The Slaying of Reformed Theology (Calvinism)

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Bump for [MENTION=19651]cgaviria[/MENTION]

; )

 

[freelight]

honest observations.......points of view are subject to CHANGE......

honest observations.......points of view are subject to CHANGE......

Spoiler

Yes, for the benefit of [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] no doubt! Here is my rehash concerning Total Depravity for Lon's perusal, which is now from two Calvinist threads, this one and another where these replies were posted with what will be found from Enoch at the bottom of this post, (from the other thread). I will leave most of it outside the quote boxes so that it may be responded to if Lon so desires.


Deuteronomy 1:39 ASV
39 Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

This is yet again the same kind of typology and analogy where the "old man" dies off in the wilderness and the "new man" enters into the promised inheritance. It is not that anyone is "perfect" but that the mind of Messiah, (his Testimony), must be put on while the old man must be cut off and allowed to die off in the wilderness along the way to the promised land. When you cross the Jordan you will see a hill of foreskins: leave the foreskin of your heart there, on the mountain of flesh, as you enter into the Land.



Deut 24:16, Jer 31:29-31, (New Covenant Language), Eze 18:1-20, (New Covenant Language).

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:29-31 KJV
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

What is this proverb of which he speaks, "The fathers have eaten the sour grape: the children's teeth are set on edge"? No doubt this concerns a more ancient version of the so-called original sin doctrine which was held among some Israelites because of the creation narrative. The Prophet Jeremiah says it will not stand because, as the Torah clearly states, every one will die for his own sin. Moreover this is the famous Jeremiah passage concerning the New Covenant which is quoted in Hebrews chapter eight. And what does the Prophet Ezekiel say about it?

Exekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

There is therefore no choice but to part oneself asunder and put to death the "old man" nature because the soul that sins shall die. It is therefore just as I said to you previously herein, ********, and as I also said, Yeshua teaches these things in his doctrine:

Matthew 10:38-39
38 And the one not taking up his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 The one finding his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and the one apollumi-destroying his soul for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:23-26
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Yeshua to his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and zemiow-lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Luke 9:23-25
23 And he said to them all, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his soul shall destroy it: but whosoever will destroy his soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 14:26-27
26 If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, even his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever does not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

It is just as Paul likewise teaches throughout: putting to death or mortifying your own "members" which are upon your own land, or mortifying the deeds of the body, that is, cutting off sin from your household-body-temple which is no more your own when you enter into Yeshua faithfulness.



Jeremiah 31:29-31 = New Covenant Language = Ezekiel 18:1-4

The old proverb-parable of the original sin total depravity doctrine:

"Adam ate the sour grape, the children's teeth are set on edge!"

What the Father says about that proverb-doctrine in New Covenant language:

"As I live, says Adonai YHWH, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Yisrael."



And whether anyone believes it or not the Yhudim received this proverb by Enoch:

Enoch 31:1-5
1 After these things, surveying the entrances of the north, above the mountains, I perceived seven mountains replete with pure nard, odoriferous trees, cinnamon and papyrus.
2 From thence I passed on above the summits of those mountains to some distance eastwards, and went over the Erythræan sea. And when I was advanced far beyond it, I passed along above the angel Zateel, and arrived at the garden of righteousness. In this garden I beheld, among other trees, some which were numerous and large, and which flourished there.
3 Their fragrance was agreeable and powerful, and their appearance both varied and elegant. The tree of knowledge also was there, of which if any one eats, he becomes endowed with great wisdom.
4 It was like a species of the tamarind tree, bearing fruit which resembled grapes extremely fine; and its fragrance extended to a considerable distance. I exclaimed, How beautiful is this tree, and how delightful is its appearance!
5 Then holy Raphael, an angel who was with me, answered and said, This is the tree of knowledge, of which thy ancient father and thy aged mother ate, who were before thee; and who, obtaining knowledge, their eyes being opened, and knowing themselves to be naked, were expelled from the garden.
http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-31/

