The Sabbath is a What?

[Choleric]

And whose laws are the ten commandments?

No matter how hard you try to make an end run around the clear, easy to understand declarations of the NT, we are not, in any sense, under the law of moses. Try as you might, you can't make it true.

Hebrews 6:4-8 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.​

The old favorite of those who are trying to be good enough. If I had a nickle every time someone quoted me that verse I could retire.

question, what is the context of that verse? And have you ever lost your salvation and gotten it back? Do you think any Christian has ever gotten it, lost it and gotten it back?

The end of those who fall away is to be burned.

John 15:6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

The context of this passage was before the Cross. No person on earth was ever Born again at this point and the church was still a mystery. Jesus was getting ready to ascend and he was telling his converts to stay with Him and not to return to Judaism. Notice the end of the verse says "men" will gather them. We know that at the end of the world it is angels that gather, not men. This was an exhortation to remain with Christ, and not return to moses.

Matthew 13:40 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.​

Again, this is before the Cross, and the context is the end of the world. This has nothing to do with getting or staying saved in the church age, which was a mystery at the time.

It is a reference to this:

Deuteronomy 8:5-6 5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the Lord thy God chasteneth thee. 6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.​

I don't need you to repeat it. My question is what is the difference between being chastened as a son and being condemned with the world? The distinction is made, what do you think it is?

 

[genuineoriginal]

No matter how hard you try to make an end run around the clear, easy to understand declarations of the NT, we are not, in any sense, under the law of moses. Try as you might, you can't make it true.

I am not talking about the law of Moses, I am talking about the law of God.

2 Corinthians 3:3 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.​

The law of God was written in tables of stone in the first covenant, and is written in our heart in the new covenant.

We are not under the law of Moses with the Levitical priesthood.
We are under the law of God, the law Paul served.

Romans 7:25 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Though outwardly Paul lived according to the doctrines of the Pharisees (with the flesh the law of sin), inwardly Paul lived in obedience to the commandments of God (with the mind I myself serve the law of God).


If you are not subject to the law of God, then you are opposed to God and living according to the desires of your carnal mind.

Romans 8:7 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

The law of Moses came 400 years after God made a covenant with Abraham.

Galatians 3:17 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.​

Abraham obeyed the law of God 400 years before the law of Moses was given.

Genesis 26:5 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

The faith that drove Abraham to keep God's commandments was counted as righteousness.

Christians are called to have that same faith, and it is through the faith of Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus that Christians will gain the grace of God.

 

[genuineoriginal]

And have you ever lost your salvation and gotten it back? Do you think any Christian has ever gotten it, lost it and gotten it back?

You don't know much about salvation, or you would not have asked that question.

Salvation happens at the day of redemption, before that we only have the promise.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't need you to repeat it. My question is what is the difference between being chastened as a son and being condemned with the world? The distinction is made, what do you think it is?

Like I said, it is a reference to this passage from the first covenant:

Deuteronomy 8:5-6 5 Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the Lord thy God chasteneth thee. 6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.​

But, since you don't understand that reference, look at the other passage that is the consequences for not accepting the correction:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.​

God will bring circumstances upon us to try to get us to repent of our sins and turn back to Him and keep His commandments like obedient sons. This is what He has done with the children of Israel under the first covenant.
If we refuse to obey after that, then we end up condemned with the world, the same as was done under the first covenant.

 

[Choleric]

I am not talking about the law of Moses, I am talking about the law of God.

But it is the law of moses that had the penalty attached to it for disobedience. That is what you are trying to put the Christian back under. Being dead to that law, there is no penalty that leads to a guilty sentence.

2 Corinthians 3:3 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.​

The law of God was written in tables of stone in the first covenant, and is written in our heart in the new covenant.

Correct. And we are also explicitly told that when it comes to the law of moses we should do the following:

Act_15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

We are not under the law of Moses with the Levitical priesthood.
We are under the law of God, the law Paul served.

