The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[HopeofGlory]

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Heb. 4:9 (KJV)
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Heb. 4:10 (KJV)
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Heb. 4:11 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Faith of Christ

Faith of Christ

What true Christian ever called true faith our own faith? Does not the scripture say, it is the gift of God? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. What true Christian ever called good works our own works? Does scripture say, it is God who worketh in us? Now your faith may be called good and saving, because it is God's gift thru Christ and not of ourselves. But now, suppose a man relied on his own faith, and another relied on his own works, they then are both carnally minded and are equally the same worthless, filthy rags. The moment a man seeks to be justified by his own obedience, that moment he falls from Christ, and ceases to have an interest in our savior. The same moment a man seeks to be saved or justified by his own faith, that moment he also falls from Christ. Our own faith and own obedience are at the same distance from God, and are works of the flesh. For the true Christian never thinks, or talks of being justified by his own obedience, any more than of being washed and saved by his own blood. It is by the supernatural WORD and SPIRIT of God that we are made righteous to a fullness of birth in Him, His obedience, His works, His faith, His will, His love, to His glory, that we are given eternal life. This is the new creature that is justified by faith and works of Christ and it can not be had in types or shadows. If faith is not from Christ, or works not from Christ, then they are both worthless filthy rags. Add Christ to faith, and Christ to works, and then they are but one and the same power of God unto salvation and nothing remains, but Christ in us the hope of glory.

Abraham’s faith and righteousness were not of God or in Christ. His faith was his own and his reward was earthly in every sense, looking forward to a kingdom on this earth. His righteousness was not in Christ, the true righteousness of God.

Rom. 4:1 (KJV) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as PERTAINING TO THE FLESH, hath found?
Rom. 4:3 (KJV) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom. 4:4 (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1 (KJV)

We can clearly see it was Abraham's faith and righteousness as pertaining to his flesh.

Rom. 3:9 (KJV) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom. 3:10 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Heb. 11:39 (KJV) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb. 11:40 (KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We are not blessed through Abraham but through his seed (Christ) that was in him and this is the gospel.

Gal. 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal. 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal. 3:17 (KJV) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Rom. 3:21 (KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom. 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom. 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom. 3:24 (KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom. 3:25 (KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom. 3:26 (KJV) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom. 3:27 (KJV) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom. 4:5 (KJV) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his (Christ‘s) faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom. 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom. 4:7 (KJV) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom. 4:8 (KJV) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Matt. 13:17 (KJV) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

1 John 5:11 (KJV) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 (KJV) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1 John 5:13 (KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

"When thou dost thine alms," saith he, "let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth." And again, "When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret, and thy Father which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." Why is all this secrecy? It is, that the work, may be solely from, and to, and for God, and that self may have neither beginning, nor end, or any part in it.

Faith that is not "of Christ" is from the spirit of Satan, working and ruling in our animal birth of Adam's poisoned flesh and blood. Faith from the Spirit of Christ comes to us at the birth of the new creature, created unto good works in Christ Jesus. The works of the devil in us, are our only condemnation, and the works of Christ in us, are our only justification. This is the stone, which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other Name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. What is faith in his blood, but the same thing as faith in his cross, to embrace the gospel of Christ and enter into the kingdom of God?

We must have the righteousness of Christ or he can be no Savior to us. Can you possibly be told this in stronger terms, than when Christ said, "Except a man be born again from above, of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Whosoever is born of God, doth not commit sin"; the same as saying, till a man is born of God, he is still under the power of his sinful nature. Christ's righteousness must be our righteousness and this alone is justification in the sight of God. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

There are two spirits, one is the Spirit of God, the other is the spirit that fell from God, and works contrary to him. Nothing is good in any creature, because the Spirit of God is the doer of good; nothing is evil, but that which is done by the spirit that is not from God and this is how we can know the spirits. Any spirit that speaks of eternal life (true salvation) without the faith of Christ is not of God. Our redemption consists in our being made one in Christ, born of him, that having his nature we become one with him in God, one spirit, forever. God was in Christ Jesus, reconciling the world to himself. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. So it is simple to see that our works before salvation are worthless and only "after" being placed in Christ can we perform good works.

