Cross Reference
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There will be Temple in Jerusalem. Presently, there is nothing in Rome that remotely speaks of the Church of Jesus Christ.
ECT The Pregnant Woman and the Dragon
- Thread starter 6days
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There will be Temple in Jerusalem. Presently, there is nothing in Rome that remotely speaks of the Church of Jesus Christ.
oatmeal
Well-known member
In order for someone to draw a conclusion, we need to read it.
Revelation 12:1-17 KJV
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The basics of the record parallel the record of the redeemer Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary.
The the child was born, Satan wanted him dead, they escaped.
Mary was persecuted as foretold by Simon the elderly man in the temple.
However, there is a likewise, figurative language there that presently would be difficult to pinpoint as to its meaning.
Third of the stars is the third of the angels that followed Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, the dragon, that old serpent, it is a past event
The book of Revelation being a vision that John participated in, like some OT books, the visions are difficult to ascertain as to their precise meaning.
Which is God's decision as to these matters.
We have plenty to do today. Matthew 6:34
You're not familiar with the Hebrew Bible are you?
And he dreamed yet another dream and told it his brethren and said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." (Joseph)
And he told it to his father and to his brethren and his father rebuked him and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
And he told it to his father and to his brethren and his father rebuked him and said unto him, "What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?"
Joseph's father was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel.
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Agree with those who see the woman as Israel, which hearkens back to,
Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
The Messiah, Jesus Christ, was a Jew, of the fullness of the blessings to the world to come from the Abrahamic covenant and through Israel. Those saying the woman is the church flies in the face of the fact the church does not give birth to Christ or give birth to itself. Also, the tribulation is the "time of Jacob's trouble," characterized by birth pangs here and elsewhere. Mary doesn't fit, either, as fleeing into the wilderness the last half of the tribulation an absurdity, Mary long with God now. (See Matthew 24:16+ for a like description of Judea fleeing during the tribulation.)
As to the man child, this is more mysterious, more an object of opinions among even those most learned. A conventional explanation has been the passage in Revelation 12 is the birth of Jesus Christ account, Herod killing babies, then His subsequent ascension to heaven. I've never been satisfied with this, from the outset of being a Christian many years ago, for various reasons, now believe the man child is also referenced in the Thyatira church, ruling with Christ with a rod of iron,
Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
The man child could very well be the "repentant wing" of the Thyatira tribulation church, harvested from earth. Others have thought the 144,000 the man child, but this neither fits with the promise of part of Thyatira expressly mentioned as a ruling "rod of iron" body that repents, because the 144,000 are pure virgins and sealed, going into the tribulation, not needing to repent from an apostate church or evil.
Just some thoughts, would not claim to have a lock on the man child, and nobody should, this or any scripture Spirit filled have had difficulty with down the ages. (Too many online don't say "in my opinion" or "maybe" in some way, rather pretend to have a lock on truth. This is one of the red flags of somebody very arrogant, even most often misleading, to ignore.)
Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
The Messiah, Jesus Christ, was a Jew, of the fullness of the blessings to the world to come from the Abrahamic covenant and through Israel. Those saying the woman is the church flies in the face of the fact the church does not give birth to Christ or give birth to itself. Also, the tribulation is the "time of Jacob's trouble," characterized by birth pangs here and elsewhere. Mary doesn't fit, either, as fleeing into the wilderness the last half of the tribulation an absurdity, Mary long with God now. (See Matthew 24:16+ for a like description of Judea fleeing during the tribulation.)
As to the man child, this is more mysterious, more an object of opinions among even those most learned. A conventional explanation has been the passage in Revelation 12 is the birth of Jesus Christ account, Herod killing babies, then His subsequent ascension to heaven. I've never been satisfied with this, from the outset of being a Christian many years ago, for various reasons, now believe the man child is also referenced in the Thyatira church, ruling with Christ with a rod of iron,
Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
The man child could very well be the "repentant wing" of the Thyatira tribulation church, harvested from earth. Others have thought the 144,000 the man child, but this neither fits with the promise of part of Thyatira expressly mentioned as a ruling "rod of iron" body that repents, because the 144,000 are pure virgins and sealed, going into the tribulation, not needing to repent from an apostate church or evil.
Just some thoughts, would not claim to have a lock on the man child, and nobody should, this or any scripture Spirit filled have had difficulty with down the ages. (Too many online don't say "in my opinion" or "maybe" in some way, rather pretend to have a lock on truth. This is one of the red flags of somebody very arrogant, even most often misleading, to ignore.)
revpete
New member
Hummm..... Bound to be a lot of different takes on this one. Here goes.... The woman is Israel so identified because of the crown of twelve stars. The nation of Israel gives birth to The Messiah. The dragon symbolises satan who motivated Herod to try and kill him when He was a helpless baby. The Stars cast to earth may be the rogue angels that followed satan and were cast out with him. This is of course not a dogmatic interpretation as there will always be differences on this one. 
