The Slaying of Reformed Theology (Calvinism)

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

:thumb:

My 'God' is the Universal Infinite One - out from this 'One' comes all, and in this 'One' inheres all.


I don't subscribe to a jealous 'God' in any sense that it places Deity within a mere finite conception of 'jealousy' as far as man imagines, so such is merely 'figurative' highlighting the personal sense of possession in the relationship between the lover and beloved.

The "Jealousy" of God that is cited in scripture is Fully misunderstood by the majority of Christendom. According to 1 Corinthians 13:4-6 and 1 Jn. 4:8... the "Jealousy" of God is actually a protective Jealously of a Loving God that desires us to succeed and not a Controlling Jealousy that beats a woman out of anger.

The central study of the contextual use of the word in various translations and Manuscripts supports this.

In short... scripture agrees with you and vice versa.

 

[God's Truth]

The "Jealousy" of God that is cited in scripture is Fully misunderstood by the majority of Christendom. According to 1 Corinthians 13:4-6 and 1 Jn. 4:8... the "Jealousy" of God is actually a protective Jealously of a Loving God that desires us to succeed and not a Controlling Jealousy that beats a woman out of anger.

The central study of the contextual use of the word in various translations and Manuscripts supports this.

In short... scripture agrees with you and vice versa.

The scripture about God being a jealous God is about our not going to other sources.

 

[freelight]

One Supreme Deity................

One Supreme Deity................

The scripture about God being a jealous God is about our not going to other sources.

No other source exists.

~*~*~

One Ocean; many rivers.

One eternal substance; many forms.

 

[God's Truth]

No other source exists.

~*~*~

One Ocean; many rivers.

One eternal substance; many forms.

Where are you getting your information from?

You get them from other gods and other gospels, correct?

 

[freelight]

Where are you getting your information from?

You get them from other gods and other gospels, correct?

What is shared shall be evaluated for its own meaning and value, by its own terms and defintions within any given context

 

[nikolai_42]

Nikolai,_42

Your removing the natural thrust of this scripture... to fit the lens of reform. Consider this massively supported analogy from scripture. Jews and Gentiles will make this clear. When the Jews were "Elect"... they spoke exactly as you just did.

I heartily disagree.

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
*The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
*I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
*And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
*I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:10-14

That scenario right there is a picture of "men's persons". The Pharisee and the Publican. One reviled, the other admired. The one who is admired by men (the Pharisee) is looked up to because of his position. He not only touts who HE is, but brings it before God as a token of his acceptability. He leaves God no option but to either accept or reject him on his merits...his status...who he is. By a similar token, the Publican knows who he is - he knows he has nothing to recommend him to God. But since God is no respecter of persons - is impartial - He receives the one who approaches him properly. The one who acknowledges his state before God.

You might say that the Reformed concept of election is buried in this passage simply because of the phrase "I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are". But if that were the case, this man's election would be of partiality simply BECAUSE he exalts himself - his person and accomplishments (regardless of whether or not God made him that way). The impartiality of God goes to the way He receives men - not that He is bound to choose all men out of some human idea of fairness or justice (this is said assuming the Reformed idea of election in some way).

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:37

No one goes away from God because the Father refuses to accept him. Rather, it is because the man is not drawn.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
*There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:10-11

And lest one use that in a limited sense (i.e. just the Jews or a specific group of the Jews as the object of an OT prophecy)...Paul goes on to explain the reasoning behind that quote :

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:19

So it isn't that God has chosen some and rejected others out of some arbitrariness, but none would come to Him unless He brought them. Naturally, NONE would turn to Him. Jesus even tells the Pharisees bluntly that He is upbraiding them for their own good - that they might be saved - but in the next breath tells them He knows they won't come to Him.

*Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
*But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
John 5:33-34

*And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
*And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
*Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
*And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:37-40

Two verses later, He tells them they don't have the love of God in them either.

So there is no innate ability to turn to God properly. There is no innate love of God. No innate word. It must be put in the heart by God. They must be taught of God and be given a new heart.

So the election of the Jews tending to pride was only a picture of the unregenerate man. Anyone who approaches God on the basis of who he is (regardless of whether he says he is naturally that way or not) is not properly grasping God's election. Remember what Paul says in Romans 11 concerning an election according to grace - not works. God told Elijah He had reserved to Himself 7,000 who hadn't bowed the knee to Ba'al. An election according to grace. If it were of works, then there would have been reason for those 7,000 to boast in their faithfulness.

But when Jesus came the first time... He began to reveal that the "Elect" were far more than just the "Elect". Paul finalized this at Christ's post ascension instruction.

