The Sabbath commandment is one of the Ten Commandments.

clefty

New member
A non-Jew can convert to Judaism and become a Jew, whether a Christian or not, even remaining a Christian. A Jew can become a Christian and remain a Jew. A Jew by birth, faith, or religion, and yet a Christian. Either way, Jew or Gentile, Jew or Christian, knowing that a Christian can be a Jew, believe the truth that Yeshua is the Messiah, Jesus the Christ. He is God's anointed, and His only begotten Son, the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm....no...not by faith nor religion

One can be considered an ethnic Jew but not a Jew by religion if accepting Yahushua as messiah...the disciples were ethnic Jews but believed the messiah came...thus rejected by religious Jews whose fundamental belief is is the messiah is yet
to come...

Just like Jews who believe there is no God...thus remain only "ethnically" Jewish


Ironic no? A Jew believing there is no God is in the same place the one believing He had a Son is...outside the camp...


The whole thing is laughable as being Jewish is not one ethnic group...you have all variations of peoples...some Semitic even

Jews are neither one ethnic group nor one religious faith
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I don't know where you are coming up with this from, but I don't speak like you. Believe the Bible. Don't accuse someone who is watching over your soul of repeating themself.
You have ignored every argument I've made and are now, rather than making any sort of response at all, simply reverting back to repeating your position that I have already refuted by doing nothing at all other than directly quoting the Apostle Paul which you claim to accept equally with the rest of scripture but completely ignore in practice.

Now, go ahead and repeat for me how that isn't true and that you accept all of God's word. Don't make any sort of argument or anything, that would be far too much for anyone to ask of you on a theology debate forum!

I only say this because you are rejecting the truth, and you are in the wrong, and you are resorting to rhetoric to try to defeat me or push me away.
You are wasting my time, Jacob! We've had the same conversation in triplicate over the last several days and you've stated and restated your position and I've quoted and requoted the Apostle Paul directly contradicting what your doctrine and you have repeatedly ignore it.

I have presented the truth of the Bible to you. It is up to you whether or not you accept it. Otherwise I can do nothing for you.
That's my line, Jacob. That is my line - not yours. The entire book of Galatians was written specifically to defeat your exact doctrine (a point I've made at least a half-dozen times - without response).

You ought not to speak of Judaism or one's identity in or with Israel and a chosen religion. You put Judaism among false religions as a Christian, which is wrong for you to do.
Practricing Judaism is in direct violation of God's commands given through the Apostle Paul. You claim to obey God and ignore the Apostle of Grace. More than that, you ignore the gospel he preached and wish to resurrect the Law which God nailed to the cross. (Another point I've made several times without response.)

I said it before and I'll say it once more (I really am tired of repeating myself)... Your doctrine is emotionally based. You do not make any effort to learn the truth but rather seak that which cofirms your religion. You are emotionally entrenched to the point that God Himself could hardly convince you. You are playing the part of Peter when Paul withstood him to his face....

Galatains 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”​

Your doctrine cannot survive the book of Galatians. You're simply in denial because you love your religion more than you do the word of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Sabbath survived this just as it survived the Original curses destroying everything else He created. It is Holy and Sanctified... and for it's counterfeit claims for the Sabbath...

The Book of the Law was placed beside the ark but not in the ark with the covenant.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you."​

The Book of the Law was placed beside the ark because it was only for Israel and it was temporary.
 

clefty

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The Book of the Law was placed beside the ark but not in the ark with the covenant.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying: "Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you."​

The Book of the Law was placed beside the ark because it was only for Israel and it was temporary.

The Sabbath Law was in the ark...and yes what was placed outside is still only for Israel or now affectionately known as that church in the wilderness...

It's placed outside the ark because in it is the curse and shedding of blood...

You do realize the ark is the seat of mercy yes?

Mercy from what? The curse...it remains...and only in Him are we spared...

