ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[1Mind1Spirit]

It seems to be what He's saying. Do you think he was just leading Cain on by telling him to do something he was incapable of doing? I sure don't. As I read the verse, God clearly is saying Cain could do well if he chose.

I'm purdy shore Cain couldn't continue in well doing.

I also see that God didn't invoke the death penalty on him but instead showed mercy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have no problem with Romans 5:12 being about spiritual death but you are wrong about man being born spiritually alive.

I am glad to see that you finally realize that the "death" in "bold" in the following verse is speaking about "spiritual death":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You do realize that before someone can die spiritually they must first be alive spiritually, don't you? So when do you think a person becomes spiritually alive before he sins?

I continue to think that you will actually answer my questions here but you keep ignoring them.

All this to say that the word means "born again" and no, Jerry he does not want the first kind of birth to be repeated. The first birth was according to the flesh (the laws of genetics and reproduction). That is how everyone is born. The second birth is a work of the Spirit. The First is of the flesh. The second is of the spirit. He distinguishes between the two to help Nicodemus understand. This is simple. If you were not so obsessed with constructing this neo-Pelagian doctrine of yours it would be easy to see.

I have already given you evidence that my view is the correct one and all you can say is that we cannot trust what the Greek experts say about the meaning of the Greek words in regard to this verse:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that he must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

That is exactly what the Lord Jesus is referring to here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (Jn.3:3,5-7).​

Now please answer my points. And then please provide what you think is the best evidence found in the Scriptures which support your view.

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm purdy shore Cain couldn't continue in well doing.

Purdy shore?

Well, Paul was of the opinion that man has the ability to continue in well doing.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Purdy shore?

Well, Paul was of the opinion that man has the ability to continue in well doing.

Couldn't and didn't.

 

[glorydaz]

When an adult who is self-centered and intemperate is said to be "acting like a child" it is not a compliment. Just because some people do does not make that acceptable adult behavior. We are supposed to know the norms that define acceptable behavior.

Your mistake in logic is in assuming that because we should emulate children in SOME ways therefore we should be like them in EVERY way. The Bible also says foolishness is bound in the heart of a child. I am sure the Lord would not want us to emulate that quality.

Do you really think I do not know Lord of the Flies was a novel...or is this just more contempt? The book is often used as a metaphor for situations where children are free to act without without adult supervision or consequence. I have seem this chaos many times in classrooms and in families. When kids are left to their own devices they most certainly do not behave like little denizens of paradise.

If you say,"Well they behave like a lot of adults do" then that is true but that is not the point you are trying to make. Adults have all sinned and, as a consequence, we expect that many would have developed ungodly characteristics. However, you would expect that children, having never sinned, would show much better character since there has never been any enmity between them and God.

Also since they have spiritual life from conception you would think the Spirit would lead them spontaneously to have the right attitudes and behavior. The truth is that children behave about as well as their upbringing, genetics, temperament leads them to behave. There is no evidence that they spontaneously exhibit the fruit of the Spirit - which they would if it was there nature to do so.

I didn't have to read far to see you have nothing to say. :blabla:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Couldn't and didn't.

So Paul was in error about whathe wrote here in regard to how God will deal with men in regard to their "deeds" or "works"?:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

Those who continue in well doing will be given eternal life. And these words of Paul arestrictly in regard to a person's works or deeds. That is why wrote that the law was ordained to life:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Sir Robert Anderson says:

" 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' The question was framed by a professional theologian, to test the orthodoxy of the great Rabbi of Nazareth. For evidently it was rumoured that the new Teacher was telling the people of a short road to Heaven. And the answer given was clear - no other answer, indeed, is possible; for what a man inherits is his by right - eternal life is the reward and goal of a perfect life on earth. A perfect life, mark - the standard being perfect love to God and man" (Anderson, Redemption Truths [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], 11).​

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. That can only mean that no one is born spiritually dead.

Why? If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Whether children are compassionate depends on a lot of things, primarily the way they are raised and, contrary to what you have suggested, you don't wait until children have moral consciousness before you begin training them. At first they do not understand the "whys" and "wherefores" of why they chould behave certain ways, and, even if they know they might very well act on impulse any way. If you wait until they understand good and evil before you train them you will very likely have a brat on your hands.

Exactly.

The same applies to Christians who will not obey what God says with the excuse that it would only be following a law.

LA

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The same applies to Christians who will not obey what God says with the excuse that it would only be following a law.

To which Christians are you making reference?

I do not know any Christians who do not try to do their best to obey what God says.

 

[George Affleck]

What? We are not sinners when we sin?
Of course we are.

If I may, I did not say "when". I said "because".

We are not sinners because we sin.

It is not the act of individual sins during our lifetime that causes us to be declared sinners.
If this were true, it would be theoretically possible to remain sinless.
Individual sins are confirmations of our default position as sinners "in Adam".
I am not saying that individual sins are not sinful in and of themselves or that they do not add to the weight of guilt.
The fact that no one can remain sinless testifies to the fact that "Sinner" is our spiritual profession as a result of the Fall.

Christians are still sinners. They are just sinners saved by grace.

Follow through with that thought ----- Adam sinned, thus Adam sinned BECAUSE he was a sinner.