Now the "gentiles" think they are the "Elect" and Jesus is to return. God's Love is boundless! No boundaries. Be weary before you surround yourself with all OP points.

Specifically who the elect are doesn't change the nature of election. Those He foreknew, He predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. Not Jew OR Gentile, but one new man. There is to be one fold and one shepherd (not two) - see John 10:16. They are all His sheep. There is no distinction. There is no partiality. But that does not negate the fact that there are goats.

Also... Acts 10:34 and Romans 2:11 back up the scripture you have attempted to "adjust" with Reformed logic.

God's impartiality in Acts 10:34 expresses the fact that God's salvation is not limited to the Jews. He has men in EVERY nation. God indeed loved the world - but shall we say that if it is in His power to save every last human that He is being partial if He doesn't? That seems to be the logical outcome of your stance.

God loved Jacob (a manipulator) and hated Esau even before they were born - before they had the chance to do right or wrong. And why? So God's purpose in election could stand. If God was really impartial in the way you assert, why wouldn't He give equal blessing to all Abraham's seed? Why only to the seed of promise? It wasn't Ishmael's fault he was born into the situation he was...

Read OP points 5 and 6 and see where you are headed. And consider John and the epistles of John as my staunch back up. All of 1 Corinthians 13 will bring a swift end to any argument that God is limited in Love or bound to a group. All of James 2, paralleled with several of Christ's parables will force you to reconsider your stance, or at least show your Mis-assertion of Reformed misinformation.

You may be disappointed with my response, but as I read passages such as Isaiah 6 and Revelation chapters 4 and 5, I am struck by the fact that the nature of God is expressed in the repeated term "Holy". The whole focus is God and what He has done. And it isn't with the attitude of "You saved me...thank you!" but with a sense of awe and reverence and total and utter focus on what God has done. Even while declaring that He has redeemed men out of every nation, the cry is Holy! and Worthy!. It's as though something has been revealed to them that is unutterable and nearly incomprehensible that extends so far beyond "me" that "I" am inconsequential in the whole matter. The importance is the work of God - not that He saved ME.

Yes. John says that God is love. But even as you declare the patience and longsuffering nature of love, we find John speaking of those who sin irremediably. This shows that God has set bounds. He sees what is in men's hearts and knows what will ultimately be done to His glory. The purpose is not our individual salvation, but something far greater :

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
Psalm 76:10

And maybe importantly, the verses prior speak of God's judgment (primarily of the Egyptians, but the type applies more broadly I think). The psalmist says that God is to be feared. Who may stand in His sight once He is angry (v. 7)? Where is this everlasting love? You see, God has to be partial in the sense that He isn't showing love in precisely the same way to every individual. Much the way a man doesn't show the same kind (or same degree) of love to a stranger as he does his wife. Or to an intruder who comes in to destroy his family. How can God be a jealous God and loving and "fair" in the way you have proposed? Why wouldn't Joshua tell Israel that God is loving and kind and just waiting for them to come to Him? Instead, he tells them this :

And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

Unless God has changed, that is still true. And the thing Joshua saw in Israel is still true of the rebel today.

Also... you referenced Eschatology and I have given you scripture on the matter. You must either hold to Reformed Eschatology and discount literal scripture, or acknowledge that Reformed, systematic theology is incapable of defining scripture. That chunk awaits your return dialogue.

 

[God's Truth]

What is shared shall be evaluated for its own meaning and value, by its own terms and defintions within any given context

Why won't you answer?

 

[nikolai_42]

I agree, and such was included in my understanding. Elsewhere I agree that 'salvation is of God', and nothing is obtained apart from grace, but we may explain 'grace' differently. I've treated 'preterition' elsewhere, and how it violates the very character and ethic of love, and shows God's 'choosing' as wholly arbritrary, making 'God' like the Wizard of Oz, or some cosmic slot machine. Calvinism does not hold to the reality of the Father's infinite LOVE for his offspring, since He wholly abandons them, DEPRIVING a portion of souls of his saving grace, when he COULD offer it to them. This is a travesty of so called love. - and as I shared,...defending such deviltry by saying "god can do as he pleases, after all, hes god!" adds to the insanity.