Trust to seek salvation in anyway but being in Christ, which is the gospel of Christ will be no better than receiving the wrath of God. The old man must die, or the new man can never be made alive in Christ. This is the gospel from the beginning to the end.


Yours in Christ

Craig

 

[Kevin]

I can quote verses too...

I can quote verses too...

Matt. 25:26-30

26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'


John 15:1-2

1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


Matt. 25: 41-46

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


James 2:14-17

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

 

[c.moore]

hello Kevin
With all your scripture you gave , I know we all agree, but you are missing the whole gospel which HopeofGlory has taken precious time to show you that the Jesus in us gets the credit, not our own works , and our own powers, and our own obedience , will be counted, because our own things is not the things that God want us to do. Jesus want to guide us , Help us, work with us to obey, and not that we stand before the judgement seat , and tell God, look all the things I obeyed,and things I did,and the water baptism I did, and the look at the righteousness I kept, and did, and look God at my Holyness , and my justifycations.
Will you stand before God and boast and say I interpretated the bible the way I thought it say.
Jesus wan´t us to take the I out of your works, and replace it with Jesus , and that what we do, and we says jesus does the finished works for us, by us just trusting in HIM.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

Like I said before ,we are not christian in the natural marines taken orders, and obeying to get a promotion, into heaven.

We obey because we love Jesus,and that same Jesus which obeyed every law, and command live in us .

We are like A glove , and the glove moves, and does works because some hand is inside of the glove.
it looks like the glove is doing the works , but the power, and will to do all the works is the hand in the glove.
This is a good example of why we obey, and just like the hand inside the glove get the credit, also Jesus gets the credit for the works we let Him work with Him.
The only thing Jesus doesn`t push his hand in us without our permission, and will.

Bit the way you show your gospel is that the glove does the work by it self, and the glove get the credit, for all the works.

I hope this points out something too you.

Let God bless you.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by carri
C.Moore--

Do you think it is possible for one person to spiritually baptize another person? Look at this passage and pay careful attention to the part that I have bolded.

Matt 28:19-20 Jesus tells the disciples "Therefore go and make disciplesof all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

There are only two types of baptism that we have been discussing--water and spiritual. If Christ tells them to go baptize other people, then doesn't that make it obvious that he is talking about water baptism? And he tells them to teach the people to obey everything He has commanded, which would include the commandment He had just made to go baptizing others.

In Acts2:38 Peter tells the people to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Why would he tell them to be baptized if they don't have any choice in the matter? What makes you think that you aren't baptized by the Holy Spirit when you obey Christ and submit to water baptism? Christ told Nicodemus that no one could enter the kingdom of heaven unless he was born of water and the Spirit. Doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ when he was baptized in the water? What makes you think it is any different for us?

I don't understand your point in reciting those scriptures with regards to why the churches needed teaching by the apostles if they already loved the Lord. Please explain what you mean by them.

Carri

Yes,we can disciple people to get baptized , spiritually, and naturally .
You told me you never brought no body to the Lord, but if you ever do, you should disciple the people to show them God will for their life.
In discipling, or as I say sometimes coaching, because it a training time for them to grow,in thier walk in getting baptized in the spirit, baptized as a outward sign of the inward spiritual work,reading the bible, trusting in Jesus, prayer life with Jesus, and how to bring other to get saved, and become disciples.
So this is what I get out of Matt 28, and baptizing others.

In Acts 2, you go into your water baptism doctrine and add water, where there is no water baptism mention.
notice there is a remission of sins and this is spiritual to happen , and the washing is not water h20 that you take a bath in to clean your sins. the invisible spritual blood of jesus by faith makes you clean, and righteous, and baptized in the blood,not the water.

when Jesus got baptized, did the water wash away his sins??

Did Jesus have any sins to be washed away????

When did Jesus use his anointed powers, after the Holy spirit fell on Him, or before?????

When you talked about nicodemus, being born of the water of the word, don`t we have to first get instruction from the the Word of God because the bible is God word?????

We are not marchens, or creatures from another world that Jesus would remind us we have to be born in the natural, and that we were in a women , and when we was in the womb of our mothers , there was water in the women and so we have to be born in water in our mothers.
This makes no sence that Jesus ias talking about the water to be the womb of a women, Jesus was saying about trusting the Word of God , being born, or created out of the Word of God according to Eph:5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Everytime you see water, or baptism ,you try to make the scripture your dotrine of baptismo rituals, but that not God will .