Romans 7:25 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Paul was talking about lost people in Romans 7. Lost people want to do good, but can't because their flesh is contrary to the law. That is why God killed our body (ye are dead) and one day we will be free of this "body of death" and will get a new body that is not contrary to the spirit. The point Paul was making was that he served the law of God with his mind, meaning he wanted to do good (that which I would do), but he couldn't because there was another law in his members (that which I would do I do not...I see another law in my members). That is before the death and burial and resurrection and the "putting off" of the body of flesh.

Though outwardly Paul lived according to the doctrines of the Pharisees (with the flesh the law of sin), inwardly Paul lived in obedience to the commandments of God (with the mind I myself serve the law of God).

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: We are dead with Christ. Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Christ cannot die again, neither can I Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. We can now live unto God as Christ does. Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. The walk of faith is to reckon ourselves dead because God says we are dead and buried (Romans 6:2,4,7). Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Therefore we can "not let sin reign in our mortal body". It is because I am dead and free from the flesh, that I can obey God in a way I couldn't under the law while in the body of flesh. It is the body of flesh that died with Christ, was buried and I will one day get a new one.

romans 7 is speaking from the perspective of a man still in the flesh that could not obey. He wanted to, he agreed that the law was good, but could not obey it. We can obey it because we are dead. It is the "therefore".

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Paul explains the difference between what it was like when we were in the flesh compared to what it is like now that we are free from it. When we were in the flesh, sin, empowered by the law worked in our members to bring forth death. It is the flesh we are free from being saved.

If you are not subject to the law of God, then you are opposed to God and living according to the desires of your carnal mind.

Romans 8:7 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

Exactly. The flesh is contrary to the law. Being free from the body of flesh we can now live a life more holy than those under the law.

The law of Moses came 400 years after God made a covenant with Abraham.

Galatians 3:17 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.​

Exactly, and Galatians 3 is a treatise that salvation comes by faith, not by works.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Abraham obeyed the law of God 400 years before the law of Moses was given.

Genesis 26:5 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

The faith that drove Abraham to keep God's commandments was counted as righteousness.

nope. You need to stop plucking verses out of context and putting verses together that don't go together. We only have to continue reading in Galatians 3 to see the answer:

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Christians are called to have that same faith, and it is through the faith of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus that Christians will gain the grace of God.

Wrong again. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness through faith. You are trying to earn something God wants to give you as a gift. It is not by works that we earn God's grace because then it would be a debt God owes and would be the opposite of a gift. You need to stop offering God your works. :first:

 

[jeremysdemo]

2 Corinthians 3:3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The law of God was written in tables of stone in the first covenant, and is written in our heart in the new covenant.

Correct. And we are also explicitly told that when it comes to the law of moses we should do the following:

Act_15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Not to nit pick, but technically that would be considered Noahide laws, not law of Moses.

United States Congress

The Seven Laws of Noah were recognized by the United States Congress in the preamble to the 1991 bill that established Education Day in honor of the birthday of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the leader of the Chabad movement:

Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws.[28]

You should learn your bible. Study it, don't just read it.

Good advice for anyone I'm sure, although let it be noted I was the one whom knew where the synopsis of Luke 12:35-40 was found in Matthew, not you, QED.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Choleric]

Not to nit pick, but technically that would be considered Noahide laws, not law of Moses.

keep shinin

jerm

When they came together it was not to consider whether the church should keep the "noahide" laws. It was to discuss the law of Moses:

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

They settled on curtains aspects of the law of Moses for the church to do and it may have been the laws for Noah but the context of the conversation centered around the law of Moses.

 

[jeremysdemo]

When they came together it was not to consider whether the church should keep the "noahide" laws. It was to discuss the law of Moses:

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

They settled on curtains aspects of the law of Moses for the church to do and it may have been the laws for Noah but the context of the conversation centered around the law of Moses.

there was no "may have been", it was the Noahide laws that were given for the Gentiles, which was pre-Moses, even pre Abrahamic covenant, might be relevant.

to omit that and say "this you should do when it comes to the law of moses" can be misleading, the apostles didn't say that when they gave the teaching.

there may have been a reason why when challenged by the Pharisees the Apostles chose to circumvent the Law of Moses entirely and use Noahide law instead, ironically they also support all 10 Commandments in their teachings, including Paul.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Choleric]

there was no "may have been", it was the Noahide laws that were given for the Gentiles,

The point is that they were discussing the laws of Moses. They didn't mention Noah.

which was pre-Moses, even pre Abrahamic covenant, might be relevant.