Paul tells the Romans something to the effect of "Who do you think you are to question God?" when talking of God's choosing Jacob over Esau and using Pharaoh to show His power. The testimony of scripture is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and only those who are changed will find themselves wanting to please God (God who actually is, not the God man makes in his own image). In effect, those who perish do so shaking their fist at God all the way to their judgment. To dictate to God something like "If you don't save everyone, I don't want to be saved because that makes you unjust" is not only logically silly, but judging the Almighty (who has all knowledge and Created everything) according to finite, fallen man's reasoning. God knows who we are and how we appear in the light of eternity. If the only way to be reconciled to God is to submit to all His judgments and recognize one's own sinfulness, fallenness and outright enmity against the One who gave life (which life was only of Him and not of us), then anyone who goes there will find themselves justified before that God. We come into this world being required to deal with what "is" whether we agree with it or not. Not being God, we aren't required to know why or how He chooses, but we are required to obey Him. And until we realize just how incapable we are of doing that (much less desire to do that), we are just playing...actors...hypocrites. We need to know exactly what He requires and where we stand in relation to Him and His command.

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
*Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
*For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
*For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
*For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
*So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isaiah 55:6-11

God's lovingkindness and forgiveness are as comprehensive and extensive as his judgments and wrath are unbearable.

 

[freelight]

Why won't you answer?

I did. Its just not the kind of 'answer' you think is according to 'God's Truth'

 

[God's Truth]

I did. Its just not the kind of 'answer' you think is according to 'God's Truth'

You didn't answer and you know you did not.

 

[freelight]

For Heaven's Sake..............

For Heaven's Sake..............

You didn't answer and you know you did not.

Remember the thread subject dear,...not going to fall for 'contesting' over something that I do not need to explain further (beyond philosophical elaboration or exploring the metaphysical realities within the topic at hand), since my commentary speaks for itself regarding the subject and the pertinent points related thereto.

I did answer your question regarding there being One Universal Infinite SOURCE, that we call 'God' (or give this Deity any name or appellation that best suits your own proclivities or convenience). If One Universal Source exists,...then it Alone is the Sole Original Source of any and all things and beings in the cosmos. There is nothing that can exist outside of this Infinite One, therefore everything is derived in some form or fasion, either by positive or negative attribution...from this Great Central Source (Light/Darkness; Good/Evil; Positive/Negative; Male/Female; etc.)

It is also understood and well known by any who know me all these years on TOL, and by common openly shared knowledge, in my sharings, profile bio, writings, that I'm 'eclectic', a universalist in the purest sense of the word, a spiritualist, student of comparative religions, soul pioneer, metaphysician, artist, visionary, philosopher and so on. I get to create and redefine myself as the spirit wills...the same path of all sentient beings.

Let one's own art express and reveal the artist,...let one's words define and characterize the writer. There is no need to postulate, presume or super-impose anything beyond the material presented. Evaluate the logos of the person sharing, the language he uses, the meanings and values expressed thereby. Truth is what IS. - what actually exists in actuality, and in potentiality....here, NOW. It is beyond words,...it is living, it is the essence of pure awareness itself. Light. 'God' is Light (energy-spirit-consciousness, pure Radiance, No-Thing). Again, we can slap on any word, label, name or appellation to Deity we choose to, per our own preference or tradition, as well as holding this Deity in its impersonal sense or in any number of 'personifications'. This is how religious formats operate, and naturally so, since our own religious tradition or schools of choice, use their own terms and nomenclature. Nothing new under the sun

I could go on, per my 'forte',...but let me touch on another question asked earlier. Of course I consult all or any religious texts that I find interesting (biblical and non-biblical, canonical or non-canonical...these being human denominations anyways), having some significant or peculiar meaning and value. The INFINITE is Not and Cannot be limited to 66 books, chosen by just one religious TRADITION at that. To believe so is your own limitation and constraint put upon 'God', who is in essence uncontainable. Its well known to any who know me, that my theology is all-inclusive, holistic and synergestic. Truth is Universal, as universal as its very Heart-source (the One Supreme Deity), as there is no other Reality, from which all derived realities spring from. The Universal Father is the First Source and Center. This same 'God' is also 'Mother'. 'God' is One. - a manifold One. - all else are but rays from this One SUN. Again, we could go on figuratively speaking, and on and on.

View attachment 25245

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I heartily disagree.

...@Evil.Eye.<(I)> edited in spoiler format to reduce quoted format size...

Spoiler

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
*The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
*I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
*And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
*I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:10-14

That scenario right there is a picture of "men's persons". The Pharisee and the Publican. One reviled, the other admired. The one who is admired by men (the Pharisee) is looked up to because of his position. He not only touts who HE is, but brings it before God as a token of his acceptability. He leaves God no option but to either accept or reject him on his merits...his status...who he is. By a similar token, the Publican knows who he is - he knows he has nothing to recommend him to God. But since God is no respecter of persons - is impartial - He receives the one who approaches him properly. The one who acknowledges his state before God.