Jesus was trying even to teach Nicodemus to get out of the natural thinking, and into the Spiritual things of God.


the disciple loved the Lord , but many times they didn`t understand, , but they waited for the Holy Spirit to come so they can know the deep things of God, and work with the anointing, being in them.
that why I gave the scriptures we need to be led by the sprit of God.

let God bless you

 

[c.moore]

carri
I have started before a thread called How do you know when A scripture is saying water baptism or spiritual baptism??

Not many people could prove which scripture are meaning water or spritual. So some where somebody is decieved or adding water baptism to where spiritual baptism should be.

maybe sence you have all the baptismo scriptures, you could put the water baptism scripture on that thread.

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=59736#post59736

peace

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by JustAChristian


Well, C.Moore,
If you'd look at your own proof text you would see that the "spirit" is not the Holy Spirit. He qualified us as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant.... the new covenant is the "spirit" It gives life, weereas, the old covenant "the letter" kills. The translation is a poor translation because "Hagios" or Holy is not in the text. It is inserted by the translator to try to fool you, and you took the bait. Look at this

Greek text and see if Hagias is in the verse. (2 Corinthians 3:6)

6 oj kai ikanwsen hmaj diakonouj kainhj diaqhkhj ou grammatoj alla pneumatoj to gar gramma apokteinei to de pneuma zwopoiei
(Interlinear Greek New Testament)

6. oj kai ikanwsen hmaj diakonouj kainhj diaqhkhj ou grammatoj alla pneumatoj to gar gramma apoktenei to de pneuma zwopoiei
(Byzantine Majority Text)

6. oj kai ikanwsen hmaj diakonouj kainhj diaqhkhj ou grammatoj alla pneumatoj to gar gramma apokteinei to de pneuma zwopoiei
(Wescott & Hort Greek Text)

Check some other's out. You want find a single one that has the Greek word for "Holy" which is Hageios.

JustAChristian

You are right about the Holy not being written in the verse, but the Spirit is the Spirit of God, and if you read the whole chapter in context , you will see that this Spirit can only be the Holy Spirit which these other bible writter kept in context and wrote Holy Spirit.
I have study this with A greek Doctor, from the university today , and he showed,me , and explained I am 100% right about the spirit being the Holy Spirit keeping the verse in context, but the word itself is only Spirit, but christian should know that God has only one Holy Spirt, and not more spirits in Him.
So I see you are the decieved, trying to use greek to hide the truth of the Word of God, and take things out of context to fit your own understandings.
I do thank God I know some greek scholars, or you would have convince me I was maybe wrong , and I would have apologized if I was wrong, I have done this before, and I have no problem to humble myself, but when I am right , I will let the person know he is wrong like you are , and I will see the fruit of the indivisual , if they are still babies , and need to grow.

You need to read the chapter with somebody that is anointed to reveal the truth to you JustAChristian.

this doesn`t look good for you what you try to interpretate.


Do you do this to allthe rest of the people on this thread mix your own undertsanding against the truth.?????

Let God bless you

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

I guess the apostles had the same trouble interpreting Christ's commands that I do, because they baptized with water (I'm not about to list scripture pointing this out, again). Too bad you and freak weren't there to point out the error of their ways!

Carri

 

[JustAChristian]

But You Have To Stay In Context.

But You Have To Stay In Context.

Originally posted by c.moore



You are right about the Holy not being written in the verse, but the Spirit is the Spirit of God, and if you read the whole chapter in context , you will see that this Spirit can only be the Holy Spirit which these other bible writter kept in context and wrote Holy Spirit.
I have study this with A greek Doctor, from the university today , and he showed,me , and explained I am 100% right about the spirit being the Holy Spirit keeping the verse in context, but the word itself is only Spirit, but christian should know that God has only one Holy Spirt, and not more spirits in Him.
So I see you are the decieved, trying to use greek to hide the truth of the Word of God, and take things out of context to fit your own understandings.
I do thank God I know some greek scholars, or you would have convince me I was maybe wrong , and I would have apologized if I was wrong, I have done this before, and I have no problem to humble myself, but when I am right , I will let the person know he is wrong like you are , and I will see the fruit of the indivisual , if they are still babies , and need to grow.

