beloved57
Well-known member
I read just fine!
The Importance of Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I read just fine!
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe the Gospel, Calvinism is the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!
M
Man.0
Guest
Jesus also said 'The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me.' (John 14:21)
You imply that only faith is necessary, but what did James say about that?
'What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.' (James 2:14-26)
But there are believers (such as the apostles) who did not go through the 'tribulation period' of the last days; yet those apostles, those believers, have infact endured to the end. They have gone through their own personal, spiritual tribulation, and have emerged at the other side. Thus they are endurers and overcomers. They have endured personal, spiritual trials and have overcome the world, the flesh and the devil, by the grace of God, and through the faith of God.
'For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.' (1 John 5:4)
'I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him Who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one' (1 John 2:14)
Some of those who have endured and overcome, have been slain for their testimony:
'And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?' (Revelation 6:9-10)
Would you not count being slain for the testimony of Christ as having undergone tribulation?
From the start of Revelation (Revelation 2:7-11; Revelation 3:21), to its middle part (Revelation 12:11), to its end (Revelation 21:7); Jesus declares the overcomers and endurers as being the ones who will be, and are, saved.
Do you think that it is only the believers during the last days who go through tribulation? What about the disciples, did they not have to go through tribulation? Did they not say that one must go through much tribulation to enter the kingdom of God?
'When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God ' (Acts 14:21-22)
If the tribulation is only a time period during the 'last days', how is it that the disciples - who are all physically dead - went through it?
There are two tribulations. Firstly, the external tribulation that the world must go through (Revelation 3:10) - which is the one you seem to be referring to. Secondly, there is an inner tribulation, which is an individual process that each and every believer must go through. Peter went through that inner tribulation, Paul went through that inner tribulation, Jesus went through that inner tribulation. All believers must go through that inner tribulation.
What verses did you have mind in relation to John 3? Are you referring to John 3:14-16?
I've checked different bible translations and it appears there are least two versions of these verses. One that only states 'have' or 'gain', without using 'will' before it, such as:
'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.' (New King James Version)
'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.' (English Standard Version)
The other versions include 'will' before 'have' or 'gain'. Such as in these translations:
'And the Son of Man must be lifted up, just as that metal snake was lifted up by Moses in the desert. Then everyone who has faith in the Son of Man will have eternal life. God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.' (Contemporary English Version)
'No one has ever gone up into the presence of God except the One who came down from that Presence, the Son of Man. In the same way that Moses lifted the serpent in the desert so people could have something to see and then believe, it is necessary for the Son of Man to be lifted up—and everyone who looks up to him, trusting and expectant, will gain a real life, eternal life. “This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life' (MSG - The Message Bible)
In the translations which render 'have' or 'gain' without 'will', I think the meaning is ambiguous; because it does not let the reader know whether those who believe have eternal life presently, or whether they will have it at a time to come. I think that by not using the auxiliary verb of 'will', it makes the meaning ambiguous. Now, in the translations that do include 'will' it lets the reader know that is in the future tense; and thus the meaning is quite clear - that those believing in Christ will have salvation at a time to come.
In John 3, I do not think Jesus was saying that all you have to do to receive eternal life is to express a mental confirmation that He is the Son of God. Isn't that all your faith is, Daniel - a mental confirmation - something which you have produced by yourself?
What is salvation to you, Daniel; or how do you think the bible defines it? If you think that we believe and then instantly have salvation, then let me ask you: how has that salvation manifested in your life? If you presently have salvation (as a result of believing), do you still sin, Daniel? If so, how can you still sin after being perfected (which is what salvation is - being brought to a state of perfection) ?
Now on to Acts 16. Are you referring specifically to Acts 16:31, where Paul and Silas say ' “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” '? Notice that they don't say ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you are saved..." or ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will have been saved'. They say 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved' (future tense). It's a process, not an instantaneous event. The process of salvation begins with faith; and the demonstration of works (i.e. obedience) - through faith - is part of that process. What you seem to have been implying is that salvation begins and ends at having faith. That is false. Faith is only the starting point.
I say this to you, Daniel - you who believe that you've been saved by faith alone:
'Have you testified to the adversaries of God by His Spirit? Have you been betrayed by your brethren and families because of your testimony of Christ? Have you been hated by all people for His Name’s sake? And, after being hated, have you endured to the end? No? Then you are not saved. '
(Source: http://www.thepathoftruth.com/blog-wars/imperfection-tries-to-argue-against-perfection-2.htm)
In other words, where is the evidence of your faith? Where is the testifying by His Spirit; the betrayal by your brethren and family because of your testimony of Christ; the persecution; the endurance to the end.... Where is all that in your life, Daniel?
It's plain - to the one who has discernment - that your eyes are blind, and your ears are deaf. You are not of Christ at all. You simply do not belong to Him, Daniel. Even though you claim to be a Christian - you're not a genuine one. You are deceived. And perhaps the worst thing is, you don't even know that it is so.
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You need to repent and turn away from your own understanding, and your religious works - which are evident. Be honest with yourself (which you have not been) and go to God in genuine prayer, admitting in honesty that you have been deceived, and have deceived yourself, and that you desire the gift of repentance. Will you actually do this? That's the million dollar question.
