SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The irony...
ECT The "Sending" of Jesus to Israel
- Thread starter Interplanner
- Start date
The irony...
Interplanner
Well-known member
What frickin aspect are you referring to?
You have to live by the same rule as I do here, STP: you have to prove your beliefs. If you can't express them, you have lost. I have to earn followers, so do you. You have to explain exactly what angle you see in Mt 10:23 and what it has to do with. I won't accept an answer that is shorter than say a couple paragraphs, for the simple reason that it depends on if you are talking about Judaism, the mission, the 2nd coming, the warning to that generation, etc.
Otherwise all it means is those missionaries would not reach all of the towns before the disclosure that Christ was the Son of Man was made, and there would be more to do after the mission started. After the gospel event.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The irony...
Interplanner
Well-known member
OK, well you lost too, because you don't know how to address the question of Mt 10:23. It does not 'automatically' mean anything. Deal with it.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
It means that the Great Commission was never intended to be carried out UNTIL THE LORD RETURNS.
Think, Great One, think.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I did. The normal meaning in that setting was they would not finish. The Son of Man was revealed. They did reach all of Israel--after the Gospel event. It is quite clear. 2P2P is muck and fraud.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Paul said twice it was completed.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Once the Lord did not return 'immediately after' the destruction of Jerusalem, Mt 24:19, all schemes are discarded. there are no verses like this that 'snag' or 'define' every other thing.
"The warning in Deuteronomy 18: 19 in the English version of the Masoretic Text is somewhat ambiguous, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." It is a warning, but the consequences of not heeding the words of Christ is not made clear."
Luke's version in Acts 3: 23 is a clear warning of dire consequences for rejecting the words of Christ, "For the time will come that every soul which shall not hear that same Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people." Tyndale NT
The Acts 3: 23 version is not exactly the same as the English translation of the Septuagint, ""And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. "
But the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 18: 19 is closer in meaning to Luke's version in the New Testament. The Septuagint presents a warning of the consequences of not accepting the message of Christ in saying God will take vengeance on those who reject Christ.
Why is the Masoretic version of Deuteronomy 18: 19 not as explicit in revealing the consequence for rejecting Christ and his message?
There are other Old Testament texts in the Masoretic Hebrew which differ substantially from that of the Greek Septuagint.
http://www.bibliahebraica.com/the_te...retic_text.htm
They say of the Hebrew Masoretic Text that "It was primarily compiled, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries CE, though the consonants differ little from the text generally accepted in the early second century. "
So, the Hebrew Masoretic text was created after the time of Christ, while the Septuagint was created before the time of Christ.
Hebrews 10:5 (KJV Quoting Psalm 40:6)
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me...
Psalm 40:6 (KJV Taken from Masortic)
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened...
Psalm 40:6 (Brenton’s English Translation of the Septuagint)
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me...
Psalm 40:6 is regarded by Early Christians as a prophecy of
the Incarnation of Christ, and Hebrews 10:5 quotes it as such, but the
Masoretic Text omits the key phrase entirely, replacing “but a body
hast thou prepared for me” with “mine ears hast thou opened.” Note
that the KJV New Testament and the Greek Septuagint agree with each
other but the Hebrew Masoretic text does not agree with the Septuagint on
the issue of a body being prepared.
Probably the older Hebrew text that the Septuagint was translated from talked
about a body prepared for "that prophet" in Deuteronomy 18: 15-20. Psalm 40: 6
was seen by the early Christians as a prophecy for Christ appearing in the body of a man.
But the Masoretics were a group who sought to restore Judaism - which rejected the
Christian teaching that Christ appeared as a man, and rejected Christ as their Messiah.
Matthew 12:21 (KJV Quoting Isaiah 42:4)
And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Isaiah 42:4 (KJV Taken from Masoretic)
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the
earth: and the isles shall wait for his law
Isaiah 42:4 (Brenton’s English Translation of the Septuagint)
He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set
judgment on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Note that the Masoretic Hebrew says nothing about the Gentiles
trusting in God. There is a thread of prophecy in the Old Testament
predicting that the Gentiles will join the people of God, that is, Israel.