You need to read the chapter with somebody that is anointed to reveal the truth to you JustAChristian.

this doesn`t look good for you what you try to interpretate.


Do you do this to allthe rest of the people on this thread mix your own undertsanding against the truth.?????

Let God bless you

c.moore,

You have to stay with the context of the subject at hand which is, 2 Cor 3:6. In this verse you see that the context says the spirit refers to the Law of Christ. If you go elsewhere, you may find an entirely different context. When you consider the Holy Spirit and His work, you will see that He never is the instrument of cleansing. You want him to be, but that is not God's mission for Him. Let me answer further in this manner.


The most misunderstood person in the Bible, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. I want you to understand for sure that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is not an "it" or a "thing", He is a person of Deity, and is called the Holy Ghost in the King James Version (Mt. 3:11), and "Spirit" in the first letter to Timothy (1 Tim 4:1). We see him called "the Spirit of God" in (1 Cor 6:11). Likewise he is called the "Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). Each name depicts a characteristic at the time expressed, and should not be construed to be different Spirits. The American Standard and other translations almost exclusively use the term "Spirit" instead of "Ghost" which I am told is an old English term for guest, as a guest we would have at our homes. The Holy Ghost would then be a guest within us as we are or become the temple of the Holy Ghost ( 1 Cor. 6:19).

As a Spirit person, he has the ability to do things that a person, as we know it, can do. Among these is the ability to know, "...even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). He can know because He has a mind, "And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit..."( Rom. 8:27). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit did things as He wished. He had the ability to dispense various gifts as He willed" (1 Cor 12: 4-11). He has the characteristic of love (Rom. 15:30). The Bible says that " the Spirit speaketh expressly. He spoke on one occasion to Philip the evangelist (Act 8:29).He bears witness. Jesus, on one occasion said that "...he shall testify of me" (Jn.15:26). He has the ability to intercede in prayer for us, for the Bible says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (himself; the better translation), maketh intercession for us with groanings, which cannot be uttered" (Rom.26). Some hold that the Holy Spirit is but a force, but let me further assure you that He is not just a force, but a person that can be grieved (Eph 4:30). People try to deceive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:30). He can be blasphemed (Mk 3:29), and He may be insulted (Heb. 10:29). These are things which a force cannot do or receive.

In the building up of the church in the first century, the work of the Holy Spirit was to lead the apostles and preachers of Christ to prevent them from going astray in their preaching and writing. The Bible says, "But when they deliver you up take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you (Mt. 10:19,20). The apostle John in his gospel relays what Jesus taught saying, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come" (Jn. 16:13). He is never called upon to be the cleansing agent of God. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sins, not the Holy Spirit.

The Bible speaks of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and a lot of misunderstanding comes for a lack of proper study on this study. John the Baptist, on an occasion addressed an audience saying "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Mt. 3:11) We see in the Bible, that the Apostles on the first Pentecost after Christ's resurrection, (Acts 2:1-4), and the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-47) were the only ones to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Today, there is but one baptism, in water (Eph 4:4-5). Christ will baptize with fire on the day of judgement. Those who have been found unfaithful will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone for eternaty. Don't look forward to that baptism.

JustAChristian

 

[Evangelion]

Nice work with the context there, guys. :up:

 

[agape]

Jesus Christ contrasted the baptism in the spirit with John the Baptist’s baptism with water.

Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

"But" contrasts John's baptism with the baptism in holy spirit. They are two separate baptisms. Only one of the two baptisms is doctrinally applicable to the Church age (remember, there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism). John's baptism with water served as a precursor to the baptism that would come and replace, which was the baptism in the spirit. John himself understood and said as much.

Mark 1:2:
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

(3) The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

(4) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

(5) And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

(6) And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

(7) And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

(8) I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

John understood his baptism was temporary and preparatory in nature. John was sent before Christ, preparing the way before him. He spoke of the one to come who was mightier than he who would baptize with a greater baptism than his baptism of water.

Please read John 1:19-34.

According to John 1:19-34, John prepared their hearts for the coming of the redeemer, Jesus Christ. By preaching and baptizing a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, he prepared and pointed the way towards the one who would truly accomplish salvation from sin. The lamb of God, God's Son.