So we see that some of the Israelites of old time were teaching the same thing that the Calvinists and most of Christianity are still teaching today; and those who taught it then got that teaching from certain statements in the Torah, (for example, Exo 20:5, 34:7, Num 14:18, Deut 5:9). And we know, from the book of Enoch, that they received their understanding of the grape of the vine-tree of the knowledge of good and evil from that same book, (and whether one wishes to consider it canonical or not does not matter because at one time the Yhudim did highly esteem that work before the advent of Messiah). There are likewise some references to this concept in the commonly accepted canonical scriptures where we do read of the "vine-tree" in a few passages, (Num 6:4 KJV, Eze 15:2 KJV ('ets ha-gefen) Eze 15:6 KJV ('ets ha-gefen)). Thus there really is no doubt that the proverb mentioned in both the Jer 31:29-31 New Covenant passage and repeated in Eze 18:1-20 is an ancient proverb which concerns the teaching of original sin, that is, the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity and essentially their foundation, even the "T" in Tulip: and yet the Father says such a teaching is never to be used again, and certainly not anymore in the Jer 31:29-34 New Covenant which is quoted from in Hebrews 8:8-12. Everyone who eats the sour grape, his own teeth shall be set on edge; for every one shall die for his own iniquity. Therefore the only way to understand this in the light of the Testimony of Messiah is to take up our own stakes and crosses and die the way he says to die, even as Paul likewise says, to mortify our own members and put to death the deeds of the body. It is a daily dying of which it speaks, as interpreted by Messiah himself, for the Father is Love and is not interested or pleased with physical death and dying. He wants to see sin and evil put to death; and He wants to see His people at least trying to do so in the name of His Son by the Testimony of Yeshua. :Nineveh:

Yes daqq,

The 'Total Depravity' doctrine is destructive. Im much more a supporter of the Creation Spirituality tradition pioneered by Matthew Fox, hilighted in his book 'Original Blessing'. While some are focused on the corruption of creation, others recognize the holiness and beauty of it. - in Original Sin' we see presuppositional tacts in theology to support what the belief-system presents as a "solution",...so its a self-fixing system, which provides its own contractual terms. - all the believers in the 'contract' are good, just so long as the 'dogma' is upheld,...and so the 'system' is defended with its own host of 'apologists', hence its NEED for 'apologetic ministries'.

I was wondering if you were familiar with Overstreet's dissertation on Original Sin here

I'm looking into some of Augustine's thoughts on 'original sin' and 'free will', who influenced the likes of reformers after him. Then his battle with Pelagius, so also researching the philosophical tensions therein. I like to expand further on the proposition of God's foreknowledge affecting free will, and the question if God really knows the future in its fullness, which of course qustions the classical assumption of absolute omniscience. These are biggies to tackle - my sharing of the Urantia Book's view on free will holds here.

If Lon will read the above and really question/research things, perhaps he will have gained something thereby. I also shared with him my adequate coverage of Calvinism here in the 'Nazi God' thread, to which he will not acknowledge or consider, just because I don't use enough 'scripture'? so he deems it a waste of time. The thing is, I address principle, and question a thing by conscience, reason, logic, common sense and other qualifiers,....which are to be used along with spiritual discernment, of course. If one doesn't invest the research, he is apt to be thus deprived of what he could GAIN if he had. - and thus the cycle of ignorance or enlightenment continues....by your own CHOICE. - a 'freedom' by the way that Calvinism deprives man, thus increasing the concept of bondage and FATE. Talk about 'grid-lock'? - of course some of the calvies are using my term 'grid-lock' and other creative word terms I employ against me - gotta have some fun eh ?

Also, dealing with beloved57, Nanja, TB and the like, is just like playing 'ping pong',...its the same ole balls and wooden table board,....but the balls appear to have strong elastic strings attached to them superglued to the table so no matter where you hit or project the balls...they are STUCK to the same ole table - its just bonkers. - and they say I'm 'grid-locked' LOL

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Howdey

@Lon

Are you "Reformed" ? I'm not certain.

 

[freelight]

Continuing Video Lecture Series

Continuing Video Lecture Series

Continuing video lecture series -

Here is the complete video of the released version of the debate between two Calvinist professors , Bruce Ware and Tom Schreiner, and two Wesleyan scholars, Joe Dongell and Jerry Walls. The debate took place in 2001 in Lexington, KY.

:thumb:

 

[Lon]

The 6 Theses hang on the door as simple, irrefutable scriptural truths.

