of time but it's your time and its your face and so cover it up all you want, just don't tell me that you're the one following anything that resembles science because I know better and so does everyone else that have any knowledge at all about the actual science. If you want to be an obedient subject of a government that is flat out lying to your face about covering your face then that's a problem I can do nothing to fix except to tell you the truth about the real scientific studies that have been done over the decades. You are now the proverbial horse that has been led to water. Drink or don't but don't pretend you're in a desert.

Clete

 

[ok doser]

That is not relevant.

Do you know what an "appeal to popularity" fallacy is? It means that millions and millions of people can be wrong - and often are.

The science supports me and is not a matter of popular (or personal) opinion.

Just as I said, following government guidance that the lost puppy of a human being that your government depends on you to be for it's continued existence.


The science tells us clearly that face masks have nothing to do with any such progress.


Then don't pretend to be following science! Stop even making the claim! If you want to wear a mask, have at it. It's a perfectly total waste of time but it's your time and its your face and so cover it up all you want, just don't tell me that you're the one following anything that resembles science because I know better and so does everyone else that have any knowledge at all about the actual science. If you want to be an obedient subject of a government that is flat out lying to your face about covering your face then that's a problem I can do nothing to fix except to tell you the truth about the real scientific studies that have been done over the decade. You are now the proverbial horse that has been led to water. Drink or don't but don't pretend you're in a desert.

Clete

He's "following the science" because the television tells him that performing these useless actions is "following the science".


Why is this sufficient for him?


Because like other leftists here he doesn't understand science. He trusts others to understand science for him. You could show him explicitly that 1 + 1 = 2, but if it doesn't come from the governmental mouthpieces that he trusts he won't accept it.

 

[eider]

That is not relevant.

Do you know what an "appeal to popularity" fallacy is? It means that millions and millions of people can be wrong - and often are.

The science supports me and is not a matter of popular (or personal) opinion.

Just as I said, following government guidance that the lost puppy of a human being that your government depends on you to be for it's continued existence.


The science tells us clearly that face masks have nothing to do with any such progress.


Then don't pretend to be following science! Stop even making the claim! If you want to wear a mask, have at it. It's a perfectly total waste of time but it's your time and its your face and so cover it up all you want, just don't tell me that you're the one following anything that resembles science because I know better and so does everyone else that have any knowledge at all about the actual science. If you want to be an obedient subject of a government that is flat out lying to your face about covering your face then that's a problem I can do nothing to fix except to tell you the truth about the real scientific studies that have been done over the decade. You are now the proverbial horse that has been led to water. Drink or don't but don't pretend you're in a desert.

Clete

The countries here have made decisions about what we need to do. They then gave directions.
We will follow the directions.

You can call that what you like, we would call it being together.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The countries here have made decisions about what we need to do. They then gave directions.
We will follow the directions.

Just like the good little tin-foil hat wearing sheep you are.

 

[ok doser]

The countries here have made decisions about what we need to do. They then gave directions.

Which have resulted in your silly little country being 6th in the world in death rate. SECOND, if you ignore the four countries ahead of you that aren't really countries.

You can call that what you like

I call it retarded

we would call it being together.

Except for the staggering high number of dead people, right?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

• #205

aCultureWarrior said:
I left out the word "attempt". You do recognize that an attempt to violently overthrow the US Government was done on Jan 6, 2021 and the President of the United States at the time (Donald Trump) waited two hours to address the insurrection?

I recognize that many people swarmed Capitol Hill, and that some people broke into the Capitol Building

Here is what the "many people" look like:

I don't recognize the government as being overthrown.

Fortunately, due to the bravery of the police officers that were murdered and assaulted by Trump's anarchists, the US government wasn't overthrown.

I recognize that most of the people who were at Capitol Hill that day were peaceful, and that the few who broke into the building were, by definition, violent.

So we can both agree that the "few" in the above picture weren't told by President Donald Trump to "go home" until 2 hours after the attempt to violently overthrow the US government took place?

aCultureWarrior wrote:
You sure do give a lot of upvotes to Trump supporters.

Upvotes? This isn't Reddit.

"Likes"/Upvotes", no major difference, you approve of what they say.

I "like" posts by people that accurately reflect reality.

So you believe that someone who embraces libertarian doctrine "accurately reflect(s) reality"?

I don't consider a person's political stance when I "like" a post by them.

It just so happens that most (not all, as there are a few posts by people I don't normally agree with which I've "liked" in the past) of those posts are written by people who are on the right.

So you regularly give "likes" to people whose political stance is pro abortion? I doubt that you do, so why you do give libertarians whose doctrine reflects the pro abortion movement, and who are definitely NOT "on the right" likes?

Don't lose focus here, or at least clarify for me:

We were talking about the Founding Fathers and the form of government they put forth, yes?

So why are you now talking about diseases?

Your OP, from what I gather from reading other posts, dealt with the supposed "right" to defy government mandates on wearing masks, etc. during this deadly pandemic. My point is that the Founding Fathers used the force of government to quell the spread of disease during the numerous deadly pandemics that they dealt with.

Maybe you should go to the site I linked to in the OP.

No one has claimed that Paul Revere said those words.

I went to the site and did some research on the Founding Fathers and pandemics. I'm just pointing out that by using Paul Reveres name you appear to make it look like he felt the same way as you do about pandemics.

