ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Jerry Shugart]

Please stop the mindless write-offs that are also insulting.

Start using your mind for a change and answer my question:

In what did Abraham place his faith in the day when his faith was counted for righteousness?

And then when you answer that then give me the best evidence which you can give to support your position that Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to all of his descendants.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Imputation

Imputation

Without a doubt Romans 5:12-18 is the most misunderstood passages of the New Testament and a false understanding of this passage provides the very foundation for the myth that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all his descendants. Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

The one man in question here is Adam. All are dead in Adam. Adam indeed was alive spiritually when created, able to sin or not to sin. Adam, our federal representative, sinned and plunged all his progeny (you, me, all) into corruption and sin. The fact that all who are born sin establishes the corruption that has been passed along to us all. We are sinners from birth. Born spiritually dead and dying. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning.

There is no place in Scripture where the doctrine of imputation is set forth more clearly and centrally than in Romans 5. There is no other way to make sense of the way in which Paul says that we sinned in Adam than to understand this assertion putatively, that is, we sinned in Adam by imputation.

Paul labors the point that Adam’s sin is reckoned and transferred, that is, imputed, to the entire human race. We know Paul is speaking about imputation here because he spends time drawing the remarkable contrast that just as one man’s offense and sin were reckoned to the entire human race, so another Man’s righteousness, in a similar manner, was imputed to all who believe. The parallel between the first and the second Adam in Romans 5 stands. The imputation of the sin of the one and the imputation of the righteousness of the Other, stands. If there is no imputation, then there is no justification by faith alone.

Paul in Romans 5 is not speaking about man's actual sin after Adam. For if every person contracts his own guilt by becoming a sinner by sinning, then one wonders why Paul bothers to form a comparison between Adam and Christ. Surely you do not intend to imply that we contract our own righteousness by being righteous? I hope not. The symmetry of Paul's comparison between fallen Adam's innate corruption and Our Lord innate righteousness, and the respective imputations of sin or righteousness upon man, is inescapable. Given what Paul has actually written, comparing Adam and Our Lord, it then follows that our innate and hereditary depravity and our Lord's innate and hereditary righteousness, imputed to us, is what is being referred to in Romans 5.

Paul's point of bringing up Adam is to note that all humanity is plunged into Sin and death by the first Adam - that all Sinned in Adam and are fallen and under judgment. But the sacrifice is not like the offense. For, in addition to Adam's Sin that we bear in guilt with him, we are also guilty of our many sins. Yet, Christ not only atones for Sin but sins as well.

Moreover, the point of the Adam and Christ comparison is to show, in large measure, that where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. If you're wondering about the power of Christ's atonement to save you to the uttermost then stop- Paul's point is that grace superabounds more than grace.

Paul is not applying a symmetrical point about the mass of humanity in Romans 5. All of humanity, including us fell with Adam, including us but Christ's sacrifice atones for the many that includes us but not the whole world. It's not that Christ's sacrifice is insufficient to do so but it is because the design of the atonement is such that it is to be only efficient for those it is applied to.

Thus the passage is designed to give you confidence to see that grace abounds where sin once reigned and this leads naturally into the next line of thinking that Paul needs to guard against - If God is glorified by showing mercy to sinners by showing them grace, why don't I sin even more so that He can be more and more gracious? But, of course, Paul's point is to show that grace abounds above sin but not that God wants us to sin or redeemed us from slavery to sin that we should continue to walk in it.

In summary, Jerry, you misunderstand imputation as relates to original sin or to justification.

More on imputation and Romans 5:

Spoiler

IMPUTATION

Source: Cairns, A. (2002). Dictionary of Theological Terms (pp. 225–226). Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International.