I do believe, with you, that scripture is irrefutable. I've only tackled a little bit of this so that I can meaningfully respond.
I like that you spent a lot of time on this, but I wonder if you really wanted to have to read a response to this whole behemoth!

(you might want to, but I'm assuming not all in one chunk anyway)

As I respond, please bring up any points made in this opening that were more important to you and we'll talk about them in their smaller pieces?
Thanks, either way. -Lon

1: Is God a promoter of Sin? Absolutely Not
Scripture for 1

Agreed but some Calvinists would say He is. I guess, for me, the main point being that the majority of Calvinists do not believe God is the author or promoter of sin. He is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all. I guess I'm saying we might nail the same concern on the wall, even if our grievance was worded a bit differently.

2: Let no man teach you
Scripture for 2

Shoot, I've got a ton of verses that agree with you that came to mind all of the sudden BUT let me give you a couple of others for your own study and contemplations: Proverbs 22:6 James 3:1 1 Corinthians 12:28 1 Timothy 3:2 2 Timothy 2:2 Hebrews 5:12

3: Let your yes be yes and your no be no, anything else is from the evil one

This Matthew reference fully destroys a doctrine based believer's ability to skirt around any direct question with a wall of theological effort.

Even Peter said some of Paul's writing were difficult. I'm not sure 'yes' always has to be simple. The trinity, for example, is a difficult discussion. I think we can say simply: "There is One God: Father, Son, and Spirit are/is Him."

4: God shows no favoritism

This James reference is razor sharp and when used in conjunction with 1 - 3, it becomes impossible to defend the doctrine of election and reprobation.

Okay, I agree about the favoritism issue. Both Arminians and Calvinists agreed on this point, BUT saw favoritism in each other's belief.

5: God is Love

Calvinism must narrow the scope of God's Love to support its claim that God specifically created and reprobated certain persons to "eternal" punishment. This 1 John reference makes it impossible to deny that Love is God's supreme attribute.
6: Love knows no limit to its endurance, no end to its trust, no fading of its hope; it can outlast anything. It is, in fact, the one thing that still stands when all else has fallen.

This excerpt from 1st Corinthians makes it irrefutable that God's Love has no bounds or limits.

Christ is the chief Cornerstone, the Foundation of one man's house, and the stumbling block of the other. Love will, I believe, by necessity, cause on or the other. Woe to that man/woman that stumbles.

Note: Calvin taught eternal hell fire, thus it is impossible to soften this from reformed doctrine.

All of Christianity teaches this. It is a gauntlet thrown at the door of all of Christendom. It is fine to throw it at our door too, but just realize it isn't Calvinist specific. -Lon

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION]

I do believe, with you, that scripture is irrefutable. I've only tackled a little bit of this so that I can meaningfully respond.
I like that you spent a lot of time on this, but I wonder if you really wanted to have to read a response to this whole behemoth!

(you might want to, but I'm assuming not all in one chunk anyway)

As I respond, please bring up any points made in this opening that were more important to you and we'll talk about them in their smaller pieces?
Thanks, either way. -Lon



Agreed but some Calvinists would say He is. I guess, for me, the main point being that the majority of Calvinists do not believe God is the author or promoter of sin. He is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all. I guess I'm saying we might nail the same concern on the wall, even if our grievance was worded a bit differently.

Shoot, I've got a ton of verses that agree with you that came to mind all of the sudden BUT let me give you a couple of others for your own study and contemplations: Proverbs 22:6 James 3:1 1 Corinthians 12:28 1 Timothy 3:2 2 Timothy 2:2 Hebrews 5:12



Even Peter said some of Paul's writing were difficult. I'm not sure 'yes' always has to be simple. The trinity, for example, is a difficult discussion. I think we can say simply: "There is One God: Father, Son, and Spirit are/is Him."
Okay, I agree about the favoritism issue. Both Arminians and Calvinists agreed on this point, BUT saw favoritism in each other's belief.


Christ is the chief Cornerstone, the Foundation of one man's house, and the stumbling block of the other. Love will, I believe, by necessity, cause on or the other. Woe to that man/woman that stumbles.


All of Christianity teaches this. It is a gauntlet thrown at the door of all of Christendom. It is fine to throw it at our door too, but just realize it isn't Calvinist specific. -Lon

You blew me away by what you wrote on the Exposing the Anti Christ Spirit of Spiritual Death Thread. I hear the voice of the Good Shepherd in your words.

