ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

Danoh

New member
Nang, true; one should speak up when another is being unjustly attacked.

But only because that is the right thing to do.

Not out of chivalry, nor even in hopes of being liked, nor even in an attempt to take sides, and so on ad nauseam.

Only then, come what may afterwards (one's motives questioned, or met gratitude, or met with ingratitude, you name it) can one know one stood up simply out of a true sense of right and wrong.

So, there is that.

Spoiler


And it has to be that - a stand alone in the Lord.

And then there is the issue of when no one stands up when someone is being unjustly attacked.

Said individual must rest in the fact that they know deep within themselves that theirs is a just cause.

That too has to be a stand alone in the Lord.

Nang, your fleshly mind has lied to you.

But you have to be willing to at least consider that this is actually the case, or you will only remain where you are - at the mercy of other's whims in their hypocrisy.

Fact is, in contrast to the self-righteous duplicity of some in their arrogance that they need no one, and all the rest of what is nothing more than their being conformed unto this world; you already have all you need in the Lord.

Fact is, that if during such tribulations, you'll turn to the Lord through His Word, say, in Romans 5 or in Hebrews 8; then you'll gradually find that no temptation such as is common to man will be too big to bear.

You'll find that if you'll walk in the Word by faith on these kinds of afflictions, as you face what ever you might find yourself going through, the Spirit will make them "light affliction" as He works both your affliction and His Word together for said good.

What it boils down to is a focus on the following...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

You focus on THAT love.

And you STAY focused on that EACH time.

And AS LONG AS THAT TAKES.

See if THAT does not BECOME YOUR victory in HIM no matter what comes your way, who is for you, who is against you, who dissapoints, you name it...

I've been through some tough times and back over many years.

That right there - the love OF CHRIST - when focused on NO MATTER HOW LONG THAT TAKES - is what eventually becomes YOUR peace OF GOD that passeth ALL understanding.

But you have to put in it's REQUIRED time.

In fact, that right there has even enabled me to help people get past PTSD!

I mean think of it - the love OF CHRIST IS OURS!

ACCEPTED IN...THE BELOVED.

The very FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY!

One could go on...and on...and on about this GREAT LOVE WHEREWITH HE LOVED US.

Believers are going to dissapoint - sooner, or later.

No surprise there. I mean, we're talkin people the Lord had to die for - we can't really expect the best from such as ANY of us.

Better that focus the Apostle of the Gentiles encouraged...

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

God IS...RIGHT.

Look at things THROUGH HIS SON.

The best toward you in this...

Rom. 5:8.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Nang, true; one should speak up when another is being unjustly attacked.

But only because that is the right thing to do.

Not out of chivalry, nor even in hopes of being liked, nor even in an attempt to take sides, and so on ad nauseam.

Only then, come what may afterwards (one's motives questioned, or met gratitude, or met with ingratitude, you name it) can one know one stood up simply out of a true sense of right and wrong.

So, there is that.

Spoiler


And it has to be that - a stand alone in the Lord.

And then there is the issue of when no one stands up when someone is being unjustly attacked.

Said individual must rest in the fact that they know deep within themselves that theirs is a just cause.

That too has to be a stand alone in the Lord.

Nang, your fleshly mind has lied to you.

But you have to be willing to at least consider that this is actually the case, or you will only remain where you are - at the mercy of other's whims in their hypocrisy.

Fact is, in contrast to the self-righteous duplicity of some in their arrogance that they need no one, and all the rest of what is nothing more than their being conformed unto this world; you already have all you need in the Lord.

Fact is, that if during such tribulations, you'll turn to the Lord through His Word, say, in Romans 5 or in Hebrews 8; then you'll gradually find that no temptation such as is common to man will be too big to bear.

You'll find that if you'll walk in the Word by faith on these kinds of afflictions, as you face what ever you might find yourself going through, the Spirit will make them "light affliction" as He works both your affliction and His Word together for said good.

What it boils down to is a focus on the following...

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

You focus on THAT love.

And you STAY focused on that EACH time.

And AS LONG AS THAT TAKES.

See if THAT does not BECOME YOUR victory in HIM no matter what comes your way, who is for you, who is against you, who dissapoints, you name it...

I've been through some tough times and back over many years.

That right there - the love OF CHRIST - when focused on NO MATTER HOW LONG THAT TAKES - is what eventually becomes YOUR peace OF GOD that passeth ALL understanding.

But you have to put in it's REQUIRED time.

In fact, that right there has even enabled me to help people get past PTSD!

I mean think of it - the love OF CHRIST IS OURS!

ACCEPTED IN...THE BELOVED.