What was in the ark reveals the Father...what is laid outside the ark reveals the Son...and yes it is only for Israel...the curse will destroy any who are not in Him...His people
 
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jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
The Sabbath Law was in the ark...and yes what was placed outside is still only for Israel or now affectionately known as that church in the wilderness...

The Book of the Law was only valid until the coming of Christ.

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.​
 

clefty

New member
The Book of the Law was only valid until the coming of Christ.

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.​

Right...exactly...and the Seed came and then grew in wisdom and stature in favor with Yah and man...

Without law? Was it made invalid when He came? Of course not! He kept it as an example and taught we should do the same...the disciples did...as did the early church...

As if He came to destroy or alter the teaching the tutor taught...

He and His Father are One...teaching another gospel another Law...divides the house

The Law was valid until He came and beyond...He did away with the curse of it not The Law itself...it remains still pointing out sin...and both He and it will be needed on judgement day...

I once upon a time had a math class that taught that 1+1=2...it was hard for me to understand so I was given a tutor...she taught the same 1+1=2...I got it!

And even now, after that dear woman is long gone, 1+1 still equals 2.
 

jamie

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Without law? Was it made invalid when He came? Of course not! He kept it as an example and taught we should do the same...the disciples did...as did the early church...

The Mosaic law was valid until the death of the Testator of the NT.

The covenant in the ark defined a marriage covenant, but Israel was less than faithful to the covenant. When Christ died that terminated the marriage to Israel and now Jesus is offering that same covenant to those who are willing. The covenant is an all or nothing deal. If a person rejects any part of the covenant they are saying no to Jesus' offer of marriage.
 

clefty

New member
The Mosaic law was valid until the death of the Testator of the NT.

The covenant in the ark defined a marriage covenant, but Israel was less than faithful to the covenant. When Christ died that terminated the marriage to Israel and now Jesus is offering that same covenant to those who are willing. The covenant is an all or nothing deal. If a person rejects any part of the covenant they are saying no to Jesus' offer of marriage.

Yes of course. The marriage was ended due to the wife's disobedience. Now imagine if that immutable Law actually wasn't...changes could be made and there would have been no need at all to dissolve the vows...or more importantly changes could have been made so that the husband would not have to die...

Alas what is a vow is a vow and He means what He says...forever...

And now He seeks anothe bride to join the new vow but on the same terms of obedience...and obedience to the same immutable Law...that's why it is called immutable...

He doesn't change hence He doesn't change His mind about what He expects from His Lifetime partner...ya dig?

Imagine if the apostles could have made changes too...why they wouldn't even have had to been persecuted much less killed...

Had you read Acts carefully you would have read it was false witnesses who accused them of teaching an end or change to the Law or traditions of their fathers...

"follow me as I follow Him" said Paul...that is being faithful in all things...
 

jamie

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Had you read Acts carefully you would have read it was false witnesses who accused them of teaching an end or change to the Law or traditions of their fathers...

Oh, I wish I had read Acts. Does it say Christians are required to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses?
 

Jacob

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There is Biblical Christianity and Biblical Judaism. We also have the Judeo-Christian ethic, principle, and religion.
 

Jacob

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Nope, the Father is neither Jew nor Gentile ... and we are his children, neither Jew nor Gentile.

You have only fooled yourself.

God is our Father as Jews, and the Father (God) of both Jew and Gentile. May the Gentiles praise His name, honor Him, and give glory to His name.

