I agree!
The Preterists and Matthew 24:34
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I agree!
Yeah, but then he has the Body in that Earthly kingdom.
All these years supposedly "Mid-Acts" and the poor guy still doesn't understand why the mystery to begin with...
I'm simply agreeing that the prophecied Davidic Messianic Kingdom is yet future as opposed to the amillennial/preterist position that GOD suddenly changes and speaks metaphorically when it comes to Kingdom prophecy.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The reason people like me believe that the BOC will return to the earth with the Lord Jesus when He sets up His kingdom is because what is said here:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
This passage is speaking of being in the "presence" of the Lord Jesus when those in the BOC meets Him in the air and therefore when it speaks of those in the BOC being with Him for ever it is His "presence" which is in view.
But according to your view those in the BOC will no longer be in His presence when He returns to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom.
You talk big about your knowledge of the mystery but you never say what part of the mystery says that those in the BOC will NOT be in the presence of the Lord from the time of the rapture onward.
You just make things up out of thin air in your failed attempt to discredit me.
Luke 21 proves you wrong.
(Luke 21:21) Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
As we see above, it was not worldwide, it only pertained to Jerusalem and the area surrounding Jerusalem.
If it was worldwide (your claim), then why did Jesus only warn those in Judea to flee to the mountains, and why did Jesus tell those in the county not to enter Jerusalem?
You're not very bright.
As opposed to you, who only tries to fit the false teachings of John Nelson Darby into the Bible.
Yes.
Nowhere in the NT does Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or any other NT writer even hint of a future earthly kingdom.
You have to take OT passages out of context in order to defend your false claim.
Thanks. Still learning. Any site you recommend on this topic?
Coming from you; that's a compliment.
Aaron the Tall
Member
I can just as easily make the claim that you are reading a condition into that verse.
Tell me, do you see a condition in the following verses?:
"Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes." (Mt 24:45,46)
The message is this: the master is returning and you will be blessed if you are doing what he desires when he returns.
That's the same implication in Mark 1:15. The Kingdom is at hand - it is coming - so you better be ready for it by repenting and believing.
The repenting and believing are not given as a condition of the Kingdom coming any more than obeying the master was a condition of the master returning.
There are no conditions because Jesus said the time was fulfilled. The time was set in stone.
iamaberean
New member
Christians are not the only ones who understand the Old Testament. We can learn a lot from the Jews.
For example:
The Jews believe in only one God and they have shown me the scriptures that support it.
They say there are many gods but only one Jehovah. To prove that we just the search the bible for 'LORD' and 'God' which is how 'Jehovah', in the old testament, is written because they would not say or print His Holy name. There are 1479 verses of 'LORD God' or 'LORD your God" etc. Why is that important, because the word 'Elohim' in Hebrew can be used as plural, but never when 'LORD' is used with 'Elohim'.
I have always believed in only One God, but the Jewish understanding confirms it without a doubt.
When something is right, it can be confirmed with scripture.
Aaron the Tall
Member
I have said no such thing. What I said was the Matt 13 harvest was the gathering of "true fruit" into the Kingdom, and the gathering of "bad fruit" out of the Kingdom. As you just said, the gospel was bearing fruit throughout the kosmos. There you go - a "world wide" harvest of good fruit. The judgement was against unbelieving Jews. Question: were there any Jews living outside Israel during 70 AD?
As one scholar notes: "as we turn over the pages to the Acts and Epistles we at once become aware of Jews in every part of the world to which Christian missionaries traveled."
The judgement was upon ALL Jews throughout the known world - not just those living in Jerusalem. Does that end your critique that I think kosmos only meant Israel?
What things would they be fearing that were yet to come, if these signs occur at the end of the great tribulation?
So you think the stars will literally fall from heaven? Or perhaps that is cataclysmic language to describe something devastating since stars can't literally fall from heaven.
The thing is, there is Biblical precedence for using that language in a non-literal way to describe terrible judgement.
"For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; the sun will be dark when it rises, and the moon will not shed its light...therefore I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken from its place..." (Isaiah 13:10, 13 - FULFILLED in 539 when the Medes conquered Babylon.)
Actually, Jesus is quite explicit as to why he compares his coming to the flood of Noah - and it is not because he is making a point about the scope of the judgement. Jesus says that just as in the days of Noah, people will be going about their normal routine lives, oblivious to any impending judgement, and then it will come suddenly upon them. That is the only explicit similarity drawn.