John's baptism with water was similar in function to the Mosaic law concerning the sin offering. The law's sin offering illustrated what the redeemer would accomplish and provide, which was the forgiveness and cleansing from sin. When God's people were baptized by John in the Jordan, they confessed their sins and their sins were covered as they were when the sin offering was offered in the Old Testament. Both pointed toward the true cleansing from sin which would become available through the the finished work of Jesus Christ.

John's baptism involved his preaching that announced the coming of the savior. God provided John and his baptism as the final preparation for Israel to receive their salvation through Jesus Christ.

John's baptism with water was not the perfect and final baptism. God's people were not saved by being water baptized in the gospel period. If that were possible, there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to have shed his blood and died on the cross. There would there be a need for any other baptism. However, both John and Jesus Christ did speak of a greater baptism to come; the baptism in the spirit, which made the temporary and preparatory baptism of water unnecessary and obsolete.

 

[drbrumley]

Carrie,

I guess the apostles had the same trouble interpreting Christ's commands that I do, because they baptized with water (I'm not about to list scripture pointing this out, again). Too bad you and freak weren't there to point out the error of their ways!

Now do we really need to get sarcastic?


JustaChristian,

The Bible speaks of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and a lot of misunderstanding comes for a lack of proper study on this study.

Very true, then explain why you continue to have this problem.

If there is a distiction between Christ's baptizing with the Spirit and the Spirit babtizing into the Body of Christ, and I beleive that there is, then there is the possibility that one does not necessarily imply the other and it is possible that the two might have taken place at different times. I want to give 10 examples of contrast that will show the Church of paul's epistles is a seperate and distinct company of the redeemed from the Church which existed at pentecost.

1. There was already a church in existence at Pentecost. The Scripture does not say that the believers at pentecost were formed into the Church. It says they were added to the church (Acts 2:41). A thing must first exist before anything can be added to it.

2.Peter's preaching at Pentecost proclaimed the fact that Isreal's LAST DAYS had arrived (Acts 2:17), not the FIRST DAYS of the Body of Christ. Isreals last days does not mean the last days of existence of the nation of Isreal, but those days predicted to usher in the glorious Kingdom.

3. The title, "the Church which is His Body," is distinctive with Paul. This expression is not used at Pentecost or in other New Testament writings.

4. Pentecost was one of the annual Jewish feast days which depict God's redemptive dealings with Isreal in the establishment of the messianic Kingdom. It is evident that pentecost must have had primary, if not exclusive, reference to Isreal.

5.Paul teaches that it was because of the casting away of Isreal that His message of reconcilation had been sent to the gentiles. But at Pentecost, Isreal had not yet been cast away. This fact is brought out in Romans 11:15,32 and Ephesians 2:17. If anything is evident from the record it is that God had not yet set Isreal aside at pentecost. The fact that Peter's first two sermons are addressed exclusively to Isreal should be sufficient proof of this, but there can be no gainsaying of this when peter plainly declares: Unto you (Isreal) first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities (Acts 3:26)

6.Not only was Isreal not cast away at pentecost, but it is here that we see the first real offer of the Kingdom to Isreal. It was becaise of their rejection of the King and the Kingdom that a new dispensation under Paul was ushered in. Evidence given in the point immediately above is proof that Isreal was stillin covenantrelation to the Lord at Pentecost. It is true that the Kingdom was preached as being "at hand" by Christ (Matthew 4:17, 10:7), but this is not to say that the kingdom could have been offered in a sense that it might have been established before the death of Christ. The prophets testified the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow (1 Peter1:11). Christ himself plainly stated this fact

7.The Body of Christ is a joint-body of Jews and Gentiles, but at Pentecost there is no mention of Gentiles. The message is directed at Isreal

8. At Pentecost Christ was the babtizer, babtizing with or in the Holy Spirit In 1 Corinthians 12:13 the Holy Spirit is the Babtizer, babtizing into Christ.

9. Perhaps the most convincing, is the fact that everything that happened at Pentecost was in direct fulfillment of prophecy.