A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or of that of his federal head. While impute is used in Scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4; 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:

Imputation of Adam’s Sin

First, it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned, to them; i.e., it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous: “By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” (Rom. 5:19). Some Reformed theologians ground the imputation of Adam’s sin in the real involvement of all his posterity in his sin, because of the specific unity of the race in him. Shedd strongly advocates this view in his Dogmatic Theology. Others—e.g., Charles and A. A. Hodge, and Louis Berkhof—refer all to the federal headship of Adam. The Westminster Standards emphasize that Adam is both the federal head and the root of all his posterity. Both parties accept that this is so. Thus, the dispute is not whether Adam’s federal headship is the ground of the imputation of his first sin to us, but whether that federal headship rests solely on a divine constitution—i.e., because God appointed it—or on the fact that God made him the actual root of the race and gave the race a real specific unity in him.

The theory of mediate imputation has never gained acceptance in orthodox expressions of the Reformed Faith. It is subversive to the entire concept of the imputation of Adam’s sin upon which Paul grounds his exposition of justification by virtue of union with Christ our righteousness (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22).

Paul’s statement of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity is stark: “By [through] one man sin entered into the world, and death by [through] sin; so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12). In the AV the clause “for all have sinned” may give the impression that Paul’s argument is that all die like Adam because all, like him, have sinned. But this is not the case. His statement is, “Death passed upon all humanity inasmuch as all sinned.” He teaches that all participated in Adam’s sin and that both the guilt and the penalty of that sin were transmitted to them. However we explain the mode of that participation—whether on purely federal or on traducianist-federal grounds—the fact of it stands as a fundamental of the Christian revelation. As the Shorter Catechism says, “The covenant [of works] being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity, all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression” (Question 16, emphasis added.)

Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us

Second, imputation has a second major use in Scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense “imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He—
(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and
(2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9.
As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9”
(A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15).

The fact of this imputation is inescapable: “By the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). The ground of it is the real, vital, personal, spiritual and federal union of Christ with His people. It is indispensable to the biblical doctrine of justification. Without it, we fail to do justice to Paul’s teaching, and we cannot lead believers into the comfort that the gospel holds out to them. That comfort is of a perfect legal release from guilt and of a perfect legal righteousness that establishes a secure standing before God and His law on the basis of a perfect obedience outside of their own subjective experience.

The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Hugh Martin’s paraphrase catches the meaning precisely: “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Federal Headship Tutorial

Federal Headship Tutorial

Yeah, as far as federal headship etc. I'm not as well versed. I suppose the disease/condition idea fits both original and ancestral?

See a Brakel's CRS, volume 1 , Chapter 12, page 355 (<--book page, not your pdf reader's page) and forward:

http://www.abrakel.com/p/christians-reasonable-service.html

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5:12 speaks to the spiritual, physical, and judicial death of man.

Since you admit that the verse is referring to at least a "spiritual death" then look at what is said there:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Here can see that "spiritual" death passed to all men because all men have sinned. Since a man has to be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually then that means that all men are not spiritually dead until they sin.

They do not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

In summary, Jerry, you misunderstand imputation as relates to original sin or to justification.

As far as becoming unrightousness a person must first "sin." And for the righteousness of God to be imputed to that person he must "believe."

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Since you admit that the verse is referring to at least a "spiritual death" then look at what is said there:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Here can see that "spiritual" death passed to all men because all men have sinned. Since a man has to be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually then that means that all men are not spiritually dead until they sin.

They do not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.

Jerry,

My post above contains 4 links to well thought out discussions of the matter of original sin. One of those links even explains the view you are taking...that we are born morally neutral. In the end the result is the same, for there is no one who is morally able to not ever not sin. Hence, your view is essentially a distinction without a difference. Further my response to Lon related to Federal Headship points to a very pastoral and thorough four-volume work by a Brakel that I am confident will edify any and all that take it upon themselves to read. It is a work that distinguishes itself from others in that it anticipates the objections usually raised to whatever is being discussed and provides direct answers to the same. You (and others) will find it a treat to read from time to time.

Now some may simply wave off these references under the guise of "just me and my Bible" or "not interested in what others have to say, only what Jesus has to say", "I don't read commentaries", etc., I sincerely encourage you to avail yourself of the thoughts of other believers like yourself. After all, we are reading the thoughts of other believers at this site all day long, so how is that any different than reading something written by another elsewhere? Hence, these usual objections to reading other sources are really self-refuting. For that matter, who knows, you may just learn something new, or at least be more informed about this and many other topics that you are passionate about discussing.