Ok, let's follow through with that thought. Here it is:

We sin because we are sinners.

Putting words in my mouth or drawing silly conclusions is a "Jerry" trick. I prefer to be persuaded of better things of you and glorydaz and continue to have a high regard for you.

But again, if I may, I did not say (ipso facto) that Adam sinned because he was a sinner.
He did sin; but not because he was a sinner and compelled to do so.

Adam was the only man who ever lived (except Christ) who's will was free to continue having perfect fellowship with God as a sinless creation, or to relinquish that freedom. He was free to obey or disobey. He chose disobedience and it became part of the intrinsic nature he would pass down to all of his descendants. This has proved true because that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

As a result of his free choice to disobey, he sold himself into servitude to Satan and was no longer free. He became a bond-slave to sin and to the enemy of God. We, as his children, are also bond-servants to sin by law and by nature. We do not have that choice and are born as the possessions of Satan and servers of his purpose. We sin because we are sinners, but there is a war going on inside us because of it. We are also made in the image of God. Jesus is the only one in history (except Adam) who had no earthly father and was not a possession of Satan. He, the second Adam, was begotten of God, and was also free to obey and choose obedience and servitude to His Father.

Satan became legally guilty of murder, for the first time, when he and his servants murdered a free man at the crucifixion. This is how Jesus overcame the world.

The law entered to point out the fact that we are sinners. No law; no recognition of disobedience. It is our schoolmaster to drive us to Christ for forgiveness the only way possible - by grace, through faith, in Him.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Exactly.

The same applies to Christians who will not obey what God says with the excuse that it would only be following a law.

LA

What you just said is a TOTAL absurdity. Do you wish to elaborate any further?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

So Paul was in error about whathe wrote here in regard to how God will deal with men in regard to their "deeds" or "works"?:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).​

Those who continue in well doing will be given eternal life. And these words of Paul arestrictly in regard to a person's works or deeds. That is why wrote that the law was ordained to life:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Sir Robert Anderson says:

" 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' The question was framed by a professional theologian, to test the orthodoxy of the great Rabbi of Nazareth. For evidently it was rumoured that the new Teacher was telling the people of a short road to Heaven. And the answer given was clear - no other answer, indeed, is possible; for what a man inherits is his by right - eternal life is the reward and goal of a perfect life on earth. A perfect life, mark - the standard being perfect love to God and man" (Anderson, Redemption Truths [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], 11).​

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. That can only mean that no one is born spiritually dead.

Why? If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

All impossible without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Right, which is why we can't judge according to the outside of man, and it's God alone who sees into the heart.

Amen.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Why did Adam sin if it wasn't in his nature to do so? That's what you can't explain away.

Adam did what we all do....disobey God. He didn't pass down a thing God didn't create him with.

Yep, God created humanity and gave mankind a free will to choose.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In all the ways that count. Temper tantrums? I see those on here on this forum. :chuckle:

A myriad of them.

 

[glorydaz]

I nor anyone else can go past what scripture says. God told Adam not to and he did period.

But you do when you say we inherited a "sin nature" from Adam. Nowhere in the Bible is it spoken of. A word here "image", and word there, "in Adam" suddenly become something called "original sin'

Why did Adam disobey God my best guess was when Eve gave him the forbidden fruit Adam figured to stay with Eve he would have to disobey God also.

Sounds like that could be my neighbor next door.

The difference is Adam did NOT have to disobey God and we having a sin nature WILL.

We don't have to either, but we probably will for the same exact reasons Adam did....the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life.

You are ignoring that Adam was created in God's likeness and Adam's children was created in Adam's image and likeness. The Holy Spirit did not have IMAGE added for nothing.

You are ignoring the fact that God told Noah man was created in the image of God so no one could shed the blood of man. What does the "image of God" mean? I think it means we are not like the rest of creation (animals) for instance. We can reason, be creative, communicate, have relationships and such. We certainly can't "be like God" because that was satan's lie from the beginning.

 

[glorydaz]

A myriad of them.

Hey GM. It's good to see you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All impossible without the Holy Spirit.

It is impossible because man does not have the "will" to not sin. He has a free will and when he sins it can be blamed on nothing but himself. But that does not change the fact that he has the "ability" to inherit eternal life by living a sinless life. And since he has the ability we can see that the Lord Jesus told the lawyer that if he would keep the law then he would inherit eternal life:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Surely the Lord Jesus would not tell anyone that they could inherit eternal life by keeping the law if that person was spiritually dead. If a person is dead spiritually then no amount of law-keeping could result in eternal life. The only way that a person can be justified in the eyes of God when he is spiritually dead is by the penalty being paid--he must be "justified by blood."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hey GM. It's good to see you.

It's ALWAYS a pleasure to see you, Glorydaz.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hi Tam.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The fact that no one can remain sinless testifies to the fact that "Sinner" is our spiritual profession as a result of the Fall.

How do you explain the fact that Adam sinned?

Adam was the only man who ever lived (except Christ) who's will was free to continue having perfect fellowship with God as a sinless creation, or to relinquish that freedom. He was free to obey or disobey.

Adam's will was free and he chose to sin. So the fact that no one remains sinless is no proof that men do not possess a free will.