I am not a fool and I have not fooled myself. As a Gentile and a Christian I worshipped the one true God, the God of the Bible, and Jesus Christ His only begotten Son. As a Christian I separated from Gentiles. I was a part of the church, the body of Christ, which I still am, and was even as a Gentile. A Christian can become a Jew, whether a Gentile or having separated from Gentiles. Not from Gentile Christians, but from the ways of the Gentiles if and when they are against God and His commands. God wants the best for all of us, but we have to leave the ways of the world, sin, in the past. If you are a Christian you are a new creature. A new creation in Jesus Christ. You have been forgiven of your sin and the penalty, power, and predicament of sin have been dealt with. If you are not already free from the power and presence of sin, one day you will be, if you are in Christ. The influence of the world, and the temptation of the world, are no match for God and His power through His Spirit who dwells in you by faith, if you belong to Him and are a son or a daughter of God, a child of God. May you have victory over sin and may satan be defeated. May the world leave you alone and may the life you live be new in Christ whether personal or private or public family and friends, with all whom you meet and come into contact with.

As a child of God, yes you are a child of God. But you do not lose your identity as the person God has made you or the person you have become. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ. God treats all the same. And yet, if you were born a Jew or you are a convert, or if you are a Christian being a Jew or not, even if not a Gentile or a Greek, you are a Jew. If you are a Gentile and righteous God will bless you. May you live separate from the ways of the Gentiles, whether you are a Gentile, a Gentile nation, or a Gentile among the nations. I believe the word Gentile means nation, maybe nations. Gentile and Gentiles.

Are you a part of the church the body of Christ and consider yourself neither a Jew nor a Gentile, neither a Jew nor a Greek?
 
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Jacob

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Then why the need of yours to be of a tribe?

I don't understand your question. Please explain.

I am a of Israel, as a Jew, a convert, a proselyte. But if I am of Levi am I a Jew? A Gentile does not have a tribe. A Gentile is not of a tribe of Israel. I am not a Gentile. It has been suggested that a convert is not of a tribe. Why not Levi? And why not another tribe? There are twelve tribes, and Levi is one of them except when Levi is not mentioned. Then the tribe of Joseph becomes that of his two sons, two tribes. Do you see a difference between a Levite or one who is of Levi and a Jew? If one is of Israel is he a Jew? Israel, the Jew, and Levi. So also we have a Jew being of Judah, whether tribe or the southern kingdom Judah which went into exile for 70 years in Babylon, but came back to the land and Jerusalem and the temple were rebuilt. When there was the northern kingdom, Israel, and the southern kingdom, Judah, where was Levi? May your studies of scripture prove fruitful. The history here is important, and may or may not involve the history of Israel, the Israelite, Judah (the southern kingdom or the tribe), the Jew, and Levi, with or without the other tribes of the southern kingdom Judah.
 

Jacob

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Sure it does...they love each other...as do muslims...Buddhists...

But we are to love just AS He loved us...He loved us even when we were enemies...

His love included a Sabbath rest...

ironic from one claiming to be Christian and then a desire to be one of the tribes...
Neither Israel nor Christianity is pagan clefty. I have no idea what you are saying here or why. A desire to be of a tribe is one thing. Identity among a tribe or as a part of a tribe is another. Being that I was not born a Jew the only way to be a part of a tribe is to become part of a tribe. And with neither parent being a Jew this means I am not a Gentile, of Israel, and to be or already am a part of a tribe. Either I am of Levi as a convert or Levi knows which tribe I am or which I should be a part of. Who was it that converted me, vs. if Levi knows which tribe a person is according to Jewish heritage, identity, and tribal lineage. National identity and tribal affiliation in the diaspora, or since the northern kingdom, the northern tribes, were taken by Assyria or after the destruction of the second temple, etc.... are all important to think about. Many say there were people in Europe who were really Jews, of Israel, even though they may or may not have mixed with the nations after being taken captive or dispersed.
 