10. At Pentecost the believers received water babtism for the remission of sins. There is no record that Paul ever practised babtism for this purpose. In fact, water babtism was not even a part of his commission (1 Corinthians 1:17).

 

[Evangelion]

drbrumley - Paul tells us that he did in fact baptise. It wasn't the main purpose of his ministry, but this doesn't mean that he didn't think it was necessary.

Why do you think he baptised people at all, by the way? What was the purpose behind it?

 

[drbrumley]

Paul's Practice if Babtism

Paul's Practice if Babtism

Why do you think he baptised people at all, by the way? What was the purpose behind it?

The answer to this question lies in a proper understanding of the Transition period of the latter half of the book of Acts.

When Paul was saved the Kingdom commission with its command to babtize was in effect. Paul himself was commanded to be babtized. The church at Antioch, where we first find any details of Paul's early ministry, was founded by Jews who were scattered by persecution from Jerusalem. This church practiced babtism the same as did the Jerusalem church. When finally Gentiles began to come into the church it was only natural that they too should be babtized. Paul had received no command from the Lord either to babtize or not to babtize. On his journeys Paul always went to the Jewish synagogue first and it was natural that he would babtize Jews who believed. When the Gentiles then had the message preached to them we are not to suppose that Paul seperated the Jewish and Gentile believers into two groups or two churches-in fact, the secret of Pauls ministry was that God was making no difference between these two groups. But water babtism was not the only Jewish practice which was involved in Paul's ministry at this time.



Paul babtized and permitted water babtism among his converts for the same reason that God permitted the Gentiles to exercise the sign gifts of miracles, tongues, and healing. It was "BECAUSE OF THE JEWS." During the transition period the church of God was emerging from its predominantly Jewish constituency to a perdominantly Gentile constituency. During this transition period, which covers the last half of the Book of Acts, many things were done for the benefit of and out of deference to the Jews. Paul circumcised Timothy 'BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" (Acts 16:1-3). Paul performed a Jewish vow at Jerusalem "BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" (Acts 21:20-26). The Gentiles were not to eat meat offered to idols, and abstain from blood and things strangled "BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" (Acts 15:29; 21:25). God gave Gentiles the sign gifts "BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" (1 Corinthians 1:22 and 14:22). Likewise, during the transition period, it was "BECAUSE OF THE JEWS"- that water babtism was permitted among Pauls converts. However, after Acts 28, when God no longer dealt with Isreal as a distinct nation, there was no longer any need for the "signs." Paul no longer exercised the sign gift of healing (2 tim. 4:20; 1 tim. 5;23 cf. with Acts 19:11, 12; and Phil. 2:25-27). Even as the sign gifts ceased, just so, water babtism ceased as a sign to the Jews of Gentile conversion. Paul finally declared that there was only ONE babtism (Eph. 4:5). Those who do not understand that this babtism excludes all others are often inconsistent in theit theological reasoning. When Paul says ONE babtism they often conclude that there can yet be another. There can be no doubt as to which baptism is meant in Eph. 4:5. 1 Cor.12:13 says that we are put into the Body of Christ by the baptism of the Spirit. Romans 12:5 says that to be in the Body of Christ is to be "in Christ." Romans 8:1 says if we are "in Christ" there is no more condemnation; in other words, we are saved. Eph. 1:13 says that upon beleiving we were sealed in Christ with or by the Holy Spirit of promise.If the baptism of Eph. 4:5 is not the Spirit baptizing believers into Christ, then no one could be saved. Since there can be only ONE babtism, and since there is a baptism of the Spirit, as the operation of God unto salvation, this is the ONLY baptism operational today, all others are excluded. Why baptize with water? And since gentiles were baptized "BECAUSE OF THE JEWS" during the Acts period, it is not only no longer necessary, but it would be making two baptisms operational in this administration when God says there should be one.

More later, hands startin to hurt. God Bless!

 

[Evangelion]

What's "babtism"?

 

[Pilgrimagain]

it's when Barbara Bush dunks you in the pool.

 

[Evangelion]

LOL!

Oh boy, there are some days when you are really on the ball, Pilgrim!

And this is one of them!

 

[c.moore]

Let break this scripture down into it`s context ,so you can see the truth of the verse.