Tell me, will people be going about their lives in a routine way during the great tribulation and the tumultuous times that will just precede Jesus' coming?
Aaron the Tall
Member
I can recommend a book you can read online for free. The author spoke at my previous church a few times. It helped cement my beliefs in the direction they were heading - and answered some questions I had.
http://www.raptureless.com/book/?read=welcome
musterion
Well-known member
Correct me if I missed it but I don't recall you commenting on the conditional mood of Matthew 24's "this generation" passage, or the particle an found therein. Tet simply denies it because he can't get it to compute. Would you mind? If you did reply to it, please point me to the post. Thank you...
STATEMENT: "This generation shall not pass"
CONDITION: : "till all these things be fulfilled" (all these things are the things Jesus said from verses 2- 33)
There is no "secret conditional mood" that you claim.
You, nor any other Dispensationalist can explain Matt 24:34, which is why you, STP, and Jerry have all your really bad excuses.
musterion - secret conditional mood
STP - "all these things" only means verse 2
Jerry Shugart - "generation" means family
You're both wrong.
Jesus doesn't bring anybody back to planet earth with Him because Jesus isn't coming back to planet earth.
The kingdom isn't of this world.
You have Jesus coming back to planet earth with a certain group of people to rule with Jesus over a different group of people.
He has Jesus coming back to planet earth to rule over a certain group of people, but leaving a different group of people behind in heaven.
Then there's STP. STP has three groups of people in three different places.
You Darby followers are really messed up.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
First of all, you have given absolutely no evidence that the world wide harvest of Matthew was limited to ALL Jews throughout the known world. The Lord Jesus made no such distinction, saying the following:
"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil" (Mt.13:41).
His words could not be any plainer but despite that fact you say that it was not "everything" that causes sin which was weeded out but only the unbelieving Jews. And according to you it was not "all" who do evil but instead only the unbelieving Jews who do evil.
Secondly, if unbelieving Jews all over the known world in 70 AD were taken out suddenly then certainly such an event would have been recorded in history. But nothing like that ever happened so your explanation is without merit.
You remain stuck with no explanation for the Lord Jesus' words concerning a world wide harvest which will happen at the end of the age.
First of all, the signs in the sky will not happen at the end of the great tribulation but instead they will happen after the great tribulation is over.
Here is a description of the same exact thing seen at Luke 21:25-26, which will happen after the great tribulation is over:
"There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth...And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev.6:12-17).
This is describing a world wide event and not just events concerning unbelieving Jews. And remember, this describes events which will happen after the great tribulation is over. Nothing like that happened after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
The stars will appear to fall from heaven. But in two different instances we see men reacting in a negative way to what they will see. So there is no evidence that even hints that this is merely "cataclysmic language," as you suppose.
You also failed to address the use of the word oikoumene in the following passage:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (oikoumene)" (Lk.21:25-26).
Again, well known preterist Gary DeMar said the following about the word oikoumene:
"The case can be made that 'oikoumene' is used exclusively for the geographical area generally limited to the Roman empire of the first-century and the territories immediately adjacent which were known and accessible to first-century travelers. When first-century Christians read the word 'oikoumene,' they thought of what they knew of their world" [emphasis mine] (Gary DeMar, "The Gospel Preached to All the World, Part 3 of 4; The Preterist Archive).
There was never a judgment which came upon what the Christians knew as their world after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And by the Lord Jesus' own words it is certain beyond any doubt that the following never happened in the first century:
"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:34-35).
Israel has been the victims of many attempts to destroy that nation and the rest of the world goes about their normal routines. So when the great tribulation finally comes there is no reason to suppose that normal life in the rest of the world will not continue. It will not be until the signs will appear in the sky that mankind will know that the unbelievers are in serious trouble. Then the Lord Jesus will be seen coming in the clouds and then a world wide judgment will happen. That is the reason why He compares the world wide harvest which will happen at the end of the age to the great flood which "took them all away":
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt.24:37-39).
This in "bold" is an explicit similarity between the harvest that will happen at the end of the age and the great flood:
"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).
The things which the Lord Jesus describes which will happen after the great tribulation is over bears absolutely no resemblance to anything that happened after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.