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Jacob

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If you had taken the time to review the linked content and not posted under two minutes after my post you would know the answer to this question. :AMR:

AMR

I have the Bible. I don't need Protestant religion. I was already born not a Catholic. My Dad is an ex-Catholic. He is a Christian. I am a Christian. But now I am also a Jew, following Judaism. Are you talking about Reformed Christianity or are you a Reformed or Protestant Christian? I have the Bible, whether Christian or Jew, and I don't believe in Spiritual Israel already. So there is a doctrinal difference that keeps me from following your link and being infected by your doctrine. I choose to be built up in the truth of who I am, whether studying Torah the Jewish Bible, the TaNaKh the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish New Testament, (the Old Testament) or the New Testament, or the Christian Bible or the Bible. I knew about the Bible before knowing there is a Christian Bible. I don't need false religion, and I don't know the price of clicking on your link... the price of following the link rather than there being a monetary price... the spiritual and physical price of engaging my mind in that which I have already rejected. Perhaps you can relate to me what you want to communicate to me, and how you see it to agree with the Bible or to come from the Bible. We can talk about what the Bible says.

I don't know how or why you want to reject what I am saying by posting a link and chastising me for not following it or reading it. No one has to follow any link. I also don't know what your link is about. My question of you which you have not answered is where the discussion on this thread and with you entering in was at when I posted it. It is simply that if you do not believe what is found in Torah you will misunderstand what you read in the New Testament or the Christian New Testament.
 
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Jacob

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Ummm....no...not by faith nor religion

One can be considered an ethnic Jew but not a Jew by religion if accepting Yahushua as messiah...the disciples were ethnic Jews but believed the messiah came...thus rejected by religious Jews whose fundamental belief is is the messiah is yet
to come...

Just like Jews who believe there is no God...thus remain only "ethnically" Jewish


Ironic no? A Jew believing there is no God is in the same place the one believing He had a Son is...outside the camp...


The whole thing is laughable as being Jewish is not one ethnic group...you have all variations of peoples...some Semitic even

Jews are neither one ethnic group nor one religious faith

You are wrong because you say a Jew cannot be a Christian. You would force a Jew to become a Christian if he wants to believe in Jesus as the Christ be it that you preach Jesus the Christ to him whether by teaching or the gospel or preaching. The early church was entirely Jewish. The early believers were Jews, not Gentiles.

Faith, religion, ethnicity. These are all important to a Jew. But a convert is not a Jew by ethnicity.

You know a Jew can become a Christian, and remain a Jew when he does so. What about a Christian becoming of Israel, a Jew or a Levite, whether by being circumcised and observing Torah or God's law being written on his heart and mind in the new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah or already having been circumcised, or even being circumcised again or more than once (consider Rabbinical circumcision and conversion if you want to become a Jew, unless your first circumcision or circumcision otherwise suffices or sufficed). My understanding is that you were not born a Jew so you would need to convert, which is unnecessary either if you are a Christian believer or you observe the Sabbath or Torah having not been born a Jew. You need not be circumcised if you are not circumcised currently, but you either would not be of Israel or you would need to search for if there is a Biblical way to be of Israel without being circumcised. Some say Biblical Israel is not ethnic or national Israel. They say this of believers in the new covenant who are either circumcised or not. But in Isaiah 56 it is the foreigner who can join himself with Israel and observe the Sabbath. The question is if he is or will become circumcised, or if he can join Israel or join with Israel in observing the Sabbath, etc... without being circumcised. There is one law for Israel and those who dwell in the land, God's covenant people. Are you grafted in as a Christian? What are you grafted in to? Who was cut off? Some branches were, and they can be grafted in again. But the early church was entirely Jewish.
 
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Jacob

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You have ignored every argument I've made and are now, rather than making any sort of response at all, simply reverting back to repeating your position that I have already refuted by doing nothing at all other than directly quoting the Apostle Paul which you claim to accept equally with the rest of scripture but completely ignore in practice.

Now, go ahead and repeat for me how that isn't true and that you accept all of God's word. Don't make any sort of argument or anything, that would be far too much for anyone to ask of you on a theology debate forum!


You are wasting my time, Jacob! We've had the same conversation in triplicate over the last several days and you've stated and restated your position and I've quoted and requoted the Apostle Paul directly contradicting what your doctrine and you have repeatedly ignore it.


