The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[geralduk]

Being BORNagain "...of the WATER and of the Spirit" is not BAPTISM!
For the water is the WORD of God.
"For without faith it is impossible to please God" and how does faith come?
By HEARING and by that we understand also means UNDERSTANDING the Word of God"
For to be HEARERS only but not understanding the message how can one respond?
More:"By the foolishness of preaching it has pleased God to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE what? that which is SAID.
"fOR HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE UNLESS THEY HAVE HEARD and how can they hear unless it is preached......"
Jesus when seekign to wash PETERS feet told him he was WASHED already save that his feet needed washing.
Showing that the Word had ALREADY done its part as he had recived it but it was his WALK that had more closely to be conformed.
More:
The children of ISREAL were ALREADY saved by the BLOOD but were SEPERATED from thier bondage by the waters of the red sea.
So too are we SAVED not by ANY works be they baptism or no but by GRACE and that through FAITH and that too beign a GIFT so no man can boast.
There fore as it is written without contradiction "that there is NO remission of sins without the shedding of BLOOD"
The blood of Christ APPLIED INTernally AND unseen by the HOLY SPIRIT according to the Word of God even as it was to them in shadow.
By the which we are then RECONCILED to God by the blood of His cross"
Therefore it si the BLOOD that removes sin applied INTERNALLY to the HEART.
NOT the washing of the outward body by WATER.

The LORD WAS baptised in WATER to fullfill ALL rightousness.
Paul speaks of TWO forms of RIGHTOUSNESS.
1) The RIGHTOUSNESS of the LAW.
2) The rightousness that is NOT of the LAW but comes by FAITH.
The Lord then fullfiled BOTH.
bY THE FULLFILLING OF THE LAW and showing its RIGHTOUSNESS.
and WALKING by FAITH according to the will of God and the scriptures CONFORMED His BODY to that will of God even unto DEATH by FAITH.
To the first we have NO part.
and by the OBEDIENCE of one we are set free from the curse of the law.
To the second we must conform seing that in doing so we are CONFORMING our BODIES to that which has been ALREADY wrought in our hearts and now
openly confess before men.
and the sin that was dealt with INWARDLY by the BLOOD through faith God now gives WITNESS to OPENLY by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Not that we have EARNED that gift in any way for we are now fullfilling not the LAW of sin and death but "the LAW OF Christ" and so even as we are conformed unto His DEATH so we are by that law conformed unto His LIFE.

Therefore do we know we are saved by FAITH and by NO work of the flesh.
For cannot be denied that to be BAPTISED in WATER it isd the FLESH that si being BAPTISED?
Therefore HOW can a WORK of the flesh JUSTYFY us before God?
But if it is a WORK of the Spirit which in obedience we conform our BODIES then we are justyfied not by our work but by our faith.
For what is the work?
For is it not written that we are being BURIED with Christ?
So HOW can we be BURIED...........WITH Christ if not by FAITH!"?
and if of faith it is not of ourslevs but of God in RESPONSE to our faith in acordance with His will.
Therefore in ALL ways BAPTISM is a WORK of FAITH as after JAMES and not of PAUL.
and if of FAITH it is an OPEN witness and TESTOMANY to what God has ALREADY done and will do in us and through us.
and to which God gladly confirms. and gives witness to not only to our own spirit but to all those who have eyes and ears to see it.

 

[JustAChristian]

My Article Make More Sense Than Yours.

My Article Make More Sense Than Yours.

Originally posted by geralduk
Being BORNagain "...of the WATER and of the Spirit" is not BAPTISM!

geralduk post an extended article that supports the denominational view on baptism. It is poorly written with many mispelled words. I am replacing his article with a better article that deals with truthful conclusions showing clearly that baptism is essential to salvation.

Though I can agree, somewhat, with that you have said, I find it impossible to conclude, as you have, one thing. You said that "water" means "word" in the formula for the new birth. Why did Jesus use the term "water" if he meant "word"? Wouldn't it have been simpler to use "water" instead of "word"? Is Jesus the author of confusion? No, I don't think he wanted us to be confused. I believe he wanted to say water. When the eunuch was going along in the chariot. Did he come upon a body of word or water? It was water. Simple wet water. What did he say? See, here is "word." No, he said, See here is water!!! The word that Philip taught him prompted him to mention the water, because Philip preached unto him Jesus. You can't preach Jesus without preaching "water" and preach it correctly. The eunuch had no reason to mention the water is it was not essential. Do you see how much trouble you create for yourself when you listen to denominational teachings instead of the Bible? Why do you want to persist on such a false doctrine? I believe you have done this to deny the essentiality of immersion (baptism) in water for the remission of sin (Acts 2:38). I further believe that you do not believe Jesus knew what he was saying, and that baptism has nothing to do with the new birth. Am I correct in my conclusions?