2Co:3:3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, :written not with ink ,butwith the Spirit of the living God ; not in tables of stone, butin fleshy tables of the heart. 2Co:3:4: And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co:3:5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter,, but of the spirit : for the letter killeth, the spirit giveth life.

We know that God is a Spirit Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

What spirit is that which is God ????

the letter like you said is the law , but if the law is gone so it doesn`t kill us , don`t we need to be instructed , and led by the Spirit of God????ß

I think when you try to answer these question , you might see that this spirit is not a demonic spirit, or another god spirit, but it is the Spirit of God that gives life, and that spirit which wrote the bible and raised Jesus from the dead that also quicken our body.
this same Spirit of God teaches us, and guide us.

I hope this help you to understand the context of 2 Cor 3:6 that this is the Holy Spirit, and the other translations of the bibles I gave has no reason to want to fool somebody, to decieve people in believing in another doctrine, that doen`t make sence.
if these other bible , was like the new worlds JHW bible, I could maybe understand why the author might fool somebody.
These bible I gave you are translation that have the same context as the King James bible,just more plainly interpretated to easy understand the correct meaning.

Let God bless you

 

[c.moore]

Carri where did you point out the scripture that was water baptism , and the spiritual baptism????

peace

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Paul's Practice if Babtism

Re: Paul's Practice if Babtism

Originally posted by drbrumley

drbrumley,

I have cut your post, but I will be answering it in the following.

Very true, then explain why you continue to have this problem.

If there is a distinction between Christ's baptizing with the Spirit and the Spirit baptizing into the Body of Christ, and I believe that there is, then there is the possibility that one does not necessarily imply the other and it is possible that the two might have taken place at different times. I want to give 10 examples of contrast that will show the Church of Paul's epistles is a separate and distinct company of the redeemed from the Church which existed at Pentecost.

1. There was already a church in existence at Pentecost. The Scripture does not say that the believers at Pentecost were formed into the Church. It says they were added to the church (Acts 2:41). A thing must first exist before anything can be added to it.

The Bible tells us of the "foundation" of the church (Ephesians 2:20). This constituted the apostles and saints of God on that Pentecost day. When did Jesus begin to "build" his church? It was the same time that he gave Peter "the keys of the Kingdom". Keys denote opening of the lock or door. Peter unlocked a great lock on the infamous day of Pentecost. It was a lock that had never been unlocked before. By it, those who would repent and be baptized for the remission of sins would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their sins would be washed away. As the apostle Peter began to preach, the people listened attentively. Learning that they had been a part of the crucifixion of the Messiah, they were "pricked in their hearts and answered, "Men and brethren what shall we do?" Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and they would be recipients of the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us that "they that gladly received the word were baptized, and the Lord added to the church such as were being saved." Each baptized person was added to the church. There were no exclusions. There was no voting on membership or periods of probation. All this began on the day of Pentecost, for this the first time that Peter and the apostles ever used the "keys of the Kingdom" to open the door to salvation.

2.Peter's preaching at Pentecost proclaimed the fact that Israel's LAST DAYS had arrived (Acts 2:17), not the FIRST DAYS of the Body of Christ. Isreals last days does not mean the last days of existence of the nation of Isreal, but those days predicted to usher in the glorious Kingdom.

Peter says, "...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). This does not exclude any race or nationality of people. The same promise is made for the Gentiles as for the Jews. The one message of salvation was sufficient for all people. There is no distinct message to be delivered later.

3. The title, "the Church which is His Body," is distinctive with Paul. This expression is not used at Pentecost or in other New Testament writings.

]Neither is the term "...the Lord's supper" used in Acts 2, which later we see Paul using (1 Cor. 11:20). Does this mean the Jewish converts did not know about the memorial feast, what it is called or that it was applicable to them? Of course not. Not being a part of a certain context does not necessarily negate a subject entirely. The whole of anything is the sum of it's parts. The Lord added to the church, and elsewhere we see that the church is "His body" (i.e. Col. 1:18). To speak of the church is to speak of the body of Christ in all context. Never is the church not the "body of Christ".