You might say that the Reformed concept of election is buried in this passage simply because of the phrase "I thank Thee, that I am not as other men are". But if that were the case, this man's election would be of partiality simply BECAUSE he exalts himself - his person and accomplishments (regardless of whether or not God made him that way). The impartiality of God goes to the way He receives men - not that He is bound to choose all men out of some human idea of fairness or justice (this is said assuming the Reformed idea of election in some way).

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:37

No one goes away from God because the Father refuses to accept him. Rather, it is because the man is not drawn.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
*There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:10-11

And lest one use that in a limited sense (i.e. just the Jews or a specific group of the Jews as the object of an OT prophecy)...Paul goes on to explain the reasoning behind that quote :

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:19

So it isn't that God has chosen some and rejected others out of some arbitrariness, but none would come to Him unless He brought them. Naturally, NONE would turn to Him. Jesus even tells the Pharisees bluntly that He is upbraiding them for their own good - that they might be saved - but in the next breath tells them He knows they won't come to Him.

*Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
*But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
John 5:33-34

*And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
*And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
*Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
*And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:37-40

Two verses later, He tells them they don't have the love of God in them either.

So there is no innate ability to turn to God properly. There is no innate love of God. No innate word. It must be put in the heart by God. They must be taught of God and be given a new heart.

So the election of the Jews tending to pride was only a picture of the unregenerate man. Anyone who approaches God on the basis of who he is (regardless of whether he says he is naturally that way or not) is not properly grasping God's election. Remember what Paul says in Romans 11 concerning an election according to grace - not works. God told Elijah He had reserved to Himself 7,000 who hadn't bowed the knee to Ba'al. An election according to grace. If it were of works, then there would have been reason for those 7,000 to boast in their faithfulness.



Specifically who the elect are doesn't change the nature of election. Those He foreknew, He predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. Not Jew OR Gentile, but one new man. There is to be one fold and one shepherd (not two) - see John 10:16. They are all His sheep. There is no distinction. There is no partiality. But that does not negate the fact that there are goats.



God's impartiality in Acts 10:34 expresses the fact that God's salvation is not limited to the Jews. He has men in EVERY nation. God indeed loved the world - but shall we say that if it is in His power to save every last human that He is being partial if He doesn't? That seems to be the logical outcome of your stance.

God loved Jacob (a manipulator) and hated Esau even before they were born - before they had the chance to do right or wrong. And why? So God's purpose in election could stand. If God was really impartial in the way you assert, why wouldn't He give equal blessing to all Abraham's seed? Why only to the seed of promise? It wasn't Ishmael's fault he was born into the situation he was...



You may be disappointed with my response, but as I read passages such as Isaiah 6 and Revelation chapters 4 and 5, I am struck by the fact that the nature of God is expressed in the repeated term "Holy". The whole focus is God and what He has done. And it isn't with the attitude of "You saved me...thank you!" but with a sense of awe and reverence and total and utter focus on what God has done. Even while declaring that He has redeemed men out of every nation, the cry is Holy! and Worthy!. It's as though something has been revealed to them that is unutterable and nearly incomprehensible that extends so far beyond "me" that "I" am inconsequential in the whole matter. The importance is the work of God - not that He saved ME.

Yes. John says that God is love. But even as you declare the patience and longsuffering nature of love, we find John speaking of those who sin irremediably. This shows that God has set bounds. He sees what is in men's hearts and knows what will ultimately be done to His glory. The purpose is not our individual salvation, but something far greater :

Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.
Psalm 76:10

And maybe importantly, the verses prior speak of God's judgment (primarily of the Egyptians, but the type applies more broadly I think). The psalmist says that God is to be feared. Who may stand in His sight once He is angry (v. 7)? Where is this everlasting love? You see, God has to be partial in the sense that He isn't showing love in precisely the same way to every individual. Much the way a man doesn't show the same kind (or same degree) of love to a stranger as he does his wife. Or to an intruder who comes in to destroy his family. How can God be a jealous God and loving and "fair" in the way you have proposed? Why wouldn't Joshua tell Israel that God is loving and kind and just waiting for them to come to Him? Instead, he tells them this :

And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the Lord: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. Joshua 24:19

Unless God has changed, that is still true. And the thing Joshua saw in Israel is still true of the rebel today.

I Love your post, but disagree with most of it. I fully understand your thrust. I note 4 major points that are identified.

Editing in before rebuttal... you seem to have inner monologue that aids you in distinguishing between manmade doctrines and Spiritual fact. I pray you never lose this. Your citing of the Pharisee and the Publican was deeply appreciated. That is one of my favorite parables in red letter. I will reveal that the red letters are the lens I use to discern scripture in tandem with the core verses this OP cites. Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) included.