Allow me to give my fullest understanding on the doctrine of the new birth. From this let us see if we can come to a harmonizing deduction with respect of this most important doctrine.

Jesus taught that in order to be born again, one must be baptized saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of WATER and of the SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" Jesus gives the two elements that help to produce the New Birth. One is water and the other is Spirit. With respect to water, Jesus is merely saying that passing through the water, following the message of the Spirit, through the word of God, places us on the other side unto salvation in the Kingdom of God. Like the Israelites, who had to cross the Red Sea and the Jordan river, before they reached a secure haven, which are both "types of water baptism" we too must be baptized in order to enter into the kingdom of Christ Jesus. Being water baptized is necessary in order to obey God (Matthew 28:19; Acts 10:48) This is what the Bible teaches on the subject.

On one occasion Jesus taught that His words were spirit and life (John 6:63). Since He made that statement, we can readily conclude that in some manner His word has the capacity to produce life. Such was Peter's understanding also (1 Peter 1:22-23). We are reborn when we do what the word says. That is how we are born again of the word. How does this happen? How much of or what part of the word will produce life? Well, I believe we can accept that whatever Jesus has taught we can not reject or deny, right? In essence, all that is taught of Jesus is for our acceptances, still with me? All that He has said will be essential unto a new life! Yes, one is born again by the word, that which is spirit and life. But you or I can't be born again unless we are willing to hear and obey the gospel; obeying it by doing what it says. Only then, I firmly believe, will there be produced "a new birth." Jesus commissioned His apostles to go forth into all the world with a universal message called the gospel of salvation (Matthew 28:18-20; Romans 1:16). Paul told the elders at Ephesus that he had shunned none of this gospel calling it all the counsel of God (Acts 20:28). Like Peter, before him, who commanded under inspiration, Cornelius to be baptized, Paul also expressed its essentiality for spiritual blessings (Acts 19:1-6). Thus, there is no spiritual blessings, such as salvation or being born again without baptism.

In the New Testament we see where Christians have undergone the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" in baptism (Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 6:11; Eph 5:26; 1 Peter 3:21). Where is salvation located? Salvation is located in Christ Jesus. The fact that salvation is located "in" Christ, and the fact that one is baptized "into" Christ is positive proof that baptism is essential to salvation. If not, why not? Baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16). We are baptized into the body, the church (1 Cor. 12:12,13; Eph. 1:22,23; Eph. 4:4; 1 Cor. 12:20,27). Baptism is associated with the new birth and regeneration (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:5).

The term regeneration is borrowed from the natural or biological realm. It means literally to be born again; thus it involves the communication of a new life. Except one be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3, KJV). The Lord adds that this is a birth of water and Spirit (John 3:5). Paul writes that God "saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). Thus when we are cleansed in the water of baptism and receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit, our new life in Christ begins (2 Cor. 5:17). There is no example of any one in the New Testament epistles receiving any spiritual blessing without first having the spiritual washing found in baptism. I believe, respectfully, that one must obey baptism in water for the remission of sins. Obedience is essential to salvation. We do not speak of works of law-keeping (Rom. 3:20) nor of works of our own righteousness (Titus 3:5). These cannot save.

Jesus is declared to be the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him (Heb. 5:9). Men must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). Always remember that saving faith is obedient faith. We would never think of demanding anything from God because we had been baptized. Rather, because of his gracious gift, we respond with loving obedience (John 14:15). To reject the command to be immersed is to demonstrate a lack of faith and love for the Savior (Acts 10:48).

JustAChristian

:angel:

 

[Kevin]

Excellent post!

Excellent post!

JustAChristian,

I just wanted to comment on your posting. They are very, very good. Excellent use of logic and scripture. God bless you.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Excellent post!

Re: Excellent post!

Originally posted by Kevin
JustAChristian,

I just wanted to comment on your posting. They are very, very good. Excellent use of logic and scripture. God bless you.

Kevin,
Thanks for the encouragement. Looking forward to seeing some of your new entries.

JustAChristian
____________________________________-

 

[JustAChristian]

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM

Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)

There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)

The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)

At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.

JustAChristian

 

[rene]

Something to think about -

Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized? never baptized? Was Jesus baptized? Since we are to follow His example - how would one suggest that baptism isn't part of the equation for a believer?

 

[Kevin]

Thanks friend

Thanks friend

JustAChristian,

Kevin,
Thanks for the encouragement. Looking forward to seeing some of your new entries.

I gotta be careful about posting.... last time it comsumed a lot of my time and I ended up neglecting my family. I had to abruptly pull out of debating. But that's what happens when you participate in more than one thread at a time. My bad. I might start again on this thread though.... we'll see.