Noah isn't mentioned and we are repeatedly told we aren't under any law but the law of liberty.

to omit that and say "this you should do when it comes to the law of moses" can be misleading, the apostles didn't say that when they gave the teaching.

It is misleading to introduce an idea that isn't found anywhere in the New Testament. It is keeping in context the FACT they were discussing the law of Moses.

there may have been a reason why when challenged by the Pharisees the Apostles chose to circumvent the Law of Moses entirely and use Noahide law instead,

They didn't choose to circumvent it, Christ did away with it. They were the messengers.

ironically they also support all 10 Commandments in their teachings, including Paul.

keep shinin

jerm

Except the sabbath. Which is for the Jew only.

And it isn't at all ironic that Christians would be expected to live holy lives.

 

[jeremysdemo]

these are not easy facts to contend with, YMMV.

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Choleric]

these are not easy facts to contend with, YMMV.

keep shinin

jerm

Dont be so hard on yourself. It will come easier to you as you learn to submit yourself to scripture instead of the other way around.

You will go from "ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" to a bible believer.

Believe what you read and stop over complicating things with your imagination.

Keep at it jerm :thumb:

 

[jeremysdemo]

I have no problem dealing with the facts C,

I don't need to say Matthew or a chapter and verse number to know "Oh Ye of little faith" is from Matthew, and from Jesus.

Neither did the disciples when using Noahide law, they were well familiar where it came from.

here's a *hint*...it wasn't Moses, nor was it Abraham. it was in fact pre-Abrahamic covenant.

you can go on with your doctrine about the law of Moses now, join the Pharisees and their discussion about it Acts 15:5....

let the readers look at all the biblical facts and make their own decisions, I gather many of them have their thinking caps on today :wave2:

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Choleric]

You don't know much about salvation, or you would not have asked that question.

Salvation happens at the day of redemption, before that we only have the promise.

There you go calling God a liar again. How many verses in the bible speak of salvation in past tense?

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, -2 Timothy 1:9

That is one of almost a hundred. You need to rethink your theology.

 

[Choleric]

I am not talking about the law of Moses, I am talking about the law of God.

But it is the law of moses that had the penalty attached to it for disobedience. That is what you are trying to put the Christian back under. Being dead to that law, there is no penalty that leads to a guilty sentence.

2 Corinthians 3:3 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.​

The law of God was written in tables of stone in the first covenant, and is written in our heart in the new covenant.

Correct. And we are also explicitly told that when it comes to the law of moses we should do the following:

Act_15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

We are not under the law of Moses with the Levitical priesthood.
We are under the law of God, the law Paul served.

Romans 7:25 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Paul was talking about lost people in Romans 7. Lost people want to do good, but can't because their flesh is contrary to the law. That is why God killed our body (ye are dead) and one day we will be free of this "body of death" and will get a new body that is not contrary to the spirit. The point Paul was making was that he served the law of God with his mind, meaning he wanted to do good (that which I would do), but he couldn't because there was another law in his members (that which I would do I do not...I see another law in my members). That is before the death and burial and resurrection and the "putting off" of the body of flesh.

Though outwardly Paul lived according to the doctrines of the Pharisees (with the flesh the law of sin), inwardly Paul lived in obedience to the commandments of God (with the mind I myself serve the law of God).

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: We are dead with Christ. Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Christ cannot die again, neither can I Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. We can now live unto God as Christ does. Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. The walk of faith is to reckon ourselves dead because God says we are dead and buried (Romans 6:2,4,7). Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Therefore we can "not let sin reign in our mortal body". It is because I am dead and free from the flesh, that I can obey God in a way I couldn't under the law while in the body of flesh. It is the body of flesh that died with Christ, was buried and I will one day get a new one.

romans 7 is speaking from the perspective of a man still in the flesh that could not obey. He wanted to, he agreed that the law was good, but could not obey it. We can obey it because we are dead. It is the "therefore".