Pete
Pete
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Your take is actually shared by many fine Bible scholars, down the ages. Over the years, I've had real problems with this explanation for some of the details, the harpazo snatching of the man child a biggie and the woman very much a part of the apocalypse and fleeing, neither any indication in scripture Mary cried and travailed greatly, giving birth to Christ, nor was Christ immediately taken to heaven, "harpazo" snatched from danger, but grew to be an adult man, crucified, rising from the dead, then a rather gentle taking up into the clouds, 40 days later. The whole Revelation scene seems out of place to be a recount of the first coming, and why do this here, such simple, basic events found in the other gospel accounts? I've also asked why this would be in Revelation 12, a recount of the birth of Jesus Christ, among the things to happen "hereafter" Revelation chapter 4. But I don't know, and you point out a time honored interpretation.
The woman is Zion of above. Jesus came out of Gods envisionment of Her,
and we also are Her children, the children of that Heavenly City--
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Jesus is the man child, the first son of Her.
The tail of the dragon is the false prophets of the dragon which harlot also stood in the past to destroy the first son Jesus, but which had continued throughout the centuries trying to destroy Her children.
However when the dragon sees her time is short then it will become very furious because the prophets of God expose her for what she is and she gets thrust out of the company of the true saints who suddenly become very strong and has Zions children for the mill.
However the dragon can only find those "believers"who are not worthy --the 5th trumpet.
Isa 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
LA
Cross Reference
New member
Hummm..... Bound to be a lot of different takes on this one. Here goes.... The woman is Israel so identified because of the crown of twelve stars. The nation of Israel gives birth to The Messiah. The dragon symbolises satan who motivated Herod to try and kill him when He was a helpless baby. The Stars cast to earth may be the rogue angels that followed satan and were cast out with him. This is of course not a dogmatic interpretation as there will always be differences on this one.
Pete
Now, try explaining away 2000 plus yrs before the woman gives birth to the man child in the middle of the tribulation who is then IMMEDIATELY caught away. Go for it.
Cross Reference
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Was Jesus immediately caught away? Seems He would have to have been, wouldn't it?.
Any preacher of worth preaches with conviction that which he understands is the truth.
Jesus did the same.
Please do not reject (or accept) truth on your judgment of their manner of delivery lest you miss the truth spoken.
Just do not spiritually look at men.
LA
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
I've read detailed accounts of this interpretation. It gets down to slicing and dicing of a long period of time, parentheses very necessary one must assume are there in scripture. As mentioned, this traditional view has huge problems, as you mention, the stage setting of Revelation 12, at the very least, the middle of the tribulation!
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
I can not make the highlighted verse to mean anyone but Jesus.
LA
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
I do look first at exactly what is said, but have also found it true a certain type of arrogant and heavy handed person you find online has never once been faithful that I've seen. Not once, this my experience. Also, great Spirit filled men of God I've listened to and read from, for many years, have none had such arrogance, not a one claiming any lease on complex truths there have been no exact agreement on, ever. As a matter of fact, people who use words like it's some exclusive lock on "truth" they have, "proof" they have: this always seems to be the first sign of the garbage to follow. There's also the fact that those who are misleading are unreliable to read. If you see clear error, time and again, often involving simple, clear doctrine, or an evil, mean spirit, I know I can't trust much of anything that person has to say, don't see why anybody should.
Ok so you are examining what they have said.
The smooth talkers who lie, can appear to be speaking the truth too.
LA
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Sure! Always look at what's said, always give the benefit of the doubt for awhile, as I'm looking for truth, like all of us truly seeking, and there are honorable disagreements. But if you have eyes to see, and the Spirit reveals somebody to you who's spiritually deceiving or ignorant, and regardless being a smooth talker, that person winds up in the "consider the source" category to me. It's like a liar: what can you take their word on, moving forward?
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
Would have to second that! Though I do pray you find yourself a little more reliable than some of the horrible riffraff online, who argue things like whether Jesus is Zeus, or whether chlorinated water washes away sins, or how "Yashuwashua" came to us, to dramatically emphasize how much we need large print Torahs and New Testaments with funny apostle names. I've seen things on the web I'd been spared of my entire Christian life, before.
Cross Reference
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Jesus wasn't caught up. He died on a cross 3 1/2 after being born. Don't your silly games with this, OK? Read to converse and learn. There is much more in those two chapters that you are willfully ignoring just to be right..