1) You claim that God didn't die for all men, but select men within nations.
2) You believe that sin to the point of obtaining the "second death" is part of carnal action. This ties into your doctrine of Reprobation. But 1 verse counters this... Ephesians 4:30 ... if I further bolster this with John 1:29 which uses the actual word (Kosmou) and then identify the "sin of the kosmou" with John 16:9-11, your first two claims are shattered. The simple addition of John 3:16 and (Kosmos) reinforces my assertion and leaves you to challenge all manuscripts.
3) You take the sheep and goats as justification for "LA". Unfortunately Matthew 25:31-46 ... when read closely destroys your claim by contextually linking itself to 1 John 4 and James 2.

I will add a spoiler from a post I just made in ECT to back this assertion up.

Spoiler

I Love This! I'll respond more tomorrow!

Look forward to it.

This is one of the most wonderful passages of scripture!

Paul was known to be a traveling "tent maker". A beautiful point about this matter is that the desert "Tabernacle" was a tent. It was collapsed and moved "throughout" the journey's of post Exodus Israel.

I buried a verse by verse contextual and cross referenced work up to (2 Cor. 5:16) in the following spoiler format. I created it to gather the sharpest articulation of what 2 Cor. 5:16 means to me, possible for me.

Spoiler

The first four verses (2 Cor. 5:1-4) build on an allegory or analogy of our "Fleshly" bodies being like temporary, Earthly tents that cause us to cry out in desire for our "heavenly" tents.

The following four verses (2 Cor. 5:4-8) emphasize that the "Spirit of Messiah" (Rm. 8:9) that indwells our "groaning" tents is a sort of "guaranty" or "Promise" that we will inherit those "heavenly" "tents" as surely as Christ displayed His before the ascension we "watch" in the first chapter of Acts.

The next three verses (2 Cor. 5:9-11) can be absolute crack-cocaine to the works based group... because it speaks of the "judgment seat" of Christ and "evaluation" of "good" or "bad" works. Yet, Paul has already eluded to death that is "symbolized" by baptism. We "die" and the "work" of Jesus "stands" in our place. In this allegory... analogy... we see that the Spirit of Christ dwells in us and the "flesh" of Christ surrounds us like a "Wedding Garment". The catch is that per Verses (2 Cor. 1-4) we see that in the eyes of carnal wisdom, we are still trapped in these "groaning" tents.

The. ... "alive but dead"... "dead but alive" verbiage really begins to... wait for it...

flesh out now... #pun

The next verses that lead up to the "excellent talking point" really deserve individual attention.

(2 Cor. 5:12) directly addresses the idea that this scriptural passage is an answer to those who "boast" in... appearance (flesh)... (their temporary... groaning tent)... and not heart (Christ Eph. 3:17... which results in John 14 - 16 & 1 John)

(2 Cor. 5:13) colorfully insinuates that we sound "MAD" (or crazy) for God, but keep a "sound mind" to have an answer for those who need it for themselves or to answer others.

(2 Cor. 5:14-15) Contains the inspiration for one of the greatest horror movie lines ever spoken... while... back to the point... uses the word "power" (Love) in a way that eludes to (1 Cor. 1:17). We judge no one, because to us... the metaphorically dead in carnal flesh though alive in Christ... view all as dead but alive, because Christ Loves and died for ALL and rose again for ALL.

Now...

Our (temples) of God 1 Cor. 3:16, are perishing. To work on them is absolutely fruitless. To judge other people's (temples) by their (fleshly) righteous or visible presence of (sin) is foolishness. Our (Tents) are temporary and we have the (1 Cor. 15) assurance (Guarantee) of having the sinless type body of Christ (2 Cor. 5:4-5) after death, or upon witnessing the final "Day of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) & (Luke 23:43).

We have biblical revelation of the presence of God (John 1:14) and a hint at what our "heavenly" "temples" will be. (Lk. 24:30-31). But... now... the Spirt of Christ dwells within us (Romans 8:9: John 14:15-31, 15:12), though we do not have the physical presence of YHWH with us as we read about in the Gospels and Acts 1 (Acts 1:1-12). We see to Christ within our hearts and towards the "Hope" of Christ within ALL humanity, while overlooking the state of ALL human flesh.

