The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

[Ninjashadow]

I recently heard a theory that God cannot possibly be omniscient and still allow humans to have free-will. The reason given was that if God knows what will happen tomorrow then a person has not made a conscious decision to do what God knew would happen. For instance: Let's say that tomorrow I mow my lawn (difficult given that it's winter, but let's just imagine). The theory says that if God is omniscient, then I did not choose to mow my lawn because he already knew that it was going to happen. I had no other choice but to mow my lawn because God KNEW it was going to happen. It only appears that I had a choice.

I don't agree with this theory because God might have known that I was going to mow my lawn, he did not influence it. Free-will is a person being able to make a choice. Foreknowledge does not keep a person from making a decision, nor does it influence the decision. It is simply already knowing which choice a person will make. I see it (to a very simplified degree) like someone being able to see into the future. If my neighbor could peer into the future and saw me mowing my lawn the next day, he did not influence me to mow my lawn. Oh and please don't try to use the argument that my neighbor could have said something or done something after seeing the future that would have caused me to mow my lawn. My neighbor is not God, I was just using it as an example.

 

[Greywolf]

*Sits back and waits for Knight, Clete, Sozo, Z Man, and Hilston to come running*


Oh, and welcome to TOL. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Ninjashadow]

Uh, thanks, I think.

 

[Greywolf]

Originally posted by ninjashadow
Uh, thanks, I think.

Give it a day or so, and you'll see what I mean. :chuckle:
If you want, you may want to look at this thread. It might help you with your question, and as a bonus you'll see what I was talking about.


I'm an agnostic, so the whole OV vs. Calvinism bit is little more than an intellectual excercise for me, one that I am not informed on well enough to help you out.

But it never hurts to welcome newcomers.

 

[Ninjashadow]

I'm not a calvanist or whatever, the whole theory just seems kind of hollow.

 

[Lighthouse]

Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Look at that. I beat all the others to it.

Originally posted by ninjashadow

I recently heard a theory that God cannot possibly be omniscient and still allow humans to have free-will. The reason given was that if God knows what will happen tomorrow then a person has not made a conscious decision to do what God knew would happen. For instance: Let's say that tomorrow I mow my lawn (difficult given that it's winter, but let's just imagine). The theory says that if God is omniscient, then I did not choose to mow my lawn because he already knew that it was going to happen. I had no other choice but to mow my lawn because God KNEW it was going to happen. It only appears that I had a choice.

Omniscience only means to know all there is to know. The future doesn't exist, so how could God know it. He knows possibilities, but no certainties, because it does not exist.

I don't agree with this theory because God might have known that I was going to mow my lawn, he did not influence it. Free-will is a person being able to make a choice. Foreknowledge does not keep a person from making a decision, nor does it influence the decision. It is simply already knowing which choice a person will make. I see it (to a very simplified degree) like someone being able to see into the future. If my neighbor could peer into the future and saw me mowing my lawn the next day, he did not influence me to mow my lawn. Oh and please don't try to use the argument that my neighbor could have said something or done something after seeing the future that would have caused me to mow my lawn. My neighbor is not God, I was just using it as an example.

Do you think God could know something that doesn't exist?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Originally posted by ninjashadow
I don't agree with this theory because God might have known that I was going to mow my lawn, he did not influence it.

Are you insinuating that God's foreknowledge is NOT perfect and complete? (YES or NO)?

After you answer I will respond.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh and just so you know.... using the example of mowing one's lawn the next day isn't a great example because there are no theologies that I know of that deny that God knows all of our current intentions etc. Therefore any theology (within reason) would agree that God would know that you are going to mow your lawn tomorrow. Heck! Even your wife probably knows you are going to mow your lawn tomorrow.

How about this example....

Does God know - right now - (in every detail) that a baby boy will be born on June 2nd 2025. That babies name will be Skip. Skip will grow up to be a computer programmer and marry a girl named Sharon at age 35. They will have 3 kids Johnny, Cindy and Brett.