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon
her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not
my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."
Hosea 2: 23
Then Isaiah 60: 2-3, Isaiah 66: 12, Malachi 1: 11 say the Gentiles
will become God's people. The Old testament does not say that the
Gentiles will become a separate group of God's people. Physical Israel
was first to be a light to the Gentiles to bring them to God.
Bringing the Gentiles in to be God's people is just one part of the
Old Testament prophecies on the transformation of Israel.
But the Masoretic movement in trying to restore Judaism and all physical
Israel as the chosen people would reject the teaching that the Gentiles
were to be brought into Israel as equals to the physical descendants of Abraham.
When the Septuagint version of Isaiah 42: 4 is compared to the Masoretic version, which
has nothing on the Gentiles trusting in God, we have to believe that
the wording was changed in the Post-Cross Masoretic Hebrew text.
It looks like the Masoretics changed the wording of Deuteronomy 18: 19 to make it appear that God was not to be severe in his judgment on Israel for rejecting Christ, since the goal of the Masoretics was to restore Talmudic Judaism, which was close to the religion of the Pharisees.
Luke's version in Acts 3: 23 is a clear warning of dire consequences for rejecting the words of Christ, "For the time will come that every soul which shall not hear that same Prophet shall be destroyed from among the people." Tyndale NT
The Acts 3: 23 version is not exactly the same as the English translation of the Septuagint, ""And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. "
But the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 18: 19 is closer in meaning to Luke's version in the New Testament. The Septuagint presents a warning of the consequences of not accepting the message of Christ in saying God will take vengeance on those who reject Christ.
Why is the Masoretic version of Deuteronomy 18: 19 not as explicit in revealing the consequence for rejecting Christ and his message?
There are other Old Testament texts in the Masoretic Hebrew which differ substantially from that of the Greek Septuagint.
http://www.bibliahebraica.com/the_te...retic_text.htm
They say of the Hebrew Masoretic Text that "It was primarily compiled, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the seventh and tenth centuries CE, though the consonants differ little from the text generally accepted in the early second century. "
So, the Hebrew Masoretic text was created after the time of Christ, while the Septuagint was created before the time of Christ.
Hebrews 10:5 (KJV Quoting Psalm 40:6)
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and
offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me...
Psalm 40:6 (KJV Taken from Masortic)
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened...
Psalm 40:6 (Brenton’s English Translation of the Septuagint)
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me...
Psalm 40:6 is regarded by Early Christians as a prophecy of
the Incarnation of Christ, and Hebrews 10:5 quotes it as such, but the
Masoretic Text omits the key phrase entirely, replacing “but a body
hast thou prepared for me” with “mine ears hast thou opened.” Note
that the KJV New Testament and the Greek Septuagint agree with each
other but the Hebrew Masoretic text does not agree with the Septuagint on
the issue of a body being prepared.
Probably the older Hebrew text that the Septuagint was translated from talked
about a body prepared for "that prophet" in Deuteronomy 18: 15-20. Psalm 40: 6
was seen by the early Christians as a prophecy for Christ appearing in the body of a man.
But the Masoretics were a group who sought to restore Judaism - which rejected the
Christian teaching that Christ appeared as a man, and rejected Christ as their Messiah.
Matthew 12:21 (KJV Quoting Isaiah 42:4)
And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Isaiah 42:4 (KJV Taken from Masoretic)
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the
earth: and the isles shall wait for his law
Isaiah 42:4 (Brenton’s English Translation of the Septuagint)
He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set
judgment on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Note that the Masoretic Hebrew says nothing about the Gentiles
trusting in God. There is a thread of prophecy in the Old Testament
predicting that the Gentiles will join the people of God, that is, Israel.
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon
her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not
my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."
Hosea 2: 23
Then Isaiah 60: 2-3, Isaiah 66: 12, Malachi 1: 11 say the Gentiles
will become God's people. The Old testament does not say that the
Gentiles will become a separate group of God's people. Physical Israel
was first to be a light to the Gentiles to bring them to God.
Bringing the Gentiles in to be God's people is just one part of the
Old Testament prophecies on the transformation of Israel.
