The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[beloved57]

Musing scriptures that clearly set forth the specific intention and objects of Christ death !

Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Now from this passage it is clear that the death of Christ has specific beneficiaries. Does paul tell us specifically in this passage who Christ Loved and gave Himself up for vs 25 cp Jn 13:1

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Now according to paul in this passage, why did Christ give himself for the church ?

So what conditioned must have the church been in, for Christ to give himself for her.

Was paul in this passage making Salvation possible through Christ death or was He making it actual through Christ death ?

 

[beloved57]

more on Eph 5:25-27

Lets look more closely at the Love of Christ in this passage, who is it that he Loves ? Is it not His Church, and is that not compared to that of a Husband and wife ? Now to say that Christ loved all people without exception the same and equally, His wife as well as those who are not His wife or bride, this seems to lessen His Love for the Church, His Bride, what greater expression of love is it than for one to lay down his life for those he loved Jn 15:13, so if Christ died for all without exception, then He loved all without exception in the same manner, which is paramount to a Husband saying to His Special Bride, yes I love you my dearest, but no more than I love any other women. Would the Special Bride feel special ? Was it not a difference of affection towards Rachel by Jacob than towards Leah ? see Gen 29:18 & 29:31

Was not Israel's election by God a token of her special Love above others ? Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

I believe the Love that Christ has for His Church, those He died for, His Bride, is comparatively speaking like hating those who was not His Bride, for not all without exception are the Chosen Bride of Christ.

Those whom the Father hath given [in marriage] His Son are the ones that come to Him as His Bride Jn 6:37

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Just as God brought Adam His Bride to Him [see Gen 2:22] which was eve, and because she had come out of him, which meant that she was first in him as one, so it is with Christ, the Last Adam, His Bride was first in Him as in Chosen in Him before the foundation [see Eph 1:4] and so God brings her to His Son in time [Jn 6:37], they will be attracted to Him and He to them because God chose them for one another for a marriage Purpose [Rev 19:7], Just as He chose Adam and Eve for a Marriage purpose, for this be a great Mystery Paul says in Eph 5:32. The account of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 was a type and picture of Christ and His Bride the Church, so this could be nothing but special and exclusive Love for the Church above all others, expressed in giving His Life for Her.

 

[beloved57]

Jn 10:15

Another scripture to think on as to the specific objects of Christ death is Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The word for is the greek word hyper and means:

in behalf of, for the sake of

2) over, beyond, more than

3) more, beyond, over

He lays down His Life in behalf of the Sheep.

So, who here does Jesus state He gives His Life for ? What condition must they [ the sheep] had been in, for it to be necessary for Him to His Life in their behalf ? Does Christ state anything about laying down His life for the goats ?

 

[beloved57]

What about 1 Jn 2:2 ?

1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know this scripture cannot mean every individual in the whole world has had their sins propitiated for by Christ, since the term itself means a appeasing or removal of God's wrath, hence no one should be under God's wrath as per Jn 3:36

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So its a careless mistake in bible study to take 1 Jn 2:2 " whole world" to mean every single individual without exception has God been propitiated for.

Even in 1 Jn 5:19

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Where the exact same expression is used, it would be foolish to understand it in a unlimited sense, for the we there which are believers, whom John identifies himself with, would be the exception.

Lets look at Rev 13:3,8

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Now this is the same words "Whole World" Does John mean to say that everyone in the whole world without exception followed or wondered at the beast ?

An exception is in vs 8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of

That was the exception as to who was not wondering after the beast. And vs 7 explains what John means by the whole world:

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yes, the whole world meant that all kindreds, and tongues and nations wondered after the beast, people throughout the whole world.

Thats what whole or all means, its the word holos and means all, whole, completely and its used more than 1200 times as throughout as in throughout the whole world, the beast will have His admirers..

Hence, 1 Jn 2:2 is meaning the same thing, that Christ is the propitiation for not only jewish believers, but for believers of all kindreds, tongues and nations, throughout the world..

 

[beloved57]

What about 1 Jn 2:2 ? cont

Now what about Rev 12:9,11

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Whole World does not mean every person without exception, for in vs 11 we see more than overcomer's:

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So again, the meaning is the same as it is in Rev 13:7

So the phrase the Whole World rarely if at anytime means everyone without exception, but rather, people from all over the world, or throughout the whole world.

You see in the early church it was a problem with gentiles being part of the Church, it was thought that salvation was only for ethnic jews, for even peter did not realize otherwise until Acts 10, so on the day of Pentecost, he had only Christ dying for ethnic jews on his mind.

And so even after God convinced him of the universality of salvation [ Acts 10:35], the problem did not just go away perhaps for a long time. So the Apostle John in His writings of the epistles wants to keep the problem in check and constantly let it be known that God's wrath has been appeased on behalf of men and women of every nation, the elect scattered throughout the whole world, and of all time.

Lets look at similarities between 1 jn 2 2 and His Gospel Jn 11:51-52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. or throughout the world..

John is certainly affirming the Limited atonement in this passage, and so with its similarities with 1 Jn 2:2 we can conclude John means the same thing in both passages 1 Jn 2:2 and Jn 11:51-52..

 

[beloved57]

His Death was a Propitiation for the sins of those He died for !

Let me please elaborate a little more on God sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, John writing to Jewish Believers 1 jn 4:10, for He was the apostle to the circumcision, stressed earlier that in the letter 1 jn 2 2 , that not only was Christ the propitiation for our sins [jewish converts] but for the sins of those throughout the world[gentile converts], for He is our Peace, because propitiation appeases the wrath of God for those Christ became a sin offering for and in behalf of.

So now we can understand John to be writing, that God sent His own Son into the World to be the Peace for our Sins, which is a effect or result of His being a propitiation sacrifice.

The Apostle Paul teaches the same blessed Truth as 1 Jn 2:2 and 4:10 in Eph 2:11-17



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Yes, Paul was as John establishing the Fact that Christ death was not just for jews but gentiles as well, and He made peace or propitiation for us as one New Man..

It must be understood why these labors were necessary, because under the OT under the Typical economy, the propitiation offerings and sacrifices, they were only for the nation of Israel, Abraham's Physical descendants, the circumcision, and only they benefited. So it was ingrained in the minds of even the saved [as Peter for a while] that the Salvation of the seed of Abraham was confined to that Nation and Abraham's physical children of that nation.

 

[beloved57]

His Death alone Sanctified those He died for !

We know that Christ could not have died for all men without exception, because all for whom He died, gave Himself for, He once and for all sanctified them.

Heb 10:9-10

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

All those Christ died for [ the offering of His body] He sanctified them by His death or His offering of Himself. Now if this be True, those whom are born sinners by nature., but yet Christ died for them, then legally they are sanctified once and for all. The word sanctified in the greek is the word hagiazo and means:

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

consecrate things to God

dedicate people to God

to purify

to cleanse externally

to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Also it is in the Perfect Tense which means:

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

So by one offering [His Death] in the past, those Christ died for have been permanently consecrated to God, freed from the guilt of sin.

Now can one be sanctified before they are born ? If one was sanctified by Christ death 2000 yrs ago, and they are born in 1945 as a sinner, can they still be sanctified by the Death of Christ ? Yes they can be sanctified before they are born, and yes they are sanctified while being born a sinner by nature. Case and example is Jeremiah Lets look at Jer 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah's being sanctified [by the offering of Christ] by God before he came forth out of the womb, and being appointed a prophet, did by no means exempt him from being born a sinner by nature, for all men are born sinners [Rom 5:12] yes even Jeremiah, but nevertheless He was in the Purpose of God already sanctified, set apart for a Purpose, and legally free from guilt. Was Jeremiah born a sinner and a enemy of God by Nature ? Yes, but was he born legally condemned by God for his sins ? No, legally he was not guilty and set apart for the Holy Purpose of God, as all men and women are for whom Christ died Rev 5:9-10

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

For being appointed a OT Prophet to God as Jeremiah is no more important to God as being appointed or made into a Kingdom of Priest unto God, both were for His own Glory and Praise !

So Christ could not have died for all the world without exception, because all without exception are not sanctified..

 

[beloved57]

Limited Atonement and Heb 2:8-10

Heb 2:8-10

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Many in man made religions of our day have hijacked this passage of scripture and forced upon it their own selfish understanding, in total disregard for context both immediate and overall subject wise, that is the overall subject of the purpose and accomplishments of the Death of Christ. Now lets consider this passage in its immediate context.

Jesus here is presented in His Mediatorial exaltation as the Life of His Body, the Church, and was made a little lower than the angels for [because] the suffering of death [ the death of obedience Rom 5:19b] now crowned with Glory and Honor.

Now in determining for whom He tasted death for, we must understand that a spiritual family existed in His Sonship, as the Son of God, just as it did in His Type Adam who was the Son of God by creation Lk 3:38

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

For the fleshly or earthly family existed in Adam and were made manifest by physical birth and are men! So these [In the Son of God] sustain a covenant relation with Christ as He is their Head, for it is written " He is head over all things to the church" Paul also writes " for there is one God, and One Mediator between God and Men. the Man Christ Jesus, who Gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time " So therefore He by the Grace of God tasted death for every man, for everyone of them, or each one of them, for [ because] it became Him " for whom are all things, in bringing many Sons to Glory, to make the captain or prince of their salvation perfect through suffering. For both He that sanctifieth[Christ] and they that are sanctified [His body] are all of one seed Gal 3:16, 29]; For which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren [even though by nature they are very sinful] So every man God the Father will bring to Glory is a Son in the Sonship of Christ, and they shall receive the Spirit of Adoption whereby he cries abba Father, and they are all the brethren of Christ [Rom 8:29b] and He is their elder brother. God spared not His only Son in the redemption of chosen sinners upon the principle of Grace abounding through Jesus Christ in the salvation of every man or every son bought to Glory. So He tasted death for every man or every son that Christ is bringing to Glory.