We are merely beggars (Mt. 18:27), declared royalty(1 John 3:1), by the King of kings (Revelation 19:16), that are blessed to share "The Kings Bread" (Lk. 22:19), that other beggars like ourselves might share in our joy (Mt. 6:19-21)

The greatest part... is that the presence of our King will be with us one day (Revelation 21:22 & Zechariah 14:4)

My counter point to your point 3? I challenge you to read Mt. 25-31-46 and make a special post back on the exact words Jesus uses to "separate" the sheep from the goats. Also, find the link to 1 John 4 and James 2, looking through the lens of my posted "spoiler" to you, for the sake of better understanding my counter argument.

4) You site Joshua as proof that the Jews are rejected. Interesting... Do you know the importance of the name Joshua and "WHO" carries that actual name again when their scriptural name is de-transliterated?

I now challenge you to personally Exegete Romans 11:15-36 and add commentary on each verse to show your work... I assert that your assertion is fully busted by its content and if you try to shoehorn Reformed Anti-Semitism into it... I will be able to go back and with a few quotes in red, show you where the Reformed lens is causing you, [MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION] , a man that thirsts for only pure water, to twist scripture by the deception of Reformed teachings you have imbibed in.

I will add the "Chunk" you haven't addressed yet, in "Spoiler" format to save you the effort of searching for it.

Edit to come in the form of spoiler format.

Spoiler

John 16:12 “I still have many things to tell you, but you can’t bear them now.

Luke 21:20 “However, when you see Yerushalayim surrounded by armies, then you are to understand that she is about to be destroyed.

Luke 21:21-23 Those in Y’hudah must escape to the hills, those inside the city must get out, and those in the country must not enter it. For these are the days of vengeance, when everything that has been written in the Tanakh will come true. What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress in the Land and judgment on the people.

Luke 21:4 Some will fall by the edge of the sword, others will be carried into all the countries of the Goyim, and Yerushalayim will be trampled down by the Goyim until the age of the Goyim has run its course. Romans 11:24-27 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, ! For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved. As the Tanakh says, “Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer; he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov and this will be my covenant with them, . . . when I take away their sins.”

Luke 21:27-28 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with tremendous power and glory. When these things start to happen, stand up and hold your heads high; because you are about to be liberated!”

Acts 1:10-12 As they were staring into the sky after him, suddenly they saw two men dressed in white standing next to them. The men said, “You Galileans! Why are you standing, staring into space? This Yeshua, who has been taken away from you into heaven, will come back to you in just the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” Then they returned the Shabbat-walk distance from the Mount of Olives to Yerushalayim.

Zechariah 14:2-5 “For I will gather all the nations against Yerushalayim for war. The city will be taken, the houses will be rifled, the women will be raped, and half the city will go into exile; but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.” Then Adonai will go out and fight against those nations, fighting as on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies to the east of Yerushalayim; and the Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, to make a huge valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. You will flee to the valley in the mountains, for the valley in the mountains will reach to Atzel. You will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of ‘Uziyah king of Y’hudah. Then Adonai my God will come to you with all the holy ones.

Joel 4:9-12 “Proclaim this among the nations: ‘Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men approach and attack.’ Hammer your plow-blades into swords and your pruning-knives into spears. Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’ Hurry, come, you surrounding nations, gather yourselves together!” Bring your warriors down, Adonai! “Let the nations be roused and come up to the Valley of Y’hoshafat Adonai judges. For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.”

Joel 4:1-2,3 “For then, at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Y’hoshafat Adonai judges. I will enter into judgment there for my people, my heritage Isra’el, whom they scattered among the nations; then they divided my land. 2:32 At that time, whoever calls on the name of Adonai will be saved. For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim there will be those who escape, as Adonai has promised; among the survivors will be those whom Adonai has called.

Revelation 20:11-15 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done. The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire.

Joel 2:1-3 Joel 4:9-12 “Blow the shofar in Tziyon! Sound an alarm on my holy mountain!” Let all living in the land tremble, for the Day of Adonai is coming! It’s upon us! — a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick fog; a great and mighty horde is spreading like blackness over the mountains. There has never been anything like it, nor will there ever be again, not even after the years of many generations. Ahead of them a fire devours, behind them a flame consumes; ahead the land is like Gan-‘Eden, behind them a desert waste. From them there is no escape. “Proclaim this among the nations: ‘Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men approach and attack.’ Hammer your plow-blades into swords and your pruning-knives into spears. Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’ Hurry, come, you surrounding nations, gather yourselves together!” Bring your warriors down, Adonai! “Let the nations be roused and come up to the Valley of Y’hoshafat Adonai judges. For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.”