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Paul explains the difference between what it was like when we were in the flesh compared to what it is like now that we are free from it. When we were in the flesh, sin, empowered by the law worked in our members to bring forth death. It is the flesh we are free from being saved.

If you are not subject to the law of God, then you are opposed to God and living according to the desires of your carnal mind.

Romans 8:7 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

Exactly. The flesh is contrary to the law. Being free from the body of flesh we can now live a life more holy than those under the law.

The law of Moses came 400 years after God made a covenant with Abraham.

Galatians 3:17 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.​

Exactly, and Galatians 3 is a treatise that salvation comes by faith, not by works.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Abraham obeyed the law of God 400 years before the law of Moses was given.

Genesis 26:5 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.​

The faith that drove Abraham to keep God's commandments was counted as righteousness.

nope. You need to stop plucking verses out of context and putting verses together that don't go together. We only have to continue reading in Galatians 3 to see the answer:

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Christians are called to have that same faith, and it is through the faith of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus that Christians will gain the grace of God.

Wrong again. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness through faith. You are trying to earn something God wants to give you as a gift. It is not by works that we earn God's grace because then it would be a debt God owes and would be the opposite of a gift. You need to stop offering God your works. :first:

 

[YahuShuan]

I have no problem dealing with the facts C,

I don't need to say Matthew or a chapter and verse number to know "Oh Ye of little faith" is from Matthew, and from Jesus.

Neither did the disciples when using Noahide law, they were well familiar where it came from.

here's a *hint*...it wasn't Moses, nor was it Abraham. it was in fact pre-Abrahamic covenant.

you can go on with your doctrine about the law of Moses now, join the Pharisees and their discussion about it Acts 15:5....

let the readers look at all the biblical facts and make their own decisions, I gather many of them have their thinking caps on today :wave2:

keep shinin

jerm

Yep, pretty much. Shabbat Shalom Jerm Enjoy the Day my friend.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I have no problem dealing with the facts C,

I don't need to say Matthew or a chapter and verse number to know "Oh Ye of little faith" is from Matthew, and from Jesus.

Neither did the disciples when using Noahide law, they were well familiar where it came from.

here's a *hint*...it wasn't Moses, nor was it Abraham. it was in fact pre-Abrahamic covenant.

you can go on with your doctrine about the law of Moses now, join the Pharisees and their discussion about it Acts 15:5....

let the readers look at all the biblical facts and make their own decisions, I gather many of them have their thinking caps on today

keep shinin

jerm

Yep, pretty much. Shabbat Shalom Jerm Enjoy the Day my friend.

:thumb:

and all God's children say,,, Aaaaaaaaaaaamen!

keep shinin

jerm

 

[IMJerusha]

He is teaching Replacement Theology. Actually, this is an excellent example of it.

And God's House is not divided. If it were, it could not stand. I have never condemned the practice of worship on the Lord's Day. It never mattered to me as long as folks observed one day of rest in honor of God's command. But when we accepted Yeshua as Messiah, we were grafted into Him and His tribe. We became part of God's people in Yeshua, the vine. We are the wild branches while believing Jews are the natural branches. Together, we are one. To claim that any one of God's commands don't apply to us is wrong.

Yeshua said: "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:19

 

[Choleric]

He is teaching Replacement Theology. Actually, this is an excellent example of it.
God's House is not divided. If it were, it could not stand. I have never condemned the practice of worship on the Lord's Day. It never mattered to me as long as folks observed one day of rest in honor of God's command. But when we accepted Yeshua as Messiah, we were grafted into Him and His tribe. We became part of God's people in Yeshua, the vine. We are the wild branches while believing Jews are the natural branches. Together, we are one. To claim that any one of God's commands don't apply to us is wrong.

Yeshua said: "Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:19

I have never taught replacement theology.

 

[IMJerusha]

I have never taught replacement theology.

Are you the gentleman whose voice is recorded in post #1 of this thread?

 

[Choleric]

Are you the gentleman whose voice is recorded in post #1 of this thread?

Negative, my bad. Thought it was directed at me as I was the last post and you did not reply to a specific post.

Carry on...:carryon: