The resurrection to life or judgement

[JudgeRightly]

Ezek 4:6--

This was a prophecy regarding the Siege of Jerusalem that occurred in the 6th century BC.

Num 14:34--

This was simply God punishing Israel for gathering against Him.

there is a day for a year rule.

Only for specific things. None of which concern Christ's return.

No king sat on the throne 2520 days after the removal of the last king in Jerusalem.

Did you miss the prophecy found in Daniel 4? 2520 days when a king will sit on Gods throne from the removal of the last king--

There is no prophecy in Daniel 4, at least, not one that concerns any specific length of time, or that has any bearing on this discussion.

Daniel 8 has a prophecy of 2300 days (which is about 6.3 years, by the way). This prophecy concerns the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 8:17) There is ZERO mention of the number of days being significant of years, and at the end of the chapter, Gabriel (the angel that was told to make Daniel understand) tells Daniel specifically that it is a "vision of the evenings and mornings," and "it refers to many days in the future."
Daniel 9 has a prophecy of 70 weeks. (seventy "sevens" of years = 490 years) This prophecy concerns the rebuilding of the temple and the cutting off of the messiah, after which the tribulation begins. It has nothing to do with "days = years."
Daniel 9 was mostly fulfilled. The temple was rebuilt, the Messiah was cut off, but the final week (seven year period) was not fulfilled.
In fact, it was only a single year after Pentecost when something happened to make God put everything on hold.

The command went out to restore Jerusalem and the temple.
69 "weeks" (483 years) pass.
Jesus the Messiah is cut off (crucified), signaling the start of the final week of the prophecy.

That rule applies.

Because you say so?

 

[Keiw1]

This was a prophecy regarding the Siege of Jerusalem that occurred in the 6th century BC.



This was simply God punishing Israel for gathering against Him.



Only for specific things. None of which concern Christ's return.




There is no prophecy in Daniel 4, at least, not one that concerns any specific length of time, or that has any bearing on this discussion.

Daniel 8 has a prophecy of 2300 days (which is about 6.3 years, by the way). This prophecy concerns the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 8:17) There is ZERO mention of the number of days being significant of years, and at the end of the chapter, Gabriel (the angel that was told to make Daniel understand) tells Daniel specifically that it is a "vision of the evenings and mornings," and "it refers to many days in the future."
Daniel 9 has a prophecy of 70 weeks. (seventy "sevens" of years = 490 years) This prophecy concerns the rebuilding of the temple and the cutting off of the messiah, after which the tribulation begins. It has nothing to do with "days = years."
Daniel 9 was mostly fulfilled. The temple was rebuilt, the Messiah was cut off, but the final week (seven year period) was not fulfilled.
In fact, it was only a single year after Pentecost when something happened to make God put everything on hold.

The command went out to restore Jerusalem and the temple.
69 "weeks" (483 years) pass.
Jesus the Messiah is cut off (crucified), signaling the start of the final week of the prophecy.



Because you say so?

7x = 2520 days

 

[JudgeRightly]

7x = 2520 days

Seven times what?

Again, it's seventy periods of seven years. The seventieth seven-year period started, but never finished, at Christ's crucifixion.

 

[Keiw1]

Seven times what?

Again, it's seventy periods of seven years. The seventieth seven-year period started, but never finished, at Christ's crucifixion.

It as well was a prophecy concerning nebuchadnezzars return to the throne-it cant possibly be 70 x 7 years concerning him-2520 days concerning him, 2520 years when Jesus received his crown at Rev 6:2

 

[JudgeRightly]

It as well was a prophecy concerning nebuchadnezzars return to the throne-it cant possibly be 70 x 7 years concerning him-2520 days concerning him, 2520 years when Jesus received his crown at Rev 6:2

You're all over the place. Answer the questions I ask, please.

And again, there is no specific time period given in Daniel 4. I'm still not sure how you're getting 2520.

70 * 7 = 490, not 2520...

 

[Ps82]

I have not been on TOL for years. I have not kept up with this thread. I don't plan to pick up on any previous conversations between individuals. I plan to write my ideas. Something new that will build to the topic of Resurrection to Life or Judgement. I always have to start with 'in the beginning' because what God did in the beginning affects everything afterward. I can offer scripture but that is time consuming; so, I will assume you can do a search for the Bible references for your self.

Gen. 1 God created male and female ...
1. Important point: You will see in Genesis 1 where God is forming unique realms for existence within himself.
2. Yet male female are only living spiritual beings not yet having any body. Where do they exist? Ans. Living WITHIN the realms God established.
3. Important point: God gives his first command to male and female in the beginning by telling them to reproduce and multiply. This becomes a process to happen over time.
4. Male and female are not yet manifested upon the ground/in the Garden.

Gen. 2
1. God formed mankind a body out of the elements called ground. To me ground is a general noun which simply includes a vast array of elements from which the earth was formed.
2. Important point: Mankind is attached to or must partake of those elements from the start due to his bodily association with them.

Gen. 3
1. Satan tempts Adam and Woman.
2. They rebel.
3. Immediate punishments are given to Satan, Woman and Adam.
4. Satan's position is changed to one lower than the cattle that roam the earth.
5. Important point: He is told he would now partake of the ground elements for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Hmmm ... does this mean the life of an angel end???
6. Woman, who already partakes of the ground elements due to her created body of such, is told that her pain and her child-birthing will increase.
7. Adam is told he will toil and will partake of the ground elements for the rest of his life.

Important point: Now, God has all three of them associated with or partaking of the elements of the ground. He then curses the ground!!!

For what reason? Ans. Because the curse upon the ground brought death into mankind's physical body. It was established as a process over time just like birthing is a process over time.

This is called the first death for humanity. Because of it the entire earth is wearing out like an old garment. Important point: Yet, the curse is now upon Satan because he was told to partake of it for the rest of his life.

Now, where does the original living spirit of mankind created in Gen. 1 go after its physical first death? Well, God created realms for the existence of things back in Genesis 1. In other places in scripture I've heard the mention of "barns for storing things." I believe the New Testament refers to such things by saying "The bosom of Abraham" and "the Pit" and a "place of heat thirst and torment."

Demons were terrified of being thrown into the Pit ,so they must know that is their destiny at some point.
I'm figuring mankind has had two places to consider for a time.
1. The bosom of Abraham
2. The place of torment

Yet, after Christ arose we are told he went to prepare a place for the saved to dwell until God is ready to end all things. It is mentioned in the NT in 2 Corinthians 5:1-3. There we are told we presently groan in this body of ground elements, but when we experience our first fleshly death we will THEN GO to a place where we will be clothed with a new house/tabernacle/bodily form. This is the place where the Saints ask, "How long must we wait?"

However, the lost spirits of mankind still go to the place of torment. I call it hell. There they wait.

Now around the time Christ returns and the rapture happens: A lot happens but at least believers are changed in the twinkling of an eye and they meet up with the Saints in the Sky. This crowd of Saints will rule under Christ as King for 1,000 years upon the earth along with regular people who survived that stage. They will continue to have children.

Now Satan is still not gone. He rules over all the condemned angels and humans. The demons may be thrown into that pit they feared until they are loosed for the final rebellion of men and angels.

Remember how Satan argued with an angel of the LORD over Moses's body? He felt he owned Moses body and spirit attached to it because Moses had committed such horrendous sins. Why did he think he had a right to Moses? Ans: He had been given the command from God to partake of the elements of the ground for the rest of his life. IOW, so goes the elements of the ground so goes the lost men and angels still attached to / partaking of IT.

After 1,000 years of reign on earth God will renew this cursed earth and make it suitable for his eternal kingdom and its citizens. The time for the second death has come.

Here are my conclusions: The false prophet, the beast, Satan and all that he has a right to possess will go into the Lake of Fire.

There are pastors who are adamant about their facing eternal suffering. I am not so sure about that yet and here is why. God has held off on ending everything because he has been growing a family and that was a process over time. He made death a process over time so Adam and Woman could keep reproducing children. Since Satan and mankind are going to face the same death - the second death, I think God has waited to end all things until he was ready to destroy the lives of created sentient beings like men and angels. IOW, the originals will no longer exist after the Lake of Fire.

What makes me think the second death is experienced by both men and angels? Ps 82:6,7 where God told Satan this at his trial: I have said, Ye are gods; and ALL of you are children of the most High. 7 but YOU [Satan] shall die LIKE MEN, and fall like one of the princes.

I'm predicting the second death for humanity and the first death for angels will be the finish for death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and all who don't have the additional spiritual life Jesus has to offer will be gone.

 

[7djengo7]

What makes me think the second death is experienced by both men and angels? Ps 82:6,7 where God told Satan this at his trial: I have said, Ye are gods; and ALL of you are children of the most High. 7 but YOU [Satan] shall die LIKE MEN, and fall like one of the princes.

God can't be telling men -- who shall, indeed, die like men (since they are men) -- that they shall die like men? Does God's saying "you shall die like men" really necessitate that He must be talking to personages of Satan's nature, rather than to men? If Satan and other incorporeal beings can/shall die, then would not they not die like themselves, rather than die like beings whom they are not? Couldn't God be reminding men in positions of power and preeminence over other men to humble themselves before God, that they not let their power and preeminence (given them from above) go to their heads, lest they, in their vain pride, forget what they really are? And, it seems to me that Satan could be him to whom God is referring as "one of the princes", so that God is warning human potentates they shall fall like Lucifer/Satan.

Also, it seems kind of strange to think God would be saying "Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked," to Satan.

 

[7djengo7]

What makes me think the second death is experienced by both men and angels?

I'm predicting the second death for humanity and the first death for angels

Angels experience "the first death for angels" in/by experiencing the second death? That kind of makes it sound like angels shall not die LIKE MEN, since men had already died once, before the second death.

Matthew 25:41 says: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

If "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" is the lake of fire, and if the lake of fire is the second death, it seems strange to call the devil and his angels' being cast into the second death, "the first death for angels".

 

[Ps82]

God can't be telling men -- who shall, indeed, die like men (since they are men) -- that they shall die like men? Does God's saying "you shall die like men" really necessitate that He must be talking to personages of Satan's nature, rather than to men? If Satan and other incorporeal beings can/shall die, then would not they not die like themselves, rather than die like beings whom they are not? Couldn't God be reminding men in positions of power and preeminence over other men to humble themselves before God, that they not let their power and preeminence (given them from above) go to their heads, lest they, in their vain pride, forget what they really are? And, it seems to me that Satan could be him to whom God is referring as "one of the princes", so that God is warning human potentates they shall fall like Lucifer/Satan.

Also, it seems kind of strange to think God would be saying "Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked," to Satan.

Just let me explain how I see Ps82 and I'll bet you never see it the same again.

Read it like a play with scenes with dialogue between characters. I will paraphrase but you go back and compare.
Scene 1 has God seated standing among the mighty judging among the gods. There is a particular individual, not any group, standing right in front of God pleading his own defense:

This individual is questioning God's fairness by askingvs1-4) How long will you judge unjustly? He then goes on to list the ways God is being unfair: How long will you accept the wicked persons? Defend the poor and fatherless? Do justice to the afflicted and needy? Deliver the poor and needy? Rid them out of the hand of the wicked?

[Now, I ask you 7djengo7 what persons in creation are more afflicted, most poor and fatherless, and needy? Who are the persons whom God shows unwarranted mercy by rescuing them from the wicked who try to harm them?] I would say it is mankind who was cast out of God's presence, became mortal and who is guilty of rebellion? So who is it that has been declared man's great accuser? You will understand clearly as you read further.]

Since I have suggested these hurting individuals are humanity read on. (vs5) They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

[Now, I ask you 7ujengo7 who seem to be the most clueless of God's plans and doings? Who caused the foundations of the earth to be out of course? I suggest mankind. Why? Due to their own free will they caused death to come into the whole WORLD and thus so into their then afflicted bodies. They set the course for physical death and for the whole world to be wearing out like an old garment. Now can you already see Satan standing before God Almighty accusing God of being unfair by being too merciful to mankind?]

I like to call the rest of Ps82 scene 2 ... even though the scene is the same. God Almighty speaks and gives a sentence to the one before him and adds what's coming in the future. Watch (vs6-8)

6 I have said, "You are gods; and ALL OF YOU are children of the most High.

[You can be singular or plural, but in this case definitely plural. Now God could be speaking to anyone present at this trial: Satan and his angels; Satan and mankind who might be in an audience??? We just know he mentioned ALL OF YOU and I believe angels and men could be considered gods children because he created them ALL.]

7 But you shall die like MEN, and fall like one of the princes.

[Now, if you read enough scripture you will find the word princes was often used when talking about men who were leaders among Israel and so forth. AND it would be appropriate for God to say to an angel - you will like MEN. But the question is how which I covered in my original post - so goes the cursed elements of the ground so go lost men and angels - at least men and Satan. Next for the future which I'm sure Satan also hated to hear! God speaks to someone with him who was him!]

8 Arise , O God, judge the earth: for Thou shalt inherit all nations.

[Now, 7ujengo7 I ask you: Who is the God, who was with God and was God, who arose? Who is predicted to inherit the nations and judge among the saved and the lost? Obviously our Lord Jesus. Poor Satan. He did not give a good defense for himself and he will die like men. It is called the second death for humanity but the first death for him. God is fair to men and Satan, but merciful to humanity by not putting the sins of their father upon them forever. Thank you Jesus for being the truth, the way and the life. Amen]

 

[Derf]

I have not been on TOL for years. I have not kept up with this thread. I don't plan to pick up on any previous conversations between individuals. I plan to write my ideas. Something new that will build to the topic of Resurrection to Life or Judgement. I always have to start with 'in the beginning' because what God did in the beginning affects everything afterward. I can offer scripture but that is time consuming; so, I will assume you can do a search for the Bible references for your self.

Gen. 1 God created male and female ...
1. Important point: You will see in Genesis 1 where God is forming unique realms for existence within himself.
2. Yet male female are only living spiritual beings not yet having any body. Where do they exist? Ans. Living WITHIN the realms God established.
3. Important point: God gives his first command to male and female in the beginning by telling them to reproduce and multiply. This becomes a process to happen over time.
4. Male and female are not yet manifested upon the ground/in the Garden.

Gen. 2
1. God formed mankind a body out of the elements called ground. To me ground is a general noun which simply includes a vast array of elements from which the earth was formed.
2. Important point: Mankind is attached to or must partake of those elements from the start due to his bodily association with them.

Gen. 3
1. Satan tempts Adam and Woman.
2. They rebel.
3. Immediate punishments are given to Satan, Woman and Adam.
4. Satan's position is changed to one lower than the cattle that roam the earth.
5. Important point: He is told he would now partake of the ground elements for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Hmmm ... does this mean the life of an angel end???
6. Woman, who already partakes of the ground elements due to her created body of such, is told that her pain and her child-birthing will increase.
7. Adam is told he will toil and will partake of the ground elements for the rest of his life.

Important point: Now, God has all three of them associated with or partaking of the elements of the ground. He then curses the ground!!!

For what reason? Ans. Because the curse upon the ground brought death into mankind's physical body. It was established as a process over time just like birthing is a process over time.

This is called the first death for humanity. Because of it the entire earth is wearing out like an old garment. Important point: Yet, the curse is now upon Satan because he was told to partake of it for the rest of his life.

Now, where does the original living spirit of mankind created in Gen. 1 go after its physical first death? Well, God created realms for the existence of things back in Genesis 1. In other places in scripture I've heard the mention of "barns for storing things." I believe the New Testament refers to such things by saying "The bosom of Abraham" and "the Pit" and a "place of heat thirst and torment."

Demons were terrified of being thrown into the Pit ,so they must know that is their destiny at some point.
I'm figuring mankind has had two places to consider for a time.
1. The bosom of Abraham
2. The place of torment

Yet, after Christ arose we are told he went to prepare a place for the saved to dwell until God is ready to end all things. It is mentioned in the NT in 2 Corinthians 5:1-3. There we are told we presently groan in this body of ground elements, but when we experience our first fleshly death we will THEN GO to a place where we will be clothed with a new house/tabernacle/bodily form. This is the place where the Saints ask, "How long must we wait?"

However, the lost spirits of mankind still go to the place of torment. I call it hell. There they wait.

Now around the time Christ returns and the rapture happens: A lot happens but at least believers are changed in the twinkling of an eye and they meet up with the Saints in the Sky. This crowd of Saints will rule under Christ as King for 1,000 years upon the earth along with regular people who survived that stage. They will continue to have children.

Now Satan is still not gone. He rules over all the condemned angels and humans. The demons may be thrown into that pit they feared until they are loosed for the final rebellion of men and angels.

Remember how Satan argued with an angel of the LORD over Moses's body? He felt he owned Moses body and spirit attached to it because Moses had committed such horrendous sins. Why did he think he had a right to Moses? Ans: He had been given the command from God to partake of the elements of the ground for the rest of his life. IOW, so goes the elements of the ground so goes the lost men and angels still attached to / partaking of IT.

After 1,000 years of reign on earth God will renew this cursed earth and make it suitable for his eternal kingdom and its citizens. The time for the second death has come.

Here are my conclusions: The false prophet, the beast, Satan and all that he has a right to possess will go into the Lake of Fire.

There are pastors who are adamant about their facing eternal suffering. I am not so sure about that yet and here is why. God has held off on ending everything because he has been growing a family and that was a process over time. He made death a process over time so Adam and Woman could keep reproducing children. Since Satan and mankind are going to face the same death - the second death, I think God has waited to end all things until he was ready to destroy the lives of created sentient beings like men and angels. IOW, the originals will no longer exist after the Lake of Fire.

What makes me think the second death is experienced by both men and angels? Ps 82:6,7 where God told Satan this at his trial: I have said, Ye are gods; and ALL of you are children of the most High. 7 but YOU [Satan] shall die LIKE MEN, and fall like one of the princes.

