The real book on Christianity.

[serpentdove]

[We root out paganism by studying God's word (2 Ti 3:16). oly:] "Christianity is not studying God's word."

:yawn: Christians study God's word (1 Pe 2:2). oly:

 

[jamie]

Why does the list not include steeples which are stylized obelisks and identify the building as being for Sunday keepers?

 

[Mickiel]

I rarely suggest books, but I highly suggest " Pagan Christianity", by Frank Viola and George Barna, a stunning read and very informative.

 

[Mickiel]

One reason why some Christians don't want to remember the past of their religion, is because of the horrors involved in that past. So they have torn themselves from their own evolution , as if they were never Catholic in their history. I mean, its kind of comical, a religion that thinks it can erase pages of history at its call and whim. Like trying to remove a family member from the photo album, just because you don't like how they look now.

This is one thing they are trying to divorce themselves from;

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm

 

[serpentdove]

"One reason why some Christians don't want to remember the past of their religion..."

:yawn: Proof please (Eph 4:14). each: God is setting history up linger: to repeat itself (Re 18:4). opcorn:

"...[T]hey have torn themselves from their own evolution, as if they were never Catholic in their history."

We noticed the murder of 66 million people.

"I mean, its kind of comical, a religion that thinks it can erase pages of history..."

linger: They gave a good college effort. :burnlib:

"...Like trying to remove a family member from the photo album..."

Mk 3:33

"...just because you don't like how they look now."

Same ol' same ol' (Re 17:5).

"This is one thing they are trying to divorce themselves from..."

:thumb: I'll shake Ezra's hand when I get the heaven (Ezra 10:1–16). :straight: Being the bride comes with great responsibility (Esth 4:13).

 

[Mickiel]

For over 700 years Christians tortured and killed people, all in the name of God;


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cullen-murphy/10-questions-about-the-inquisition_b_1224406.html

 

[brewmama]

The real book on holy days is that they have been done away with. They are Old Covenant addiction.

You're wrong about a lot.
Specifically on this:

"The second reference to Pentecost is found in 1 Corinthians, where Paul says: "I will stay in Ephesus until Pentecost, for a wide door for effective work has been opened to me" (1 Cor 16:8-9). This is a surprising time reference, since both the Ephesian and Corinthian churches were predominantly Gentile. Pentecost was not connected to any of the pagan feasts of the Roman and Greek society. Paul could hardly have used "Pentecost" as a time reference unless the feast was known in Gentile Christian churches."

 

[brewmama]

I rarely suggest books, but I highly suggest " Pagan Christianity", by Frank Viola and George Barna, a stunning read and very informative.

You should not be so gullible...

"While Viola and Barna make profound points about some church practices, their church history leaves a lot to be desired. Their “analysis” is a mishmash of outdated secondary sources, out-of-context quotations, unsupported hypotheses, and personal prejudices. Even worse, on those occasions where legitimate experts on the field are cited (i.e., Dom Gregory Dix, Paul F. Bradshaw, Alexander Schmeman) their views are taken so out of context as to have them seemingly ally with the authors when in fact their views are quite the opposite. But no pastors were able to tell me that. I had to do my own research. Sadly, I don’t think most folks who read this book will do the same, nor do many know how."

"Unfortunately, it set me on the wrong path, but my studies in church history set me straight (largely due to the fact that my wife is earning an M.A. in Theology, so good church history books are abundant in our house)."
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/02/emerging-from-emergent-church-evangelicalism

 

[Mickiel]

You should not be so gullible...

"While Viola and Barna make profound points about some church practices, their church history leaves a lot to be desired. Their “analysis” is a mishmash of outdated secondary sources, out-of-context quotations, unsupported hypotheses, and personal prejudices. Even worse, on those occasions where legitimate experts on the field are cited (i.e., Dom Gregory Dix, Paul F. Bradshaw, Alexander Schmeman) their views are taken so out of context as to have them seemingly ally with the authors when in fact their views are quite the opposite. But no pastors were able to tell me that. I had to do my own research. Sadly, I don’t think most folks who read this book will do the same, nor do many know how."

"Unfortunately, it set me on the wrong path, but my studies in church history set me straight (largely due to the fact that my wife is earning an M.A. in Theology, so good church history books are abundant in our house)."
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/02/emerging-from-emergent-church-evangelicalism

Well to each their own path; I wish you well on your path.

In my view, the book by Viola is stunning and credible! I am amazed that a Christian book publisher even did his work; because most Christians feel as if they should be immune to criticism and true historical evaluation. Their mentality is so set in self righteousness, that them being wrong about anything is literally impossible in their conscious minds. Which shows you how deep the damage religion can do to a believer.

