The Terrible God of Calvinism

[NickCharles]

No, all are capable of hearing, but they have selective hearing...like many a man. :chuckle:

So one must decide to believe? Is that what you say the text means?

 

[glorydaz]

More insults.

Let's do it this way. Does everyone hear, glorydaz says?

Please be careful about saying what you think I've said as if I've said it. I know it's tempting, and I may not be as clear as I should, but it's nicer if we can keep it simple.

 

[glorydaz]

So one must decide to believe? Is that what you say the text means?

No, I didn't decide to believe, any more than I decided to believe it was raining when my clothes got wet.

The rain persuaded me.

 

[NickCharles]

Please be careful about saying what you think I've said as if I've said it. I know it's tempting, and I may not be as clear as I should, but it's nicer if we can keep it simple.

You said they have to hear. I took it as face value.

 

[NickCharles]

No, I didn't decide to believe, any more than I decided to believe it was raining when my clothes got wet.



The rain persuaded me.

Wrong question. My mistake. Do they decide to hear?

 

[patrick jane]

So one must decide to believe? Is that what you say the text means?

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" - Simon & Garfunkel

 

[NickCharles]

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" - Simon & Garfunkel

You are quoting pagans to explain scripture?

 

[glorydaz]

But scripture says that you cannot please God in the flesh. So however you want to portray it, something still must change.

Before I was saved (in the flesh without the Spirit of God in me), I could try to do what I knew was right, but I was doing it by my own efforts. God wants us to be created IN CHIRST Jesus and allow the Spirit to work through us. That is what pleases God. Believing is not something we DO, thus you cannot use the verse about pleasing God to discount believing because believing is not our DOING anything. Our believing is God DOING the PERSUADING. Those who are at a point in their lives where they are persuadable are ready (prepared) to hear God's message of salvation. They hear and believe.

What changes? I was READY to be persuaded by God. I could even list out the things that happened in my life to prepare me. I'm thinking most people can. What makes us ready to finally listen to our Creator? Life happens.

 

[NickCharles]

Before I was saved (in the flesh without the Spirit of God in me), I could try to do what I knew was right, but I was doing it by my own efforts. God wants us to be created IN CHIRST Jesus and allow the Spirit to work through us. That is what pleases God. Believing is not something we DO, thus you cannot use the verse about pleasing God to discount believing because believing is not our DOING anything. Our believing is God DOING the PERSUADING. Those who are at a point in their lives where they are persuadable are ready (prepared) to hear God's message of salvation. They hear and believe.



What changes? I was READY to be persuaded by God. I could even list out the things that happened in my life to prepare me. I'm thinking most people can. What makes us ready to finally listen to our Creator? Life happens.

Okay. Call it what you want. Is being READY to be persuaded pleasing to God?

 

[glorydaz]

Okay. Call it what you want. Is being READY to be persuaded pleasing to God?

Being ready isn't something I did, either.

Those with the Spirit dwelling in them are pleasing God....everything they do through the Spirit pleases God. If you really want to dwell on that verse then you should try to understand what Paul is saying there in Romans 8. Hearing and believing the Gospel is not what Paul is talking about. He is saying those without the Spirit can't do anything by their own efforts that will please Him. Notice the DO part. Believing is not something we DO.

 

[NickCharles]

Being ready isn't something I did, either.



Those with the Spirit dwelling in them are pleasing God....everything they do through the Spirit pleases God. If you really want to dwell on that verse then you should try to understand what Paul is saying there in Romans 8. Hearing and believing the Gospel is not what Paul is talking about. He is saying those without the Spirit can't do anything by their own efforts that will please Him. Notice the DO part. Believing is not something we DO.

So you are saying that you really had no control over your salvation? You didn't actually do anything?

 

[glorydaz]

You said they have to hear. I took it as face value.

Wrong question. My mistake. Do they decide to hear?

Are you doing this on purpose? It seems to me that you are being evasive rather than responsive. You know, sorta like having a discussion would be nice.

 

[NickCharles]

Are you doing this on purpose? It seems to me that you are being evasive rather than responsive. You know, sorta like having a discussion would be nice.

No, I asked the wrong question. The question I originally asked was a bit of a non sequitur. I didn't realize my error until you responded.

 

[musterion]

Are you doing this on purpose? It seems to me that you are being evasive rather than responsive. You know, sorta like having a discussion would be nice.

How long can you hold your breath?

 

[glorydaz]

So you are saying that you really had no control over your salvation? You didn't actually do anything?

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

I was fully persuaded and believed in my heart not just my head. The word of God is powerful. Therefore, I can honestly give the Lord all the glory. All my trust is in Him and has been since the day I heard the Gospel and believed. Now I tell others so they can hear and believe the way I did.

 

[NickCharles]

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.



I was fully persuaded and believed in my heart not just my head. The word of God is powerful. Therefore, I can honestly give the Lord all the glory. All my trust is in Him and has been since the day I heard the Gospel and believed. Now I tell others so they can hear and believe the way I did.

Then that's no different than Calvinism.

 

[glorydaz]

Then that's no different than Calvinism.

Of course it is, but the difference isn't as huge as some would make it. Unless I'm wrong. Calvinists say we are saved so that we can believe. I say it's the Word of God that persuades men to believe. They always fall back on the idea that men aren't able to be persuaded. That's where I see their error in regards to salvation.

 

[NickCharles]

Of course it is, but the difference isn't as huge as some would make it. Unless I'm wrong. Calvinists say we are saved so that we can believe. I say it's the Word of God that persuades men to believe. They always fall back on the idea that men aren't able to be persuaded. That's where I see their error in regards to salvation.

The word of God is the means God uses to save. We cannot choose to believe, as you say. So either there's something about us that makes us believe (smarter, more humble, more spiritual, etc), or the change comes from without.

 

[musterion]

The word of God is the means God uses to save.

Not if Calvinistic election is true: the salvation of the elect was unconditionally finished in eternity past; believing the Gospel is simply a meaningless formality that (if persevered in) proves the election took place. All of which makes God a liar because it denies the Gospel and negates faith. You're preaching slander against God.

 

[NickCharles]

Not if Calvinistic election is true: the salvation of the elect was unconditionally finished in eternity past; believing the Gospel is simply a meaningless formality that (if persevered in) proves the election took place. All of which makes God a liar because it denies the Gospel and negates faith. You're preaching slander against God.

Creating a straw man is a logical fallacy. We are elected unto salvation. Election is not justification, predestination, etc.