I'm predicting the second death for humanity and the first death for angels will be the finish for death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and all who don't have the additional spiritual life Jesus has to offer will be gone.

The thread is new, and not overly long. You should read it before hijacking it. Maybe start your own thread.

 

[Ps82]

Angels experience "the first death for angels" in/by experiencing the second death? That kind of makes it sound like angels shall not die LIKE MEN, since men had already died once, before the second death.

Matthew 25:41 says: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

If "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" is the lake of fire, and if the lake of fire is the second death, it seems strange to call the devil and his angels' being cast into the second death, "the first death for angels".

Hello again 7djengo7. You have noted good verses and have good questions. Let me see if I can give one succinct answer to all.

Men can die two deaths. I'm not saying all men die two deaths for Christ has given his followers the Spirit which holds them until eternally here after life. We believers go to the place he has prepared for us and we wait and wait in new bodies with robes of white as the saints for all things to be finished.

BUT, my deductions and opinions, there are men who will go to the place of torment, I consider hell, where they wait and wait for final judgement of their second death.

Now, all this time Satan is alive roaming the earth and going and coming from before God. He has not died. His most important change is that his status has been lowered and he has been commanded to partake of the cursed elements of the ground for the rest of his life. Moses did not write forever and forever eternally ... but mentioned just for the rest of his time left. Now, I know a lot of important and smart people will disagree with my conclusion about Satan ... and that's okay, for my trust in God is for my salvation not on trust in Satan's demise. I'm just sharing with you what I think I see in scripture. Seek for yourself.

Now, when Jesus returns the beast and the false prophet are the first to go into the lake of fire. After Jesus reigns for 1,000 years as king on earth Satan is released from his hell- I'm assuming his being bound in the pit/abyss, and then men and angels will rebel against God one last time....... at that time God's wrath will come and all will be judged and those men whose names are not found in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his angels. This will be the first death for Satan and his angels ... but a second for humanity.

Now I'm still studying about all the places/realms where God can place created beings so this may seem like some disjointed ideas ... but I do love to seek answers.

The big question: What makes up the second death?
Some say Rev. 14:9-11 may describe eternal suffering ... but is it referring to the Lake of Fire???? As far as I can tell Chapter 14 is only talking about when Christ returns and the resulted suffering among humanity who took 'the mark' will have to face. Even then verse 11 simply says "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever;" then adds men have no rest day and night. Is this the Lake of Fire? Is it the abyss/hell? I think its hell at this time. At some point hell will give up the dead in it. I think that will be the time of the Lake of Fire after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Only the beast and the false prophet go into the Lake of Fire before that at Christ's return. Satan is finally put in the pit/abyss.

Now read Rev. 20:11-15 This is what I suggest: Books are opened. The dead people were judged out of those things written within. The sea [of living humanity] gave up the dead [those lost] and they were judged. Then death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. [I assume this hell is the realm of torment day and night where the lost are stored.] This casting of hell with the lost in it makes the second death for humanity.

So what about Satan? Rev. 20:10 And the devil ... was cast into the Lake of Fire ... where the beast and false prophet [already] are, and [???] shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What is the missing noun or pronoun? He, Satan, shall be tormented eternally? They [three] shall be tormented eternally? or All of them in the Lake of Fire shall be tormented forever. ??? Right now I'm prone to suggest it will be Satan.

I have a reason to think this but that is another long topic for perhaps another time and thread.

SO SORRY. I've never been able to give a short reply...

 

[Ps82]

The thread is new, and not overly long. You should read it before hijacking it. Maybe start your own thread.

Sorry. I did think I was on topic ... considering posters were talking about the resurrection and the state to which people would be raised. Several referred to the end times. People will be raised to either eternal life or to go to the Lake of fire along with the beast, false prophet, and Satan.

I also apologize that my posts always seem to be long. I just have a hard time leaving out important details. Have a nice day Derf.

 

[Stripe]

Actually, in this case, I meant what I said.

@Stripe sent me a link, was hoping he would send it to me, or maybe he can post it here, that shows that everyone's genealogy can be traced to Abraham.

Yes, Noah too, but particularly Abraham in this case.

Sorry. I was inconvenienced.

I died of birdflu.

Back now.

Everyone is descended from Abraham, just as everyone is descended from anyone who lived long enough ago (and had kids).

"Long enough" is probably about 1,500 years. It would be an interesting math study.

There would be outliers, but tiny percentages.

This is merely a numbers game. You have two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on. But this ancestral expansion is not borne back ceaselessly into the past. If it were, your family tree when Charlemagne was Le Grand Fromage would harbour more than a billion ancestors – more people than were alive then.