Yes, for the benefit of [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] no doubt! Here is my rehash concerning Total Depravity for Lon's perusal, which is now from two Calvinist threads, this one and another where these replies were posted with what will be found from Enoch at the bottom of this post, (from the other thread). I will leave most of it outside the quote boxes so that it may be responded to if Lon so desires.
Your "original sin" happened the first time you willfully sinned, just as everyone else, and before that day you were innocent. Just because all sin, and all fall short, does not translate into the "original sin" doctrine which most use primarily for theologic purposes.
Deuteronomy 1:39 ASV
39 Moreover your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, and your children, that this day have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
This is yet again the same kind of typology and analogy where the "old man" dies off in the wilderness and the "new man" enters into the promised inheritance. It is not that anyone is "perfect" but that the mind of Messiah, (his Testimony), must be
put on while the old man must be
cut off and allowed to
die off in the wilderness along the way to the promised land. When you cross the Jordan you will see a hill of foreskins: leave the foreskin of your heart there, on the mountain of flesh, as you enter into the Land.
Deut 24:16, Jer 31:29-31, (New Covenant Language), Eze 18:1-20, (New Covenant Language).
Deut 24:16, Jer 31:29-31, (New Covenant Language), Eze 18:1-20, (New Covenant Language).
Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Jeremiah 31:29-31 KJV
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
What is this proverb of which he speaks, "The fathers have eaten the sour grape: the children's teeth are set on edge"? No doubt this concerns a more ancient version of the so-called original sin doctrine which was held among some Israelites because of the creation narrative. The Prophet Jeremiah says it will not stand because, as the Torah clearly states, every one will die for his own sin. Moreover this is the famous Jeremiah passage concerning the New Covenant which is quoted in Hebrews chapter eight. And what does the Prophet Ezekiel say about it?
Exekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
There is therefore no choice but to part oneself asunder and put to death the "old man" nature because the soul that sins shall die. It is therefore just as I said to you previously herein, ********, and as I also said, Yeshua teaches these things in his doctrine:
Matthew 10:38-39
38 And the one not taking up his cross and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 The one finding his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and the one apollumi-destroying his soul for my sake shall find it.
Matthew 16:23-26
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you savor not the things that be of Elohim, but those that be of men.
24 Then said Yeshua to his disciples, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his soul for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and zemiow-lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Luke 9:23-25
23 And he said to them all, If anyone will come after me, let him utterly-disown himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his soul shall destroy it: but whosoever will destroy his soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Luke 14:26-27
26 If anyone come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, even his own soul also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever does not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
It is just as Paul likewise teaches throughout: putting to death or mortifying your own "members" which are upon your own land, or mortifying the deeds of the body, that is, cutting off sin from your household-body-temple which is no more your own when you enter into Yeshua faithfulness.
Jeremiah 31:29-31 = New Covenant Language = Ezekiel 18:1-4
Jeremiah 31:29-31 = New Covenant Language = Ezekiel 18:1-4
The old proverb-parable of the original sin
total depravity doctrine:
"Adam ate the sour grape, the children's teeth are set on edge!"
What the Father says about that proverb-doctrine in New Covenant language:
"As I live, says Adonai YHWH, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Yisrael."
And whether anyone believes it or not the Yhudim received this proverb by Enoch:
And whether anyone believes it or not the Yhudim received this proverb by Enoch:
Enoch 31:1-5
1 After these things, surveying the entrances of the north, above the mountains, I perceived seven mountains replete with pure nard, odoriferous trees, cinnamon and papyrus.
2 From thence I passed on above the summits of those mountains to some distance eastwards, and went over the Erythræan sea. And when I was advanced far beyond it, I passed along above the angel Zateel, and arrived at the garden of righteousness. In this garden I beheld, among other trees, some which were numerous and large, and which flourished there.
3 Their fragrance was agreeable and powerful, and their appearance both varied and elegant. The tree of knowledge also was there, of which if any one eats, he becomes endowed with great wisdom.
4 It was like a species of the tamarind tree, bearing fruit which resembled grapes extremely fine; and its fragrance extended to a considerable distance. I exclaimed, How beautiful is this tree, and how delightful is its appearance!
5 Then holy Raphael, an angel who was with me, answered and said, This is the tree of knowledge, of which thy ancient father and thy aged mother ate, who were before thee; and who, obtaining knowledge, their eyes being opened, and knowing themselves to be naked, were expelled from the garden.
http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-31/
So we see that some of the Israelites of old time were teaching the same thing that the Calvinists and most of Christianity are still teaching today; and those who taught it then got that teaching from certain statements in the Torah, (for example, Exo 20:5, 34:7, Num 14:18, Deut 5:9). And we know, from the book of Enoch, that they received their understanding of the grape of the vine-tree of the knowledge of good and evil from that same book, (and whether one wishes to consider it canonical or not does not matter because at one time the Yhudim did highly esteem that work before the advent of Messiah). There are likewise some references to this concept in the commonly accepted canonical scriptures where we do read of the "vine-tree" in a few passages, (Num 6:4 KJV, Eze 15:2 KJV ('ets ha-gefen) Eze 15:6 KJV ('ets ha-gefen)). Thus there really is no doubt that the proverb mentioned in both the Jer 31:29-31 New Covenant passage and repeated in Eze 18:1-20 is an ancient proverb which concerns the teaching of original sin, that is, the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity and essentially their foundation, even the "T" in Tulip: and yet the Father says such a teaching is never to be used again, and certainly not anymore in the Jer 31:29-34 New Covenant which is quoted from in Hebrews 8:8-12. Everyone who eats the sour grape, his own teeth shall be set on edge; for every one shall die for his own iniquity. Therefore the only way to understand this in the light of the Testimony of Messiah is to take up our own stakes and crosses and die the way he says to die, even as Paul likewise says, to mortify our own members and put to death the deeds of the body. It is a daily dying of which it speaks, as interpreted by Messiah himself, for the Father is Love and is not interested or pleased with physical death and dying. He wants to see sin and evil put to death; and He wants to see His people at least trying to do so in the name of His Son by the Testimony of Yeshua. :Nineveh:
