ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[glorydaz]

Your discernment of her intent could be flawed.

Great minds think alike. I just told her that same thing. :thumb:

 

[Tambora]

Without knowledge who can be holy?

I guess you could be holy but nobody else knows it!
:chuckle:

 

[Shasta]

Ah, what you "think" Jesus meant. I believe what He actually said. Children do not have an evil heart. They are very honest and straight forward...no pretence whatsoever.



Really, and how many childen have you seen who have had no adult interference? Do you see those remote tribes where the children are passing their own food around and hugging those who get hurt? I have.



Ha. They get along better when adults don't butt in at all. Check out the little Mexican kids or Indian kids. I've seen more love and compassion coming from children than I do most adults.

It's always when a person chooses evil over good that sin then gets dominion over a person. At that point, we must train them up in the way they should go.

So it is your position that Jesus said we should be like children in EVERY WAY? Children throw tantrums. Should we follow their example in that too?

Whether children are compassionate depends on a lot of things, primarily the way they are raised and, contrary to what you have suggested, you don't wait until children have moral consciousness before you begin training them. At first they do not understand the "whys" and "wherefores" of why they chould behave certain ways, and, even if they know they might very well act on impulse any way. If you wait until they understand good and evil before you train them you will very likely have a brat on your hands.

They do better without adult interference?? Without supervision a group of children will eventually devolve into a "Lord of the Flies" scenario. Have you seen what children are like when their parents or their teachers do not intervene. That is total foolishness and flies in the face of experience.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I guess you could be holy but nobody else knows it!
:chuckle:

:shocked::crackup:

 

[glorydaz]

Without knowledge who can be holy?

God didn't leave us without the knowledge of good and evil via our conscience.

Best of all, one of my favorite texts is this one. It tells us the knowledge of God...even His eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen and understood by man. He's created us with the knowledge we need right in us. It's why mankind from the dawn of time have sought for God.

Romans 1:19-20KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

 

[Shasta]

I am glad to see that you finally realize that the "death" in "bold" in the following verse is speaking about "spiritual death":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You do realize that before someone can die spiritually they must first be alive spiritually, don't you? So when do you think a person becomes spiritually alive before he sins?



Let us look at this passage again:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again (anōthen)" (Jn.3:6-7).​

Here the Greek word translated "again" is anōthen and it is an adverb. This adverb modifies how a person is born. In this instance the word means "over again, indicating repetition...Jn.iii.3" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore, when the Lord Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again he was referring to a repetition of one of the births which he had mentioned in verse six. And since it is impossible for anyone to beborn again in the flesh then He telling Nicodemus that he must be born again spiritually. That means that Nicodemus had already been born of the Spirit and that obviously happened when He was conceived.

We can see the same truth in regard to the way Paul described his salvation. He wrote:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that he must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

That is exactly what the Lord Jesus is referring to here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (Jn.3:3,5-7).​

All this to say that the word means "born again" and no, Jerry he does not want the first kind of birth to be repeated. The first birth was according to the flesh (the laws of genetics and reproduction). That is how everyone is born. The second birth is a work of the Spirit. The First is of the flesh. The second is of the spirit. He distinguishes between the two to help Nicodemus understand. This is simple. If you were not so obsessed with constructing this neo-Pelagian doctrine of yours it would be easy to see.

 

[glorydaz]

So it is your position that Jesus said we should be like children in EVERY WAY? Children throw tantrums. Should we follow their example in that too?

In all the ways that count. Temper tantrums? I see those on here on this forum. :chuckle:

 

[Shasta]

Jerry is full of Pelagian sausage . . .

I really think this is Pelagianism

 

[Shasta]

Because, even though he knew what was right, he did not have the ability to do what was right.

And that being one simple thing.

Obey one command.

No, he sinned because he tried to please his wife. See what that gets you?

 

[glorydaz]

So it is your position that Jesus said we should be like children in EVERY WAY? Children throw tantrums. Should we follow their example in that too?

Whether children are compassionate depends on a lot of things, primarily the way they are raised and, contrary to what you have suggested, you don't wait until children have moral consciousness before you begin training them. At first they do not understand the "whys" and "wherefores" of why they chould behave certain ways, and, even if they know they might very well act on impulse any way. If you wait until they understand good and evil before you train them you will very likely have a brat on your hands.

They do better without adult interference?? Without supervision a group of children will eventually devolve into a "Lord of the Flies" scenario. Have you seen what children are like when their parents or their teachers do not intervene. That is total foolishness and flies in the face of experience.

I'll hold my experience up with yours any day where children are concerned. The Lord of the Flies was a novel.FYI :chuckle:

I do find it odd that you argue with the Lord on this, since He clearly said we should be converted and become like little children. Then again, He sees the heart and men only see the outside.