Because you have shown such open mindedness to the Supremacy of Scripture and the Spirit of Jesus Christ... I would like to close this thread down...

I would like to bury this hatchet. I have challenges for you, though, that involve my two major OPs. I need to take a break from them and ToL for a bit.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...sault-on-Satan-(Evil-s-lt-(I)-gt-Naughty-List)

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123641-Anti-Christ-Spirit-of-Spiritual-Death-Exposed

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] is very strong at defending all of the points in these OPs. The only point you disagree with is the Spiritual Israel matter of the Direct assault OP. However... you get along with [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] [MENTION=15685]musterion[/MENTION] [MENTION=12870]steko[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1851]john w[/MENTION]. ... for the sake of a challenge and the shutting down of this Slaying thread... would you put a minimal effort in for the next week or so in defense and floating of these OPs and coordinate with your friends of the Mad and Open Theism flavor to assist in the points you are uncomfortable with?

Would you take over these two OP's for the next week or so?

 

[meshak]

Howdey

@Lon

Are you "Reformed" ? I'm not certain.

You still don't know? Yes, he certainly is.

 

[Lon]

@Lon

You blew me away by what you wrote on the Exposing the Anti Christ Spirit of Spiritual Death Thread. I hear the voice of the Good Shepherd in your words.

Because you have shown such open mindedness to the Supremacy of Scripture and the Spirit of Jesus Christ... I would like to close this thread down...

Have a great break, will see you in a couple of weeks. -Lon

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Have a great break, will see you in a couple of weeks. -Lon

I will make one final comment on each thread, in acknowledgment to your excellent work! I have watched each thread and your demeanor is bringing a cool head to them that is less abrasive than my kill em all style. I'll make one more comment to Marhig and Freelight about the difference between a son/bondservant and a slave on the direct assault thread. I'll also make one more address to GT as well.

They are sincere, but if there's one thing I don't take well to, it's if one drop of works is added to (grace through faith, alone) in respects to salvation. I'm leaving this OP up until the close of the 2 weeks, but...

Because of your reflection of Christ in the way you responded to me... I'm removing a portion from the OP that is rather harsh towards [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] and I am declaring any extra posting in this OP against Calvinism to be outside of my will or volition.

You are a true bond servant and son of the servant King of kings!

My time away will start when I make the unquoted turnover in each of the two OP's that you are handling incredibly. On the Spiritual Israel aspect of the direct assault OP... I have not addressed that as open discussion yet, anyways. You are more than capable of defending the other 4 points!

- EE

 

[Lon]

They are sincere, but if there's one thing I don't take well to, it's if one drop of works is added to (grace through faith, alone) in respects to salvation.

Agreed. They have polite demeanors but deny the gospel of salvation and the Lord Jesus Christ as Only Savior and begotten.

@Lon
. I have challenges for you, though, that involve my two major OPs. I need to take a break from them and ToL for a bit.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...sault-on-Satan-(Evil-s-lt-(I)-gt-Naughty-List)

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123641-Anti-Christ-Spirit-of-Spiritual-Death-Exposed

Btw, one of these I responded to previously and so may have missed the need to respond. I responded to the other.

You are a true bond servant and son of the servant King of kings!

Thank you. AMR says "unprofitable servant." I think it leads back to us being naught but planters and waterers..."God gives the increase." 1 Corinthians 3:6 2 Timothy 4:5 1 Peter 4:8
In Him, working on grace and humility... -Lon

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I would close this thread without bumping it if I could, but it is closed because [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] was tested by myself. I came at him as disrespectfully as I could and he followed the teachings of Jesus. I asked him if he would serve on two of my threads in my absence and he has done so. He is a genuine servant of the humble King of kings and LORD of lords.

I have different understandings than Calvinism, but I recognize that there are Christians that come in a Calvinist wrapping paper.

Because of [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] 's humble demeanor and honest following of scripture before any denomination... my axe with Calvinism is officially buried. I will debate and share various perspective, but my focus is no longer towards Calvinism.

Let it be said that [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] is a disciple of Jesus and bond servant of God that exalts Christ and scripture above denomination or theological affiliation.

- Thread closed!

(1 Co. 1:13)