It is my belief that salvation was never by works. Are you asking about grace or not being saved by works?
The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments.
- Thread starter Jacob
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It is my belief that salvation was never by works. Are you asking about grace or not being saved by works?
The hover text is already programed on this site. All a person needs to do is type the scripture reference.
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I'm asking about the scripture that you quoted.
Of course. The scripture I referenced is what I am talking to you about.
Galatians 3:23 NASB - 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Romans 11:6 NASB - 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Here is the scripture I referenced, now here quoted.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
See also...
Titus 3:5 NASB - 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Here is the key verse. Is it what God wanted them to do or their misunderstanding of works in relation to faith, or the lack of faith, or the non-existence of faith?
Romans 9:32 NASB - 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
It is my belief and contention (not being contentious, I am presenting a view contrary to that it was once by works) that salvation has never been by works. This is against works based righteousness meaning performance or righteousness given, imputed, earned, based, established, by works. A person needs faith. Then works are the result of salvation or follow or come after having faith. The only argument left to deal with is if faith itself is works. It is not a work in the sense of what is being asked, that is if we are or ever were, as God's people, saved by works. So do good works because God wants you to. They are not in order to be saved, but possibly because you are saved. Else don't believe you are saved because of your works or works added to faith. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
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You aren't actually reading my posts, are you?
Again: Why did God wait for thousands of years to put that in His Word?
God wanted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation.
Exodus 19:5-6 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people, for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.
The people proved themselves less than capable of being a kingdom of priests so God waited for the NT.
And here we are ready and willing to go.
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You are such a mixed bag.... some things you get right and some things so wrong.
The new covenant is with the SAME people as the old covenant. They are the kingdom of priests and the holy nation (and a chosen generation as Peter said).
1Pet 2:9-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:9) But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (2:10) Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (2:11) Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; (2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
These were the "strangers and pilgrims, scattered aboard" as in Acts 8:1 and James 1:1.
These are the "little flock" who were given the kingdom that Jesus took from religious leaders that would not believe on His name.
Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Luke 12:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
When Jesus returns to restore Israel, this current time of God's grace freely given will come to an end and God will judge the world and remove the chaff.
The basis for your question is what? Is it that you believe it was true all along and God didn't say it until then? Are you saying it was a new revelation? In any case, God's timing is always perfect. Your view is different from saying that the Bible, God's word, is all true for all time and that it never changes, that nothing can change in God's revelation or revealed word, when it is God's word for all time. It sounds like you believe some things of God's word have been different at different time periods. That or this may not be the case. That people would learn, yes. That God has more than one covenant, yes. That God's word changes, no.
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My point is that God does NOT always operate with mankind in the same way at all times. That His will has been revealed progressively throughout human history. The dispensation of the grace of God is NOT how God has always dealt with mankind.
When the Bible says that God does not change, it's talking about His nature and character and NOT about what He wants people to do. The faith that God demands that people have is NOT always the same. But the just will always live by the faith that God tells them to have.
Faith for Israel was for them to do what God told them. Faith for us is to do what God tells us.
Rom 1:17 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Not being a Jew, if you are not, you may simply understand that what you are obeying is different than what Israel obeys. Is this because of covenants, such as the old covenant and the law, being different from what you observe? What is the law, God's law written upon hearts and minds, in the new covenant? It is, as it was, for the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
But you are talking about a dispensation, which you call the dispensation of grace, though a time period as you have it is different than a stewardship given to Paul. Dispensationalism is certainly different from covenant Theology, but there are covenants and I don't know about dispensations, being an ex-dispensationalist or never having been a dispensationalist. Salvation has always been by grace. Do you understand that salvation is by grace through faith? Were people saved by faith before Christ? Yes, and even before and during the time following the giving of the Law. The time of the Law, as a phrase, seems to imply that the Law was either abolished at some point, that it was only for a time, or that we simply don't observe or follow it now. But people were saved by faith before just as they are now.
Romans 9:32 NASB - 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
I don't think or believe God confused them. He did not ask them to obey Him just to prove they were sinners and in need of grace or faith. The Law does show us our need for a Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Christ), God's Son. But the Law is also God's instruction. And, we can obey God's commands and live free from sin, by an act or choice or decision, those decisions that we make. And it is also because of God's grace that we can do so. But not because God somehow did not show grace then, whether this word was used or not. Is it how you are seeing it, the word grace, in the New Testament? In the Scriptures called the New Testament? With God's grace, in and because of God's grace even in Jesus (for all of time or for those who come or came after Him even living or being born afterward) choose to obey God's commands, His commandments.
But then Israel has celebrated God's grace annually since being rescued from Egypt.
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Good for them!
Which means Paul was not around when God's grace for Israel began.
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Play all the games that you want jamie.
There is nothing wrong when a Christian follows the Law of Moses. A Jew is obligated to do so, as this is the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.
I know about Messianic Judaism, and though you may be wrong about the Law or Messianic Judaism or Messianic Jews, I must say that Judaism or my identity as a Jew comes before that I attend a Messianic Jewish congregation. Meaning, in a sense I am a part of Messianic Judaism, even as I don't agree necessarily with Messianic doctrine. However, this statement or admission of mine might not even be in the area you are objecting to. You are making a point, but I see no reason to cherry pick anything. I accept all of God's Law. I observe Torah, though I live outside of the land of Israel.
You will do well if you do what you should do according to Acts 15 as a Christian, even a Christian who is not a Jew. There were Christians from among the Gentiles, and there are things for you to obey. Do they come from the Law or not?That is part of the discussion. But it would indeed be wrong to say Christians are not under commands and Laws such as that anyone would want to escape God's commands completely. But the issue here was the Judaizers, who were teaching that you must observe the entire or whole Law and be circumcised to be saved or have fellowship with other believers. But no one is saved by observing the Law to begin with. You may then ask, why do we observe God's Law or why do we obey God's commands? And, in the new covenant what are we to obey as Jews and Gentiles? The new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Gentiles for one do not need to be circumcised.
Hopeless.
Your doctrine is not based in scripture. It's not rational, its emotional. God Himself could not convince you.
You're the one playing games.
I don't know how to help you with this. I accept all of God's word (the Bible).
You cannot be saved by circumcision. If you think you can you are wrong. Salvation is not by works, it is by faith. When you obey God's commands, you also should do so, you should do this, in faith. Obedience can only be in and by faith.
Circumcision was before Israel even...
Grace was in the garden when blood was shed to make skins to cover fallen man instead of killing him outright...
As killing them outright would prove an unmerciful God...
and a play into the hands of the accuser who claimed Yah was exactly that...an ungood God...
I don't know what you are talking about and as for the skins it is best to believe what the Bible says.