 

[Hardy777]

God has always reached out to all the world, for the Jews were supposed to be God's priests to the world, but they failed. In the dedication of the new temple, a promise was to any stranger of the world who was not a Jew that if they came before the temple and called out to God, He would hear and answer the stranger's prayer, 1 Kings 8:41. Predestination and election is to service, not salvation, 2 Tim 1:9, "Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." Election could not be to salvation because Paul states in 1 Tim 5:21, "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, ...." The Apostle Paul was very smart and was the one who first started using the word elect. He of all people would not have called angels elect, for he would have known that angles DO NOT GET SAVED, they are elected by God to special acts of service. The angel does not even preach salvation, in Acts 10 the angel God sent told Cornelius to send for Peter to tell him what to do to be saved.

 

[beloved57]

hardy:

God has always reached out to all the world

Not suprising being that His elect is throughout the world..

Predestination and election is to service, not salvation,

Not True, because the service requires salvation..He has made us a kingdom of Priest to our God..rev 5:

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Hardy777]

It is God's will that all come to salvation, and then He has a predestined or elected path for each of us, but each must choose of his free will to come to salvation first. 2 Tim 1:9 states, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." When God selected Jacob to lead His people, that did not mean God hated Esau. Study Esau's life and you will see that God blessed Esau with a "homeland" Mount Seir during the 20 years Jacob was working for his 2 wives and stock. Deut 2:12 tells that God fought with Esau to clear out his homeland. They were predestined to service before they were born, not salvation. Look at what God told their mother before they were born. The Apostle Paul would not have referred to the angels as elect in 1 Tim 5:21 if election had anything to do with salvation.

 

[beloved57]

hardy:

It is God's will that all come to salvation,

Not all without exception, but the ones it is His will for shall come to Christ jn 6:


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Thats the All being referred to in 1 tim 2

 

[beloved57]

Limited Atonement and Heb 2:8-10 cont

So Christ tasted or experienced death for every man or son, and so He is the propitiation for the sins of the people in america, asia, europe, and africa and etc, and why, Because He experienced or tasted death for each of them, out of every tribe Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain[Tasted death], and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

By understanding the nature of the atonement and the certain powerful effects of the cross, it should be noted that the efficacy of the is towards people of all nations, and so words like all, every and the such are used in connection, but they still only apply to the chosen people of God, however man made religions twist the Truth and take advantage of those words, and change them into false statements.

 

[patricius79]

beloved,

Calvinism is a heresy, although it is true that we are saved purely by grace

(and that we have free will. Rev 2:21, Mt 23:37)

have you ever thought of becoming Catholic?

http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

 

[Hardy777]

Calvinism is heresy, God loves all people and desires them to come to Him through Christ. Then He has a special calling for each of us. God does not predestine people to heaven or hell prior to birth. We each must choose Him out of our desire for Him. Malachi 1:1-3 does not say God hated Esau. God is quoting back the the Children of Israel the lie they had been telling about Him. God says "I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet you say," A quote mark, ", should follow Yet you say, " -------- unto the end of verse 3" God never said He hated Esau, He was confronting them with the lie they were telling about Him. Read my book at: rahardin.com "God Loved Esau." The Apostle Paul in Romans 9 was talking about election to service, not salvation.

 

[beloved57]

hardy:

Calvinism is heresy,

You are calling the Truth calvinism, thats not going to help you in the day of Judgment.

 

[beloved57]

pat:

beloved,

Calvinism is a heresy,

So that is what you call the word of God ?

 

[freelight]

all in the choosing......

all in the choosing......

~*~*~

Sounds like a pretty 'selfish atonement' on God's part,....assuming such. Granted, with freedom of choice and provision made for all souls to choose the way of true prosperity, this opportunity would be available to all....since Love's will could include no less. - factoring in the 'freedom of choice' is a 'key' in such appropriations.



pj

 

[beloved57]

That we [The elect or Believers] might live through Him !

1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [The Believers He was writing to] might live through him.

10 herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Another Purpose for Christ coming into the world and becoming a propitiation for our sins [if we are believers] was so that we should live [spiritually and abundantly] through Him.

In Adam, the elect of God became a sinful people, in both nature and conduct [ungodly] and so we were dead, that is dead to God, alienated from the Life of God, dead in sin. God sent His Son into the World out of Love for us not only to be a propitiation for our sins [procuring our forgiveness] but also to be life for us, that we may Live Spiritually. So Christ coming not only saved His beloved People from the penalty of Sin, but also He saved them from, out of Spiritual Death unto a newness of Life, for He gives us to experience as it were a Spiritual Resurrection from the Dead. Thats why it is said that He became a quickening Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Jn 5:21

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Christ gives to all for whom He died and represented Justification unto Life !

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Here again is the propitiation and Life together, Thats why it says that we should live through Him. His death effects Life. .Because He becomes a Life giving Spirit.

So those who are not and do not experience Life from Him, He did not die for, He did not represent in His death.

 

[Hardy777]

pat:



So that is what you call the word of God ?

Calvinism is not the word of God. If you read the Scriptures that were in my post you would see that.