But the Masoretic movement in trying to restore Judaism and all physical
Israel as the chosen people would reject the teaching that the Gentiles
were to be brought into Israel as equals to the physical descendants of Abraham.
When the Septuagint version of Isaiah 42: 4 is compared to the Masoretic version, which
has nothing on the Gentiles trusting in God, we have to believe that
the wording was changed in the Post-Cross Masoretic Hebrew text.
It looks like the Masoretics changed the wording of Deuteronomy 18: 19 to make it appear that God was not to be severe in his judgment on Israel for rejecting Christ, since the goal of the Masoretics was to restore Talmudic Judaism, which was close to the religion of the Pharisees.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, the restitutation of "all" things must include the restitution of the Davidic kingdom. The same kingdom which we find in prophecy.
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:19-21).
This is what will happen when the Davidic kingdom will be restored according to prophecy:
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth" (Jer.23:5).
When the Lord Jesus returns to the earth the Lord Jesus will then sit upon the throne of David, as witnessed by His own words here:
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).
Why do you not believe what the Lord Jesus said there?
Last edited:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Nope, Paul did not preach the gospel of the kingdom.
It belonged to the 12 and they had no intention of going to the nations until the Son of Man had come (again).
These are the facts.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
To a bookworm :chuckle:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Prophecy:
1. Christ comes
2. Christ rejected by his own
3. DBR, ascension
4. Jerusalem destroyed
5. Israel scattered
6. Israel regathered for tribulation
7. The LORD returns and saves them
Prophecy is silent on what goes down between 5 and 6.
The dispensation of the grace of God, in which we live, was indeed a mystery.
1. Christ comes
2. Christ rejected by his own
3. DBR, ascension
4. Jerusalem destroyed
5. Israel scattered
6. Israel regathered for tribulation
7. The LORD returns and saves them
Prophecy is silent on what goes down between 5 and 6.
The dispensation of the grace of God, in which we live, was indeed a mystery.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The #5 is nonsense; it was in Judea in the first century. Who would want to be regathered for tribulation? The Lord did save his followers out of the hell that Judea had become.
The dispensation was no mystery, nor was grace. It was that the co-inheritance and sharing was through Gospel, not the law. Everyone knew the blessing was for all nations from the start.
I have made one ommission though in dealing with Mt.10:23. He means that they (the 70) would not reach all of Israel BECAUSE OF PERSECUTION. I made it sound like they just ran out of time. That task had to be resumed after the launch of Pentecost.
Prophecy is not a scheme of sequential things. It is the declaration that when the time to let go of the old system comes, Israel must heed that call and warning and do so. That's what makes a prophecy a prophecy. That's why your lists are morally confused and depicted a double-headed God.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I would be interested in any of your attempts to reconcile A: the direct and present offer of Jesus to come (immediately, it seems) with B: the distant transformation of all things.
I believe with that tension in the text, A is offering Jesus in some other form: the mission, the work of Paul 'seeking to form Christ in you (plural)', the body that all unified believers dwell within, etc. 'These days' were ordained to get the blessing to all the nations on earth. Which Paul said twice was accomplished in his generation.
I believe that A shows the depth of the 'course correction' God had in mind for Israel. His effort was not going to be about them; they were going to challenged to work in his mission. Which is how things play out in Acts.
I believe with that tension in the text, A is offering Jesus in some other form: the mission, the work of Paul 'seeking to form Christ in you (plural)', the body that all unified believers dwell within, etc. 'These days' were ordained to get the blessing to all the nations on earth. Which Paul said twice was accomplished in his generation.
I believe that A shows the depth of the 'course correction' God had in mind for Israel. His effort was not going to be about them; they were going to challenged to work in his mission. Which is how things play out in Acts.
The sense always is that the particular preaching was meant to be preached everywhere it was meant to be preached as to all the nations of the Earth and that, in Paul's case; he preached everywhere he had been able to - it is NOT that all the nations on the Earth had been reached, many of which were on the other side of the world, and many others of which did not even exist back then, etc.
:doh:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
What exactly?