The very FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY!

One could go on...and on...and on about this GREAT LOVE WHEREWITH HE LOVED US.

Believers are going to dissapoint - sooner, or later.

No surprise there. I mean, we're talkin people the Lord had to die for - we can't really expect the best from such as ANY of us.

Better that focus the Apostle of the Gentiles encouraged...

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

God IS...RIGHT.

Look at things THROUGH HIS SON.

The best toward you in this...

Rom. 5:8.

Thank you Danoh. This post and your scriptural encouragement is answer to prayer.

This is exactly the kind support every Christian needs and wants to hear.

May God richly bless you for this gift . . .

Nang
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
People do not die because they are denied access to the Tree of Life.

People are denied access to the Tree of Life because they are dead in trespasses and sins.

Yeah, let's just make stuff up as we go along because it helps to support our theory if we do.

Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Without a doubt Romans 5:12-18 is the most misunderstood passages of the New Testament and a false understanding of this passage provides the very foundation for the myth that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all his descendants. Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness"
(Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth"
(Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This princle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death. Therefore, we can understand that Adam's sin of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil resulted in all of his descendants having a knowledge of law. And when his descendants sinned against that law they died spiritually.

That might have been what he was thinking but it was NOT what he said.

Jerry's post:#866
Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
That is not what Paul is saying. Instead, the reason all men die is BECAUSE all men sin": is actually what he said.



lol, it appears YOU are the one with their knickers in a knot tonight.



We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I still believe ALL are born with a sin nature.




Not much to discuss that is exactly what scripture teaches.

Here's the OP, and it was repeated ad nauseum (sorry Jerry) throughout this thread.

As far as your belief that all are born with a sinful nature, you contradict yourself by saying children
aren't guilty of sin.

So, it's you, after all, who got your knickers in a knot because you jumped to conclusions about what Jerry was saying.

Or do you only think there is one kind of death? Physical death? I'll listen if you're saying men don't die spiritually. We may as well add that to the list under discussion.
 

Danoh

New member
Thank you Danoh. This post and your scriptural encouragement is answer to prayer.

This is exactly the kind support every Christian needs and wants to hear.

May God richly bless you for this gift . . .

Nang

Now for that other temptation that also proves we are fallen.

The temptation ever in our flesh to either like someone or accept them because they did us a good turn, or to dislike them or reject them because they failed us.

Both of which are similar to the Law's Performance Based Acceptance.

The bondage of legalism we are all ever tempted with in our flesh.

Keep that in mind.

Tomorrow we will surely dissapoint one another.

Just one more reason why Christ had to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And if by grace, then is it no more of works....

And one more reason to glory in the Cross during the dissapointments of another.

Only then can we actually begin to know that we are calling a thing what it actually is, rather than out of some fleshly mind's notions.

In this, better alone in Him, than in a crowd...all alone.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Remember, tomorrow we will surely dissapoint one another.

But there is always, Romans 5:8.

Always...

Have a good night.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
It has been astounding the contributors to the heretical view that denies the ramifications of the fall of Adam upon the human race.

It is not surprising that many here deny faith alone, by grace alone.

Dispensationalism, in any of its variations, cannot stand if Abraham, for example, was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
Satan's whole purpose is to take away from the power of the blood of Christ.

Just one of the things that hides in the church.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
It is not surprising that many here deny faith alone, by grace alone.

Dispensationalism, in any of its variations, cannot stand if Abraham, for example, was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
Satan's whole purpose is to take away from the power of the blood of Christ.

Just one of the things that hides in the church.




To be fair, it is complicated to express how it is that sin was imputed to all mankind, while there are still many nice people who aren't Christians. Sometimes it is just a matter of not understanding imputation. Sometimes is it not understanding the place of a generalization that will have exceptions to it.
 

dodge

New member
Here's the OP, and it was repeated ad nauseum (sorry Jerry) throughout this thread.

As far as your belief that all are born with a sinful nature, you contradict yourself by saying children
aren't guilty of sin.

So, it's you, after all, who got your knickers in a knot because you jumped to conclusions about what Jerry was saying.

Or do you only think there is one kind of death? Physical death? I'll listen if you're saying men don't die spiritually. We may as well add that to the list under discussion.

ONE MORE TIME:

Do you see the word "spiritual" in what Jerry posted here?

Jerry's post:#866
Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
That is not what Paul is saying. Instead, the reason all men die is BECAUSE all men sin": is actually what he said.

Just because you THINK IT IS THERE it is NOT.