 

[Shasta]

Your discernment of her intent could be flawed.

Its always possible

 

[Shasta]

In all the ways that count. Temper tantrums? I see those on here on this forum. :chuckle:

A lot of times we act like children.

 

[glorydaz]

If God, and He did, told Adam to not eat knowing Adam had no choice that would make God a liar.

All knowledge good or evil is below Holiness !



Immaterial God commanded Adam to NOT eat off of that tree. Rationalization is what Eve did when she disobeyed God.



Adam and Eve disobeyed God PERIOD and the result was mankind is born with a sin nature.

When a lion is born it drinks milk but eventually the lion will eat meat it is the lions NATURE.

Man is a sinner not because he sins he sins because he is sinner as ,George Affleck said.

Adam did die in the day he ate off of the tree. " A day unto God is a 1000 unto man and a 1000 years is but a day unto God. No man has ever lived a 1000 years so God was right.

Why did Adam sin if it wasn't in his nature to do so? That's what you can't explain away.

Adam did what we all do....disobey God. He didn't pass down a thing God didn't create him with.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, he sinned because he tried to please his wife. See what that gets you?

Yep.

It makes those times when I don't really stick out.

 

[glorydaz]

A lot of times we act like children.

Right, which is why we can't judge according to the outside of man, and it's God alone who sees into the heart.

 

[glorydaz]

It looks like someone had the ability.

Job 1:1KJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.​

God seems to think Cain had the ability.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

Now you're reading God's mind?

It seems to be what He's saying. Do you think he was just leading Cain on by telling him to do something he was incapable of doing? I sure don't. As I read the verse, God clearly is saying Cain could do well if he chose.

 

[Shasta]

I'll hold my experience up with yours any day where children are concerned. The Lord of the Flies was a novel.FYI :chuckle:

I do find it odd that you argue with the Lord on this, since He clearly said we should be converted and become like little children. Then again, He sees the heart and men only see the outside.

When an adult who is self-centered and intemperate is said to be "acting like a child" it is not a compliment. Just because some people do does not make that acceptable adult behavior. We are supposed to know the norms that define acceptable behavior.

Your mistake in logic is in assuming that because we should emulate children in SOME ways therefore we should be like them in EVERY way. The Bible also says foolishness is bound in the heart of a child. I am sure the Lord would not want us to emulate that quality.

Do you really think I do not know Lord of the Flies was a novel...or is this just more contempt? The book is often used as a metaphor for situations where children are free to act without without adult supervision or consequence. I have seem this chaos many times in classrooms and in families. When kids are left to their own devices they most certainly do not behave like little denizens of paradise.

If you say,"Well they behave like a lot of adults do" then that is true but that is not the point you are trying to make. Adults have all sinned and, as a consequence, we expect that many would have developed ungodly characteristics. However, you would expect that children, having never sinned, would show much better character since there has never been any enmity between them and God.

Also since they have spiritual life from conception you would think the Spirit would lead them spontaneously to have the right attitudes and behavior. The truth is that children behave about as well as their upbringing, genetics, temperament leads them to behave. There is no evidence that they spontaneously exhibit the fruit of the Spirit - which they would if it was there nature to do so.

 

[dodge]

glorydaz;4981894]Why did Adam sin if it wasn't in his nature to do so? That's what you can't explain away.

I nor anyone else can go past what scripture says. God told Adam not to and he did period.

Why did Adam disobey God my best guess was when Eve gave him the forbidden fruit Adam figured to stay with Eve he would have to disobey God also.

Adam did what we all do....disobey God. He didn't pass down a thing God didn't create him with.

The difference is Adam did NOT have to disobey God and we having a sin nature WILL.

You are ignoring that Adam was created in God's likeness and Adam's children was created in Adam's image and likeness. The Holy Spirit did not have IMAGE added for nothing.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

God didn't leave us without the knowledge of good and evil via our conscience.

Best of all, one of my favorite texts is this one. It tells us the knowledge of God...even His eternal power and Godhead are clearly seen and understood by man. He's created us with the knowledge we need right in us. It's why mankind from the dawn of time have sought for God.

Romans 1:19-20KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Can't really find a problem with that.

 

[Shasta]

I nor anyone else can go past what scripture says. God told Adam not to and he did period.

Why did Adam disobey God my best guess was when Eve gave him the forbidden fruit Adam figured to stay with Eve he would have to disobey God also.



The difference is Adam did NOT have to disobey God and we having a sin nature WILL.

You are ignoring that Adam was created in God's likeness and Adam's children was created in Adam's image and likeness. The Holy Spirit did not have IMAGE added for nothing.

Right. We can sin without having an inclination to do so just like the Devil sinned.