Skip will live his life in rejection to God and die without God's forgiveness at age 62.

Assuming all that will eventually come to pass does God know all hat perfectly and exhaustively right now as I type this? (YES or NO)?

 

[Ninjashadow]

Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Originally posted by Knight

Are you insinuating that God's foreknowledge is NOT perfect and complete? (YES or NO)?

After you answer I will respond.

I think his foreknowledge IS perfect. God is perfect, therefore his foreknowlege has to be.

 

[Lighthouse]

Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Originally posted by ninjashadow

I think his foreknowledge IS perfect. God is perfect, therefore his foreknowlege has to be.

For His foreknowledge to be perfect He would not know that which has not happened, because it hasn't happened. It doesn't exist. It is not possible to know.

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by Knight

Oh and just so you know.... using the example of mowing one's lawn the next day isn't a great example because there are no theologies that I know of that deny that God knows all of our current intentions etc. Therefore any theology (within reason) would agree that God would know that you are going to mow your lawn tomorrow. Heck! Even your wife probably knows you are going to mow your lawn tomorrow.

How about this example....

Does God know - right now - (in every detail) that a baby boy will be born on June 2nd 2025. That babies name will be Skip. Skip will grow up to be a computer programmer and marry a girl named Sharon at age 35. They will have 3 kids Johnny, Cindy and Brett.

Skip will live his life in rejection to God and die without God's forgiveness at age 62.

Assuming all that will eventually come to pass does God know all hat perfectly and exhaustively right now as I type this? (YES or NO)?

I think that he does. I think that God is outside of our time frame (we start at A and continue thusly: --> forever forward). God is not limited to any time frame.

With the example of Skip, yes God knew, but he did not influence Skip to reject him. God would have forgiven Skip as soon as Skip would have asked for it. Perhaps God had put people into Skips life that would have told him about God's love and how Jesus died, yet Skip ignored them.

 

[Ninjashadow]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Originally posted by lighthouse

For His foreknowledge to be perfect He would not know that which has not happened, because it hasn't happened. It doesn't exist. It is not possible to know.

Then how did the prophets tell about what was going to happen? Just vague generalitites? So maybe God is alot like Nostradomus (no, I don't think that, it's just an example).

 

[Lighthouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Then how did the prophets tell about what was going to happen? Just vague generalitites? So maybe God is alot like Nostradomus (no, I don't think that, it's just an example).

That question always comes up. And the answer is simple. God knows what He is going to do. And all prophecies that God's prophets made were for things that God was going to do. God planned certain things, had a prophet speak of it, then brought it to pass. But sometimes God changed His mind, because of man's reaction [Nineveh]. And God even promised to change His mind for Noah, if a certain number of good people could be found. But since God found no one other than Noah and his family...God flooded the Earth. Also, David, after Nathan confronted him and prophesied that his son [in Bathsheba's womb] would die, prayed that God would let the child live. Apparently David believed that God could change His mind. How could God change His mind, if He knew what was going to happen, already?

 

[Ninjashadow]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

Originally posted by lighthouse

That question always comes up. And the answer is simple. God knows what He is going to do. And all prophecies that God's prophets made were for things that God was going to do. God planned certain things, had a prophet speak of it, then brought it to pass. But sometimes God changed His mind, because of man's reaction [Nineveh]. And God even promised to change His mind for Noah, if a certain number of good people could be found. But since God found no one other than Noah and his family...God flooded the Earth. Also, David, after Nathan confronted him and prophesied that his son [in Bathsheba's womb] would die, prayed that God would let the child live. Apparently David believed that God could change His mind. How could God change His mind, if He knew what was going to happen, already?

Just because God knows what's going to happen, doesn't mean he is limited to what will happen. I realize that this sounds like a contradiction, but it really isn't. He can change his mind because he is God and he is not limiteed in anyway. Besides, free will still exist because even though God knew what was going to happen he still allowed those people an out, as it were. However, they chose to ignore it.

 

[Lighthouse]

If God allows an out for them, then He thinks they may choose it. Which means he does not know if they will choose it or not.