Neither is the term "...the Lord's supper" used in Acts 2, which later we see Paul using (1 Cor. 11:20). Does this mean the Jewish converts did not know about the memorial feast, what it is called or that it was applicable to them? Of course not. Not being a part of a certain context does not necessarily negate a subject entirely. The whole of anything is the sum of it's parts. The Lord added to the church, and elsewhere we see that the church is "His body" (i.e. Col. 1:18). To speak of the church is to speak of the body of Christ in all context. Never is the church not the "body of Christ".

Peter speaks: "... for the promise is to you and your children and as many as are afar off..." (Acts 2:39). Who are the "afar off"? Paul said that he came to preach to them that were "afar off" as well as to them that were nigh (Eph 2:17). Who were the "nigh"? Well, you need only to read Acts 2:39 to see that it means the Jews. So, Paul preached to both the Jews and the Gentiles the same gospel. Suffice it to say, that what is necessary to prove my basis is found, but let us continue.

4. Pentecost was one of the annual Jewish feast days which depict God's redemptive dealings with Isreal in the establishment of the messianic Kingdom. It is evident that pentecost must have had primary, if not exclusive, reference to Isreal.

Peter speaks: "... for the promise is to you and your children and as many as are afar off..." (Acts 2:39). Who are the "afar off"? Paul said that he came to preach to them that were "afar off" as well as to them that were nigh (Eph 2:17). Who were the "nigh"? Well, you need only to read Acts 2:39 to see that it means the Jews. So, Paul preached to both the Jews and the Gentiles the same gospel. Suffice it to say, that what is necessary to prove my basis is found, but let us continue.

5.Paul teaches that it was because of the casting away of Isreal that His message of reconcilation had been sent to the gentiles. But at Pentecost, Isreal had not yet been cast away. This fact is brought out in Romans 11:15,32 and Ephesians 2:17. If anything is evident from the record it is that God had not yet set Isreal aside at pentecost. The fact that Peter's first two sermons are addressed exclusively to Isreal should be sufficient proof of this, but there can be no gainsaying of this when peter plainly declares: Unto you (Isreal) first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities (Acts 3:26).

Still, the message that Paul preached is the same that Peter preached (Eph 2:17).

6.Not only was Isreal not cast away at pentecost, but it is here that we see the first real offer of the Kingdom to Isreal. It was becaise of their rejection of the King and the Kingdom that a new dispensation under Paul was ushered in. Evidence given in the point immediately above is proof that Isreal was still in covenant relation to the Lord at Pentecost. It is true that the Kingdom was preached as being "at hand" by Christ (Matthew 4:17, 10:7), but this is not to say that the kingdom could have been offered in a sense that it might have been established before the death of Christ. The prophets testified the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow (1 Peter1:11). Christ himself plainly stated this fact

Still, there is only one gospel to all creation (Matthews 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). No evidence that Peter and Paul had separate revelations.

7.The Body of Christ is a joint-body of Jews and Gentiles, but at Pentecost there is no mention of Gentiles. The message is directed at Isreal

"...and those that are afar off..." Acts 2:39, refers to the Gentiles.

8. At Pentecost Christ was the babtizer, babtizing with or in the Holy Spirit In 1 Corinthians 12:13 the Holy Spirit is the Babtizer, babtizing into Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the agent of God working the work appointed of God. He is never a cleansing agent (Acts 22:16). The baptism for believers is that which cleanses. The Christian is "purified in obeying the truth" (1 Peter 1:22), not by Holy Spirit baptism. Only when believers "obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine" were they made free from sins and servants of righteousness (Romans 6:17-18). No action by the Holy Spirit made them free from sin and servants of righteousness.

9. Perhaps the most convincing, is the fact that everything that happened at Pentecost was in direct fulfillment of prophecy.

True

10. At Pentecost the believers received water babtism for the remission of sins. There is no record that Paul ever practised babtism for this purpose. In fact, water babtism was not even a part of his commission (1 Corinthians 1:17).

If Paul preached the same message to both Jews and Gentiles, as Ephesians 2:17 relates, the same baptism to both groups results. If not, why not? He has no commission that is different than the other apostles. His primary thrust was to the Gentiles, but he is seen preaching to the Jews after you so-called commission of 1 Corinthians 1:17, (see Acts 28:17-29). Conclusion, there is one gospel for the whole world. One message of salvation intended for the "nigh and the afar off". The apostles, including Paul, preached the same message throughout their generation.

JustAChristian[/B