Revelation 21:3-4, 22-23 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “See! God’s Sh’khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away.” I saw no Temple in the city, for Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb. The city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God’s Sh’khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Joel 3:5 Joel 2:27 2:32 At that time, whoever calls on the name of Adonai will be saved. For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim there will be those who escape, as Adonai has promised; among the survivors will be those whom Adonai has called. You will know that I am with Isra’el and that I am Adonai your God, and that there is no other. Then my people will never again be shamed.

I ask you this because it exalts one thing... Scriptural continuity. You either believe it, or you desire to shoe horn your favorite human prophets' spin into it.

This is my reply and challenge to you.

I'm editing in a reply to Crucible that I posted yesterday... within spoiler format. It addresses your mention of one vs. two bodies.

Please excuse its direct verbiage, but I am fairly intolerant of people who claim heavy contribution, but have no scholarly words to back their assertions. You clearly notice a difference in my mode of communication with you that is in direct response to your Scholarly defense and cordial demeanor. As this post was towards Crucible... my demeanor was gruff and stern.

Spoiler

(A reply to Crucible) The issue with Calvinism... one of many... is that it understands the fulfillment of the Law of Moses and gathers the separation of the covenants... but it misses the bigger picture. A Covenant is a promise. The big two are not the only "covenants" of God. And further more... the spiritual realm has been conquered by Christ, but the Physical realm remains unconquered.

Jesus did this so we may be born and be saved through belief. We obtain instant salvation upon belief and a sense of "election" "through" Jesus. He is the Elect fulfillment of the covenant of Moses. But... he has not closed the Physical rebellion yet... thus Moses and Jesus remain.

Jesus emphasized this when He stated that the unmerciful will be judged by Moses. His promises to Israel are still valid. You don't "replace" Israel... you are counted a small "part" of it by GRACE. Jesus, King of the Jews, saves us through His obedience. In this sense... the New Covenant is an extension of the old covenant. If you "COMPLETELY" denounce the Promise to Israel... you actually invalidate Christ's work.

You would have to actually be Christ to Be Israel! But, you are not actually Israel! You are "In" Christ. He... Israels fulfillment... is our head. In Him is Israel and the Body of Christ. But, we are the Gentile, Body of Christ! Israel is still ISRAEL!

The Earthly hasn't passed away yet!

You denounce the pre-ascention dialogue that begins in Acts 1:6

Note Jesus' answer... he binds his return to Israel!

If you don't actually address my points here... I will begin to lump you in with [MENTION=3267]GodsTruth[/MENTION], who is a current waste of time, due to her unscriptural twisting of the gospel.

You discount [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] so rapidly! He is merely quoting scripture till he is blue in the face and the scripturally blind are simply arguing back without listening!

The bottom line... you think you are saved by election, when you are only saved by faith. You blaspheme this faith by ignoring Rm. 11:20-36 ! You are literally being Arrogant towards Earthly Israel and deeming it more carnal than yourself, while you claim to be "Spiritual" Israel. You are essentially setting up a date with Moses!

Incidentally... you throw the word "cuck" around, when this means the husband of an unfaithful woman. Our Lord Jesus has two brides that are to be unified into one, at the close of the Physical age. One of them is Israel and she was unfaithful to Him, but then again... so is the BOC! There are false alters of men within the BOC that make us filthier than Israel! We are reliant on Jesus alone. You pray at one of those false alters and dare to point at your sister Bride/Widow. Are you mocking our Lord and God Jesus Christ now?

I cite Hosea in entirety as my support for these words.

 

[God's Truth]

Remember the thread subject dear,...

I will read all that you wrote later. All you had to do is say, for instance, "Buddha, Gandhi, Muhammad, Hindu gods, etc."

 

[God's Truth]

Remember the thread subject dear,...not going to fall for 'contesting' over something that I do not need to explain further (beyond philosophical elaboration or exploring the metaphysical realities within the topic at hand), since my commentary speaks for itself regarding the subject and the pertinent points related thereto.

I did answer your question regarding there being One Universal Infinite SOURCE, that we call 'God' (or give this Deity any name or appellation that best suits your own proclivities or convenience). If One Universal Source exists,...then it Alone is the Sole Original Source of any and all things and beings in the cosmos. There is nothing that can exist outside of this Infinite One, therefore everything is derived in some form or fasion, either by positive or negative attribution...from this Great Central Source (Light/Darkness; Good/Evil; Positive/Negative; Male/Female; etc.)

It is also understood and well known by any who know me all these years on TOL, and by common openly shared knowledge, in my sharings, profile bio, writings, that I'm 'eclectic', a universalist in the purest sense of the word, a spiritualist, student of comparative religions, soul pioneer, metaphysician, artist, visionary, philosopher and so on. I get to create and redefine myself as the spirit wills...the same path of all sentient beings.