The ignorant do not know they are ignorant. You do not know that you are, Daniel.
Stay in darkness if you wish. That's surely what you prefer isn't it?
'For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.' (John 3:20)
Discussions with other manufactured Christians like yourself?
I'm neither of those.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Man.O:
James did not add to faith. He only said faith without action is like a corpse without a spirit. It is perfectly reasonable, and does not add a twit to the work of Christ alone.
James did not add to faith. He only said faith without action is like a corpse without a spirit. It is perfectly reasonable, and does not add a twit to the work of Christ alone.
Daniel1611
New member
Man.0 is a works salvationist. I have no tolerance for works-salvation teachers. They are so prideful and such liars that they will probably never admit their wickedness. They are self-righteous, hellbound hypocrites.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The judgment of which you speak has not yet happened but many of those who did not believe have already died in their sins.
How could anyone die in their sins since you say that everyone's sins have already been expiated?
Brother Ducky
New member
The re-imputation of sin
Or, pretty much what you chide Calvinists about.
Ben Masada
New member
Only that, if the desperation of any one to be forgiven is placed upon Jesus, he will send him or her to forgive or get forgiveness by whom he or she offended. That's in Mat. 5:23,24.
God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.
As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been defeated, Colossians 2:15.
Jesus Christ is God's new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
When Jesus returns there will be a judgment of individuals. You will either be found in Christ or outside of Christ. If you are not in Christ your sins will be imputed back to you and you will be condemned, Romans 4:8.
It can't be any other way, unless you want to deny that Jesus is the savior of the world, John 12:47.
Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47.
Of course you don't believe that in spite of the many scriptures that says that he is.
But I fail to see any evidence that Jesus himself believed in a blood sacrifice for sin. I use these reasons to back me up:
***He was a kosher Jew who would have been disgusted by anything--even metaphorical--that entailed eating his flesh and drinking his blood, let alone be covered in it. This is a Jewish clean/unclean thing.
***He forgave plenty of folks long before his blood was spilled on Calvary.
***He believed in a God of mercy that wanted repentance, not blood spilled on the altar.
***He attacked the temple and priesthood that favored blood on the altar.
***He once quoted Hosea by asserting God "desires mercy, not sacrifice."
***He never said he was going to die for saving humankind's sins.
Only others after his death said that. In fact, the complete Christian theology of atonement was made 900 years after the crucifixion.
***And the Lord's prayer counsels forgiveness of self and others for sin--not a trip to the Divine Slaughterer on His own Son.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Aikido,
you are mistaken about the atonement thing showing up 900 years later. he was called a propitiation for our sins in Romans 3:21+.
I think you are referring to a 'satisfying the devil' or 'paying the devil' doctrine from the medieval church
you are mistaken about the atonement thing showing up 900 years later. he was called a propitiation for our sins in Romans 3:21+.
I think you are referring to a 'satisfying the devil' or 'paying the devil' doctrine from the medieval church
I don't agree because Paul was written around the 50s and 60s long after Jesus died. It reflects a theological meaning written to make sense of his death and resurrection.
It became dogma and was taken literally by some of the early Christians.
Anselm of Canterbury worked out the blood sacrifice theology.
By the way, the word "ransom" in "ransom for sin" is lutron in the original Greek. It denotes a ransom paid to release someone from captivity.
It has nothing to do with blood sacrifice.
Wow! Are you screwed up.
The word "Blood" appears in the Bible over 450 times.
"In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" Ephesians 1:7.
In other words, you do not believe me and do not think my evidence is persuasive.
I don't doubt it.
There were two traditions surrounding this issue from Genesis on and there are two strands plainly identified in the texts by researchers. The older tradition was a God of mercy who demanded repentance. This, in my opinion, is Jesus' view.
I have already presented my evidence for this. Besides Jesus himself never says he was to be a sacrifice for sin.
A newer view (also ancient but newer than the repentance/forgiveness model) came from Moses' brother Aaron and the priestly line that developed from his followers. This model stressed an angry and jealous God of justice who demanded a blood sacrifice.
Let's remember that Ephesians was written after Jesus lived and died. It reflects the later framework and it was placed over Jesus' life as a faith statement to show meaning, not actual factually correct matters.
Zeke
Well-known member
Alvin Boyd Kuhn wrote about the shadow of the third century, which exposes the literal interpretation of scripture as a fraud.
I don't see literalism as a fraud. I just regard it as not going far or deep enough.
Literalism, rationality and logic grew out of the Enlightenment of the 1700s. Myth, metaphor and other religious sacred language was given short shirt. This fact is what unites both believers as well as atheists.
We are still grappling with this question today.
I said
Help me out here. I can only find the word "atoned" in one verse in the whole bible. And it is in the old testament. Could you define it for me?
1 Sam 3:14
14 "And therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever."
(NKJ)
flintstoned
New member
Romans does not say that sin will not be imputed BACK to you! It says that "Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them."
The elect are blessed because the Lord will never count their sins against them. The Non-elect are not blessed because their sins were never atoned for to begin with, and they will be counted against them,