Persistent ain't he, Saint John?
The Preterists and Matthew 24:34
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Persistent ain't he, Saint John?
More like incessant.
Certainly that!
Be careful, brother ko of Ste...Craigie Tet. might blindside you with a quote from his "man made" bible, since God obviously has a "God made" publishing house in the third heaven, which publishes a "God made" bible ...............
Or, he might surprise you, with another "Darby" stumper.
So says another follower of John Nelson Darby.
Not from planet earth.
As long as you're on planet earth, you won't see the kingdom.
The kingdom is not of this world.
If you're in the kingdom, you can see and observe many things.
As I said earlier, the fact that not one stone was left standing upon another at the temple completely destroys your stupid theory.
Interplanner
Well-known member
"Not by things observed" means no signs, or date setting. It has come in Christ. The power (over humans) is not like state authority; it is the compelling power of grace. The fact that it is not from this world is not a spacial declaration, but is about the origin of its authority.
I said nowhere in the NT does Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or any other NT writer even hint of a future earthly kingdom.
So what do you do, you quote OT verses.
The NT verses that you did quote don't even hint that the kingdom is on planet earth.
No, I'm the one who says all OT prophecies have been fulfilled.
Don't make me laugh steko. You have to twist verses into a pretzel to make the false teachings of Darby fit the Bible.
You can't give one verse in the NT that says anything about a future kingdom on planet earth, a third temple, the Jews coming back to the Middle East, etc.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I'm not a preterist as the label goes, but rather a historian first and then a theologian. The phrase about the worst time ever is there because of its roots in Daniel, and it was about Israel. Dan 9's vision is encased in a prayer and answer about what was to become of Israel. Mt24A (before v29) is likewise. After v29 there is a marked opening onto the worldwide scene.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Tetelestai is right. To be a bit more exact, the ordinary language passages that have any length about the 2nd coming do not mention Israel. I'm not counting the Rev, which is too slippery to pin down. The longest I know of is 2 Pet 3. The next might be Rom 8, but Rom 2 about the day of judgement is fairly long as well, mentioning not Israel per se but the fact that God's judgement is not different for Jews as for non-Jewish people.
Where does it say the location of the throne?
Also, how is David't Tent rebuilt? Where is David's Tent going to be in your Futurism?
You do know that David's Tent was different from Moses' Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple?
Interplanner
Well-known member
The raised fallen tent of David is the fact of faith among many of the nations. Acts 15.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
As usual you leave out this part of the passage in "bold":
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (Jn.18:36).
At the time He said that His kingdom was not of the world. But He does not say that it will never be of this world.
From the very beginning the throne of David and the Davidic kingdom were both earthly in nature, as witnessed by the following words:
"Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly" (1 Ki. 2:12).
Solomon sat upon the throne of David on the earth and his kingdom which was established was one which was earthly. Now let us look at the Lord's promises made to David in regard to that throne and kingdom:
"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).
Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:
"I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).
According to the preterists the LORD did lie to David because the kingdom is no longer an earthly kingdom. According to the preterists the LORD altered His promise concerning the kingdom despite the fact that He said that He would not alter it.
James said the following in Acts 15
(Acts 15: 15-16) The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
The reason James quoted Amos was to show that Amos' prophecy was being fulfilled right before their eyes.
A study of David's tent tells us that David's tent stood for 40 years all while Moses' tabernacle stood at the same time. However, the Ark of the Covenant (God's presence) was in David's Tent, not Moses' Tabernacle.
The same thing happened from 30AD - 70AD. David's Tent stood while the Second Temple stood at the same time.
Dispensationalists deny that Amos's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century despite James making it clear that the prophecy was.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
This prophecy has never been fulfilled so it's fulfillment remains in the future:
"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).
If you think that this prophecy has already been fulfilled then please tell us when it happened.
Nor did He say that it would one day be of this world.
(Isaiah 64:8 KJV) But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Using your twisted logic in the above verse, it would be like saying that in the future the Lord will not be our father, we won't be the clay, and He won't be the potter.
Yes, I know the original throne was on planet earth.
However, the throne and everything else about the Old Covenant were a shadow of what was to come.
And the temple Solomon built was a shadow and a copy of what was in Heaven.
(Heb 8:5) They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.....
Notice it says "copy and shadow"
If it was just a copy, then I could see your point. However it specifically says "copy and shadow".
Do you know what a "shadow" is?
Again, you point to the "copy and shadow", but ignore the real thing.
Nope
The earthly throne and kingdom were a shadow of what was to come.
He didn't. He kept the promise.
It is you who doesn't understand the difference between a "copy and shadow" and the real thing.
You think Jesus is going to reign in a "copy and shadow" instead of reigning in the real thing.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
James made it plain that the Lord's raising up of David's fallen tent will happen in the future:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" (Acts 15:16).
The Greek word translated "I will return" is in the future tense, as is the Greek word translated "will build again."
But you have the action happening in the present tense:
So you are now saying that the Lord Jesus had returned by the time of the events of Acts 15!
Your ideas are goofy and they are getting even more strange.
You have lost touch with reality.
(Heb 9:24) For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
Again, we see that Christ Jesus entered the real true sanctuary that wasn't made with human hands.
Yet, you have Christ Jesus coming back and sitting on a man made throne in a man made temple.
Why didn't Jesus enter the sanctuary in Jerusalem (the copy) that was made with human hands after His death?
Jerry, you can't be this dense
James was quoting Amos.
Amos prophesied in the future tense.
How the heck was James supposed to quote Amos without it sounding like the future tense?
It's mind boggling to me how you Dispensationalists can't understand that when NT writers quoted the OT it was to show that the prophecies were being fulfilled. Yet you guys think the NT writers quoted OT prophecies to re-prophesise.