That's my line, Jacob. That is my line - not yours. The entire book of Galatians was written specifically to defeat your exact doctrine (a point I've made at least a half-dozen times - without response).

Practricing Judaism is in direct violation of God's commands given through the Apostle Paul. You claim to obey God and ignore the Apostle of Grace. More than that, you ignore the gospel he preached and wish to resurrect the Law which God nailed to the cross. (Another point I've made several times without response.)

I said it before and I'll say it once more (I really am tired of repeating myself)... Your doctrine is emotionally based. You do not make any effort to learn the truth but rather seak that which cofirms your religion. You are emotionally entrenched to the point that God Himself could hardly convince you. You are playing the part of Peter when Paul withstood him to his face....

Galatains 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”​

Your doctrine cannot survive the book of Galatians. You're simply in denial because you love your religion more than you do the word of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete,

You are asking me to repeat myself, defeat myself, saying I am not responding to you, and not believing me when I say that Galatians is true and for both of us. It sounds like you believe you understand Galatians. We may be able to discuss Galatians more. I am willing to do so. You have already seen my pm from before, and I can post that here if you would like. The problem was either Judaizers or pagan religion. Or salvation being viewed as by works rather than by faith. If you have received the Spirit by faith you should continue the same way. By the Spirit by faith. There is no other option for you and for your salvation. You may not be of Israel, but you can call yourself a believer and a Christian, and enjoy equal status, position, and situation with other members of the body of Christ the church within the body of Christ the church, whether Jew or Gentile ((for) there is no distinction). If you believe yourself to be of Israel because you are a believer and of or in the church, the body of Christ, whether you are circumcised or not, you may be wanting to call yourself of Israel but unless you are circumcised you Biblically cannot observe Passover. If you are not circumcised it is my understanding that you are not of Israel. Do you want to make a different argument from scripture or are you satisfied that you are in the church the body of Christ and saved by faith as even the Jew of Israel is, not being saved by works? We are all saved the same way, whether you are of Israel and Judaism or Christianity, by grace through faith and not of works.
 

clefty

New member
Oh, I wish I had read Acts. Does it say Christians are required to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses?

You haven't even read the part where Gentiles have Moses read to them Sabbath after Sabbath as they crowded the synagogues week after week...James knew this would continue as he understood faith leads to a DESIRE to do works...to be faithful in all things...not to be saved but for being saved...

It's there in Acts...right next to the kosher requirements of Gentiles...again, not to be saved but merely to associate with them...

Now what I haven't read is the complaints of Gentiles that all this was too burdensome...

Even in the OT the stranger/foreigner was not required to be cut to exodus to salvation and freedom with Israel but would allow himself to be cut because he WANTED to celebrate the memorial of it...the Passover...the day he was given freedom for believing the God of Israel
 
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jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
God is our Father as Jews, and the Father (God) of both Jew and Gentile.

Yes, all souls belong to God and he has given some to his Son.

Judaism is a false religion because they reject Jesus as the Christ.

However, there is no reconciliation with the Father except through Jesus Christ.

Adherents of Judaism have estranged themselves from the Father like a wayward son.

You have gotten caught up in their blindness.
 

jamie

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You haven't even read the part were Gentiles have Moses read to them Sabbath after Sabbath as they crowded the synagogues week after week...

Yes, Moses was taught in the synagogues and Jesus Christ was taught at the Temple. Different teachings.
 

Jacob

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Yes, all souls belong to God and he has given some to his Son.

Judaism is a false religion because they reject Jesus as the Christ.

However, there is no reconciliation with the Father except through Jesus Christ.

Adherents of Judaism have estranged themselves from the Father like a wayward son.

You have gotten caught up in their blindness.

Judaism is where we have the expectation of the coming of Messiah and the fulfillment of it as well, in Yeshua. We also have the commands or commandments of God, God's Law. Christianity came later. Jesus is understood to be the Christ in Christianity. That is, the Messiah.
 
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