AMR

 

[glorydaz]

There is no place in Scripture where the doctrine of imputation is set forth more clearly and centrally than in Romans 5. There is no other way to make sense of the way in which Paul says that we sinned in Adam than to understand this assertion putatively, that is, we sinned in Adam by imputation.

Okay, let's keep this easy cause that's how I roll.


You put forth this idea that we "sin in Adam". I don't see that in Romans 5, but I see it here, and it isn't talking about sin at all. It's talking about physical death and the resurrection of the dead.

1 Cor. 1:21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Clearing Up Multi-Quote Posts No Longer Needed

Clearing Up Multi-Quote Posts No Longer Needed

If I multi quote... is there a quick way to release the quotes?

No.

You need to go back and uncheck them one by one to have them disappear each time you open up a post reply box, else they will follow you across forums and threads until they are used. So if you have trouble remembering them, just open up a post reply box to any post handy.

Now include all the multi-quote posts in that post reply box.
Next select the "Go Advanced" editing feature.
Now select the Post Preview button. (You may have to select this Post Preview button twice.)
In the post now previewed above your editing window just navigate to the posts that now appear linked and un-check the mult-quote button.
When done cancel the post you have been playing with in the steps above and you will no longer be bugged by these multi-quoted posts that have been following you around.

AMR

 

[glorydaz]

We are not sinners because we sin.

We sin because we are sinners.

Why did Adam sin?

 

[Tambora]

We are not sinners because we sin.

What? We are not sinners when we sin?
Of course we are.

We sin because we are sinners.

Follow through with that thought ----- Adam sinned, thus Adam sinned BECAUSE he was a sinner.

 

[Tambora]

Why did Adam sin?

According to GA's logical conclusion ----- Adam didn't become a sinner because he sinned, he sinned because he was a sinner.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Why did Adam sin?

Because, even though he knew what was right, he did not have the ability to do what was right.

And that being one simple thing.

Obey one command.

 

[glorydaz]

??? They are spiritually dead (2 Cor 5:14--all died ) and they can't accomplish those things. Christ's righteousness is provided specifically for that.

Justification is not an experience as such. It is about the account or debt with God which is seriously in arrears because of Adam. A person may in fact be quite nice, fair, honest. The same one Gospel is just as much for them as the prostitute who serves laced alcoholic drinks and steals extra money, valuables.

Here again we see someone confusing physical death with spiritual death. Paul is talking about physical death and the resurrection from the dead. All men do die physically..no doubt about it.

2 Cor. 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

 

[Tambora]

Because, even though he knew what was right, he did not have the ability to do what was right.

And that being one simple thing.

Obey one command.

What do you mean he didn't have the ability to do what was right?
Are you saying he had no ability to NOT eat the fruit?

 

[glorydaz]

Because, even though he knew what was right, he did not have the ability to do what was right.

And that being one simple thing.

Obey one command.

Then, by golly, he was just like us. His nature was exactly like ours. It wasn't a sinful nature, it was human nature....exactly as God intended us to be.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What do you mean he didn't have the ability to do what was right?
Are you saying he had no ability to NOT eat the fruit?

That's what I said.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Then, by golly, he was just like us. His nature was exactly like ours. It wasn't a sinful nature, it was human nature....exactly as God intended us to be.

Natcherly, lol.

 

[glorydaz]

What do you mean he didn't have the ability to do what was right?
Are you saying he had no ability to NOT eat the fruit?

It looks like someone had the ability.

Job 1:1KJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.​

God seems to think Cain had the ability.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

 

[musterion]

It looks like someone had the ability.

Job 1:1KJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.​

God seems to think Cain had the ability.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

:BRAVO:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

It looks like someone had the ability.

Job 1:1KJV There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.​

God seems to think Cain had the ability.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

Now you're reading God's mind?

 

[musterion]

Darn tootin' Tam! Who you think you are, reading God's mind by reading His Words! Why the noive of some people!