 

[brewmama]

Well to each their own path; I wish you well on your path.

In my view, the book by Viola is stunning and credible! I am amazed that a Christian book publisher even did his work; because most Christians feel as if they should be immune to criticism and true historical evaluation. Their mentality is so set in self righteousness, that them being wrong about anything is literally impossible in their conscious minds. Which shows you how deep the damage religion can do to a believer.

So you're going to blame the correction of historical errors committed by your guys as due to self righteousness and the "impossibility of their conscious minds" to see anything wrong??!!

LOL! Speak for yourself, and read an ACTUAL history book!

 

[Mickiel]

So you're going to blame the correction of historical errors committed by your guys as due to self righteousness and the "impossibility of their conscious minds" to see anything wrong??!!

LOL! Speak for yourself, and read an ACTUAL history book!

Well I have read many more than one book on the subject, but Viola's is the only one I will refer; because its worth the reference.

This book also confirms the true history of Christianity; it was the mother of Catholicism;

http://history-world.org/christianity.htm

 

[brewmama]

Well I have read many more than one book on the subject, but Viola's is the only one I will refer; because its worth the reference.

This book also confirms the true history of Christianity; it was the mother of Catholicism;

http://history-world.org/christianity.htm

Well, I don't know that particular source, but he is wrong on some things, particularly:

"The early church had no clergy; it had people who performed specific functions--leading worship, preaching, collecting offerings, and feeding and clothing the poor among them. But as centuries passed, the three functions of bishop, elder (priest), and deacon became arranged in a hierarchy."

What do you think "performed specific functions" means? And they were anointed thus by the Apostles, by the laying on of hands.

 

[brewmama]

And your source says this:
"Much later, probably in the 3rd or 4th century, the word church came into use to denote the specific kind of assembly that the believers composed."

but St Paul says this: " "These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:14,15, KJV).

 

[Mickiel]

And your source says this:
"Much later, probably in the 3rd or 4th century, the word church came into use to denote the specific kind of assembly that the believers composed."

but St Paul says this: " "These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:14,15, KJV).

I disagree with you, Paul was not talking about a building, at that time they did not use buildings to gather in, they gathered in different homes. By " House of God", he meant just what he said, " a church of the living God", or a living people. Church was not used to describe the people until much later.

Of course, you can show me the scriptures if you disagree.

 

[Mickiel]

Well, I don't know that particular source, but he is wrong on some things, particularly:

"The early church had no clergy; it had people who performed specific functions--leading worship, preaching, collecting offerings, and feeding and clothing the poor among them. But as centuries passed, the three functions of bishop, elder (priest), and deacon became arranged in a hierarchy."

What do you think "performed specific functions" means? And they were anointed thus by the Apostles, by the laying on of hands.

There was no clergy in the New Testament church, and there really were no pastors until much later. The term " Pastor", appears only once in the entire New Testament, in Eph. 4:11. Good grief, one verse to prove an office; that is scant evidence in my view.

 

[Mickiel]

The truth about your church history may be hard on you, if you choose to look back at it. Yet it may reveal WHY you are doing the things you are doing; or WHY you are practicing the things you practice.

Will you be brave and take a serious look?

Research Christmas and Easter on your own; see what you find. I started to post some links; but just search; if you dare.

 

[brewmama]

There was no clergy in the New Testament church, and there really were no pastors until much later. The term " Pastor", appears only once in the entire New Testament, in Eph. 4:11. Good grief, one verse to prove an office; that is scant evidence in my view.

You must be joking, you have offered no proof at all to say otherwise. I see you must be Jehovah's Witness or something of the sort...I know what you're arguments are and they don't bear much credibility.


Peace to you!

 

[Mickiel]

You must be joking, you have offered no proof at all to say otherwise. I see you must be Jehovah's Witness or something of the sort...I know what you're arguments are and they don't bear much credibility.


Peace to you!

I offered the entire New Testament as proof, there are no scriptures that support your clergy; if you think so, produce them. Eph. 4:11 is the only one.

And I am not Jehovah's Witness or any other religion; I am not part of any group; I walk alone in my belief. I don't need a religion, and don't want one.

 

[brewmama]

1 Tim 5: 17-19

"Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.f
18
For the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing,” and, “A worker deserves his pay.”g
19
Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses."

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.

Titus 1: 5-8 For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,

e on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.
7
For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain,
8
but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled,

 

[Mickiel]

1 Tim 5: 17-19

"Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.f
18
For the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing,” and, “A worker deserves his pay.”g
19
Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses."

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.

Titus 1: 5-8 For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,

e on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.
7
For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain,
8
but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled,

Come now, none of these support a clergy. Come, lets have the scriptures; you got the whole New Testament, is that all you got?