If you believe that God exhaustively knows the future, then you don't believe that we can do anything other than waht God knows will happen, do you? So the real question is, can we do something that is contrary to what God knows will happen? The answer is that we couldn't. So, if we have free will, then God does not know everything that is going to happen. And a really good question is, "Why would God allow for options if He knew what we were going to do? If He knew that someone would never turn to Him, why would He allow that person the option? If He knew the person was never going to choose that option, why even allow for it?

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

If God allows an out for them, then He thinks they may choose it. Which means he does not know if they will choose it or not.

If you believe that God exhaustively knows the future, then you don't believe that we can do anything other than waht God knows will happen, do you? So the real question is, can we do something that is contrary to what God knows will happen? The answer is that we couldn't. So, if we have free will, then God does not know everything that is going to happen. And a really good question is, "Why would God allow for options if He knew what we were going to do? If He knew that someone would never turn to Him, why would He allow that person the option? If He knew the person was never going to choose that option, why even allow for it?

Because He is all good and He wants for every person to accept Jesus as their Lord. He has to give the people the choice, even if He knows they will not choose it. Otherwise he would not be all good.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

I think that he does. I think that God is outside of our time frame (we start at A and continue thusly: --> forever forward). God is not limited to any time frame.

With the example of Skip, yes God knew, but he did not influence Skip to reject him. God would have forgiven Skip as soon as Skip would have asked for it. Perhaps God had put people into Skips life that would have told him about God's love and how Jesus died, yet Skip ignored them.

OK... good we have now established that you feel God's foreknowledge is both perfect and exhaustive.

Now I think.... if you really put honest thought to this issue you will see that if God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge then that knowledge closes the future and removes man's freewill.

And here is how.... IF, God knows skips future choices exhaustively before Skip even exists then that means that no other possibilities about the course of future actions are actual possibilities. ONLY the version of the future in God's knowledge is an actual possibility.

Therefore.... Skip has no ability to do anything other than what is contained in God's foreknowledge. This reality is simply not compatible with true freewill.

Where the rubber meets the road.
If God's foreknowledge is perfect and exhaustive Skip is locked into a path that he cannot alter. If Skip cannot alter his future Skip has no freewill. There is no escaping this fact.

YES or NO
Assuming our earlier scenario about Skip dying unsaved were true in God's perfect foreknowledge does Skip have the ability to repent and choose to accept Christ and His work on the cross?

If you answer YES God's foreknowledge could not be perfect or exhaustive.

If you answer NO you are conceding that Skip has no freewill.

 

[Ninjashadow]

And here is how.... IF, God knows skips future choices exhaustively before Skip even exists then that means that no other possibilities about the course of future actions are actual possibilities. ONLY the version of the future in God's knowledge is an actual possibility.

Let me ask you a yes or no question. Yes or No, did God influence Skip's choice to reject him?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Let me ask you a yes or no question. Yes or No, did God influence Skip's choice to reject him?

I asked you first. Just kidding... I love answering these questions with direct answers.

You asked.... "did God influence Skip's choice to reject him?"

From my perspective as an open theist?

Answer.... NO, God influenced Skip to CHOOSE Him NOT to reject Him. God desires all men choose Him (1Timothy 2:4) and draws all men to Him (John 12:32). Therefore God couldn't have influenced Skip to reject Him.

But from your perspective as a closed theist...

Answer... YES. Not only did God's foreknowledge influence Skip but it DIRECTED Skip in every detail. Skip was nothing more than a puppet perfectly executing God's foreknowledge.

 

[Ninjashadow]

Answer.... NO, God influenced Skip to CHOOSE Him NOT to reject Him. God desires all men choose Him (1Timothy 2:4) and draws all men to Him (John 12:32). Therefore God couldn't have influenced Skip to reject Him.

But my problem with open theism is that free will is voluntary action and knowledge does not create action. It just seems to me that open theism limits God and keeps him from being all-Powerful and all-Knowing.