I said children have a sin nature and no it is not a contradiction it is YOU not understanding anything but what you want to.
 

dodge

New member
All people are destined to die physically because they are all denied the very thing which is needed to live for ever--the tree of life (Gen.22-24). Some people die sooner than others.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If the above isn't s about sin nature there would be no explanation for babies dying.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
People do not die because they are denied access to the Tree of Life.

People are denied access to the Tree of Life because they are dead in trespasses and sins.

No, when Adam sineed mankind no longer had access to the very thing which would allow man to live for ever--the tree of life:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life"
(Gen.3:22-24).​

Now all men are destined to die physically (Heb.9:27) so all men are going to die physically whether or not they sin. And according to the Scriptures, at least in theory, a man has the ability to live a sinless life.

That demonstrates that no one is born in a state of being spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If the above isn't s about sin nature there would be no explanation for babies dying.

No, Romans 5:12 is not teaching that anyone is born spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin. For an explanation of what Romans 5:12 is teaching just go to my OP on this thread.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
No, when Adam sineed mankind no longer had access to the very thing which would allow man to live for ever--the tree of life:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life"
(Gen.3:22-24).​

Now all men are destined to die physically (Heb.9:27) so all men are going to die physically whether or not they sin. And according to the Scriptures, at least in theory, a man has the ability to live a sinless life.

That demonstrates that no one is born in a state of being spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).




??? They are spiritually dead (2 Cor 5:14--all died ) and they can't accomplish those things. Christ's righteousness is provided specifically for that.

Justification is not an experience as such. It is about the account or debt with God which is seriously in arrears because of Adam. A person may in fact be quite nice, fair, honest. The same one Gospel is just as much for them as the prostitute who serves laced alcoholic drinks and steals extra money, valuables.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It is not surprising that many here deny faith alone, by grace alone.

Dispensationalism, in any of its variations, cannot stand if Abraham, for example, was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

When Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness (Gen.15:6) what was it he believed? Was it in Jesus Christ? If you can't figure it out by reading the context found at Genesis 15:6 then go to Romans 4:18-22.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
When Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness (Gen.15:6) what was it he believed? Was it in Jesus Christ? If you can't figure it out by reading the context found at Genesis 15:6 then go to Romans 4:18-22.



But as we know from other comment by Paul (Rom 9, Gal 3-4), he was not talking about the offspring of his body. Indeed, he tried to create his own offspring through a surrogate wife. By doing that he showed that that route was carnal, was a poor choice, was faithless, and it has been a thorn ever since. Paul said this (picked up again in 9) because it was about what would be true in Christ. ABRAHAM SAW CHRIST'S DAY.

This is the fundamental mistake of 2P2P. IT READS THE OT DIRECTLY WITHOUT THE NT COMMENTARY.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
But as we know from other comment by Paul (Rom 9, Gal 3-4), he was not talking about the offspring of his body.

Why are you changing the subject? The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that when Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness his faith was not in Christ Jesus. With that settled if you have any comments about the subject of this thread then they will be appreciated but I do not want this thread to be diverted by running down a rabbit trail about how Abraham was saved.

Thanks!
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Why are you changing the subject? The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that when Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness his faith was not in Christ Jesus. With that settled if you have any comments about the subject of this thread then they will be appreciated but I do not want this thread to be diverted by running down a rabbit trail about how Abraham was saved.

Thanks!




Nice try, but that was the subject of your thread (though not the post, but you wrote the thread). Just see the context. The whole chapter had been about wages v gifts. so why would he suddenly just start talking about the race of Israel as the gift when the gift was the righteousness of Christ--and it is if you follow the conclusion of that paragraph, and ch 5A and ch5B?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Abraham saw Christ's day and rejoiced in it.

The funny thing is that this is what Hebrews is about when taking up the KING OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Melchi-Zedek) but the 2P2Ps' control over the Bible says it is not.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
In what did Abraham place his faith in the day when his faith was counted for righteousness? If you don't have anything to contribute to the subject of this thread then please cease from your inane comments.




Please stop the mindless write-offs that are also insulting. They are just self-congratulatory blinders to make you feel good and stop thinking.

I have heard comments on the topic for 40 years.

Abraham heard about Christ (Melchi-zedek) and what he would do (his sacrificial day) and believed that, and it was imputed to him as righteous. He also learned that THAT (faith) was going to create a nation/people that would further bless the world. This can only be the community of faith in Christ. that is how this question is unpacked in rom 9, Gal 3 and 4.

If you want to call Rom 9, Gal 3 and 4 inane babblings, go ahead, because all I will be doing is sticking your nose back in them. That is the in the plain meaning. This is different from 2P2P, which evades the plain meaning for the 2P2P meaning.
 
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