Define "libertarian," please.

Here, let me have a libertarian do it for you:
ok doser said:
I have the moral obligation not to impose my will upon others without their consent.

Likewise I have the moral obligation to oppose those who try to impose their will upon others without their consent.

As both you and I know, the above goes directly against biblical doctrine. Surely you don't "like" what this libertarian said do you and wouldn't you see such doctrine as an assault against Judeo-Christian doctrine?

On that note, I've made my point and will leave you be so that the above cancel culture warrior doesn't push you to cancel my posts like he has in two other threads.

Why is that allowed here, I thought TOL stood for the truth?

 

[eider]

Just like the good little tin-foil hat wearing sheep you are.

You must have figured out by now that I won't be responding to cheap baiting and insults.

As a Christian you are told to obey your laws. Now if you didn't know about that just ask me and I'll show you. But surely you couldn't be ignorant about that?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Here is what the "many people" look like:

I think you're splitting hairs.

Fortunately, due to the bravery of the police officers that were murdered and assaulted by Trump's anarchists, the US government wasn't overthrown.

So we can both agree that the "few" in the above picture weren't told by President Donald Trump to "go home" until 2 hours after the attempt to violently overthrow the US government took place?

aCultureWarrior wrote:
You sure do give a lot of upvotes to Trump supporters.


"Likes"/Upvotes", no major difference, you approve of what they say.

Because it accurately reflects reality.

So you believe that someone who embraces libertarian doctrine "accurately reflect(s) reality"?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So you regularly give "likes" to people whose political stance is pro abortion?

No, not "regularly."

On occasion I do, though it does seem to be decreasing.

I doubt that you do, so why you do give libertarians whose doctrine reflects the pro abortion movement, and who are definitely NOT "on the right" likes?

Because they said something that is right/correct, and for no other reason than that.

Again, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Your OP, from what I gather from reading other posts, dealt with the supposed "right" to defy government mandates on wearing masks, etc. during this deadly pandemic. My point is that the Founding Fathers used the force of government to quell the spread of disease during the numerous deadly pandemics that they dealt with.

I went to the site and did some research on the Founding Fathers and pandemics. I'm just pointing out that by using Paul Reveres name you appear to make it look like he felt the same way as you do about pandemics.

I'm not the one who used Paul Revere's name to make the site. You'll have to take the issue up with the site owner.

Here, let me have a libertarian do it for you:
ok doser said:
I have the moral obligation not to impose my will upon others without their consent.

Likewise I have the moral obligation to oppose those who try to impose their will upon others without their consent.

I don't see a definition of "libertarian" here.

Which is why I asked you to define it for me.

As both you and I know, the above goes directly against biblical doctrine.

Does "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" not ring a bell?

Surely you don't "like" what this libertarian said do you and wouldn't you see such doctrine as an assault against Judeo-Christian doctrine?

On that note, I've made my point and will leave you be so that the above cancel culture warrior doesn't push you to cancel my posts like he has in two other threads.

Why is that allowed here, I thought TOL stood for the truth?

I have no idea who or what you're referring to.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You must have figured out by now that I won't be responding to cheap baiting and insults.

And yet, here you are, responding to it...

As a Christian you are told to obey your laws.

But not blindly, and we're told to NOT obey them if they violate God's laws.

Now if you didn't know about that just ask me and I'll show you.

That's a funny idea, a deist attempting to school a Christian on what the Bible says.

But surely you couldn't be ignorant about that?

I'm less ignorant than you are when it comes to things concerning the Bible.

 

[Clete]

The countries here have made decisions about what we need to do. They then gave directions.
We will follow the directions.

You can call that what you like, we would call it being together.

Like slaves on ship, together?

 

[eider]

And yet, here you are, responding to it...

At least you have admitted that have you have been baiting and insulting me..... the above sentence shows that, yes?

But not blindly, and we're told to NOT obey them if they violate God's laws.

That's a funny idea, a deist attempting to school a Christian on what the Bible says.

I'm less ignorant than you are when it comes to things concerning the Bible.

You'll never know. I don't usually debate the bible here.

But again, I ask you, do you need me to show you where Christians are told to obey governments? I could at least help you with that.

 

[JudgeRightly]

At least you have admitted that have you have been baiting and insulting me..... the above sentence shows that, yes?

You'll never know. I don't usually debate the bible here.

OF COURSE YOU DON'T!

Because if you did, you'd have your tush handed to you on a platter.

But again, I ask you, do you need me to show you where Christians are told to obey governments? I could at least help you with that.

Read what I said again. That should answer your question.

But not blindly, and we're told to NOT obey them if they violate God's laws.

 

[eider]

Like slaves on ship, together?

More like a team, together.
If you don't want to obey your government, and try to incite others to disobey, that isn't being correct, it could even be criminal.

 

[eider]

OF COURSE YOU DON'T!

Because if you did, you'd have your tush handed to you on a platter.

If you say so. If you think so.

Read what I said again. That should answer your question.

...................

 

[Clete]

More like a team, together.
If you don't want to obey your government, and try to incite others to disobey, that isn't being correct, it could even be criminal.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

Typical leftist nonsense. I haven't any idea what in the world you're even doing on a debate forum.