Let one's own art express and reveal the artist,...let one's words define and characterize the writer. There is no need to postulate, presume or super-impose anything beyond the material presented. Evaluate the logos of the person sharing, the language he uses, the meanings and values expressed thereby. Truth is what IS. - what actually exists in actuality, and in potentiality....here, NOW. It is beyond words,...it is living, it is the essence of pure awareness itself. Light. 'God' is Light (energy-spirit-consciousness, pure Radiance, No-Thing). Again, we can slap on any word, label, name or appellation to Deity we choose to, per our own preference or tradition, as well as holding this Deity in its impersonal sense or in any number of 'personifications'. This is how religious formats operate, and naturally so, since our own religious tradition or schools of choice, use their own terms and nomenclature. Nothing new under the sun

I could go on, per my 'forte',...but let me touch on another question asked earlier. Of course I consult all or any religious texts that I find interesting (biblical and non-biblical, canonical or non-canonical...these being human denominations anyways), having some significant or peculiar meaning and value. The INFINITE is Not and Cannot be limited to 66 books, chosen by just one religious TRADITION at that. To believe so is your own limitation and constraint put upon 'God', who is in essence uncontainable. Its well known to any who know me, that my theology is all-inclusive, holistic and synergestic. Truth is Universal, as universal as its very Heart-source (the One Supreme Deity), as there is no other Reality, from which all derived realities spring from. The Universal Father is the First Source and Center. This same 'God' is also 'Mother'. 'God' is One. - a manifold One. - all else are but rays from this One SUN. Again, we could go on figuratively speaking, and on and on.

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Okay, I read it. So what I gather from you is that you pick apart all religion's works and throw out the rest to make your own, which is really no real religion.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Okay, I read it. So what I gather from you is that you pick apart all religion's works and throw out the rest to make your own, which is really no real religion.

Oh... so you noticed... [MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] has no "Religion".

Just utter, absolute FAITH.

; )

 

[God's Truth]

Oh... so you noticed... [MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] has no "Religion".

Just utter, absolute FAITH.

; )

Faith from the one and only message is what saves; not faith in all kinds of teachings minus what you want to throw out.

 

[reformedmonk]

Looks like you are going after Hyper-Calvinism not reformed thought.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Looks like you are going after Hyper-Calvinism not reformed thought.

No

Point one is there to rapidly discard hyper Calvinists. But, the other 5 are there to discard all of Calvin's ideas.

Are you stepping up to bat? Shall I pitch?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

!!!Tally Update!!!

[MENTION=5671]nikolai_42[/MENTION] has much to evaluate and consider

[MENTION=19559]reformedmonk[/MENTION] has stepped up to the 6 swords and is possibly coming to test his theological metal.

[MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] is contributing excellent points of evaluation.
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] is still my friend... and I proudly call him my Brother "In" Christ.

# This concludes today's Tally Update.

 

[freelight]

Re-sourcing within the One Source......

Re-sourcing within the One Source......

I will read all that you wrote later. All you had to do is say, for instance, "Buddha, Gandhi, Muhammad, Hindu gods, etc."

Yes,...I could have listed the many different 're-sources' that spring from within the ONE ORIGINAL SOURCE, that I can at any time access and share (inter-correlate) if I was reminded of such. Deity is ONE, - its creative offspring are many. 'God' is the Great Central SUN, - all images reflect back to their source in that primordial light. The different expressions/manifestions of his Creative Word(wisdom) are the different religious traditions or dispensations that he has brought into being in those various cultures. The Universal Father is ever the First Source and Center of all reality. There is the primal Generator, and its generations.

The same original germ of life, the very seed of God-consciousness abides in the soul of man, and different religious traditions and prophets have given it VOICE thru their own language, concepts, personifications, ritual, myth, metaphors, etc. God is Light and mirrors the images that arise and are given from within its Light. - this includes all types and shadows within creation, that exist or come into being thru relativity, space-time interaction, and dimensionality. - this is why Creation or the Totality contains all potentials and possibilities of good and evil, all contrasting dualities. Yet the inherent unifying essence and heart of Deity is ever indivisible, non-dual, singular, one.

A more holistic, esoteric and mystical insight into universal reality and Deity, can be had by a study, synthesis or synergy of both Western and Eastern religious schools, as they represent a dialectic of dual truths, complimenting one another in the divine unity. Like the yin and yang, both east and west paint a paternal face on God, who as Father-Mother impregnates and gives birth to the cosmos.


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