And again, you are doing a fabulous job. Fabulous.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by rene
Something to think about -

Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized? never baptized? Was Jesus baptized? Since we are to follow His example - how would one suggest that baptism isn't part of the equation for a believer?

Believers are those who have been justified by faith in Jesus not by water. Hebrews tells us: Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "

Jesus is the author of our faith not some water...water is used merely as a symbol as a witness to our changed life. For water cannot save for water is of the created but Jesus is God and is able to save.

 

[JustAChristian]

Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Originally posted by rene
Something to think about -

Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized? never baptized? Was Jesus baptized? Since we are to follow His example - how would one suggest that baptism isn't part of the equation for a believer?

Rene, You indeed post a good question. We can not find one example of anyone being called a Christian who was not baptized. This is because the church, which is a body of spiritual believers baptized into Christ, consisted of only Christians. On being immersed into Christ, the Lord added them to the Church (Acts 2:47). There were no denominations in the 1st century to compete for the souls of men. There was only the Lord's one church (Eph. 4:4-5).

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness (matthew 3:15). The Bible states that all of God's Laws are righteousness ( Ps 119:172) so it stands to reason that Jesus needed to be immersed inorder to do what God required by Law. I hope this gives you better insight to the meaning of baptism, however, I feel you are quite close to the full answer already. Have you been immersed for the remission of sins? If not, find someone who will do this for you. I suggess a member of the churches of Christ in your community. Have a great rest of the day!

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Have you been immersed for the remission of sins? If not, find someone who will do this for you. I suggess a member of the churches of Christ in your community. Have a great rest of the day!

JustAChristian[/B]

See ladies & gentleman the evidence is clear. JustWater has encouraged water over a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Water cannot do anything but get you wet. Jesus however saves. Stopping pointing people to water!

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Re: Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Originally posted by Freak
See ladies & gentleman the evidence is clear. JustWater has encouraged water over a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Water cannot do anything but get you wet. Jesus however saves. Stopping pointing people to water!

I have never point anyone to anything that they should avoid. Jesus pointed to the water when he commissioned the apostles to go and baptize. He pointed to the water when Paul was inspired to tell how we are united to the Lord in baptism. He pointed to the water when Peter was inspired to write that baptism now saves. He pointed to the water when He said that we can enjoy eternal fellowship beside the river of life. The Bible is just flowing with water, but many can not come to understand that because they do not have an honest heart of acceptance of the Word. Yes, mere water does not save. I never said that it does, but when you couple it with the spiritual blessings promised by Jesus Christ for those that will obey Him, water avails immensely. Why don't you go down into the water in faith in the cleansing power of the blood and come up to walk in newness of life. It is a noble decision for anyone who would be saved.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Re: Re: Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized?

Originally posted by JustAChristian
I have never point anyone to anything that they should avoid.

You preach a false Gospel. You point to water.

Jesus pointed to the water

You can't be serious. How many times did Jesus, "Come unto me." He was God, He is able to save. Water will simply get you wet.

The Bible is just flowing with water

No the Bible is filled with Jesus! Get your mind off water.

Yes, mere water does not save.

Then stop confusing everyone by stressing on the water. Just speak of Jesus as the "author & finisher" of our faith.

water avails immensely

Prayer to God avails much. Water merely gets you wet.

Why don't you go down into the water in faith

I did something much much better---I went to Jesus. You can go the water, I choose Jesus.

It is a noble decision for anyone who would be saved.

There you go again talking about water.

You JustWater need to be saved by Jesus. Today you may if you trust in Him and not in water.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Thanks friend

Re: Thanks friend

Originally posted by Kevin
JustAChristian,



I gotta be careful about posting.... last time it comsumed a lot of my time and I ended up neglecting my family. I had to abruptly pull out of debating. But that's what happens when you participate in more than one thread at a time. My bad. I might start again on this thread though.... we'll see.

And again, you are doing a fabulous job. Fabulous.

I know what you mean, Kevin. My wife is very patient with me, and knows that what I am doing on the computer is very important, but I know I can often neglect family matters and tie the phone line up a long time ( I don't have DSL). I try as best as I can not to be neglectful. Let me direct you to my latest article that I posted a few minutes ago entitled "Being Grateful In The Knowledge Of The Truth." Let me know if you feel there is error or that something should be reconsidered. Have a great rest of the day.

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

JustWorks,

When you praise--do you praise Jesus for saving you or water?

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by Freak
JustWorks,

When you praise--do you praise Jesus for saving you or water?

You again, "Circle Man"?

JustAChristian

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by JustAChristian
You again, "Circle Man"?

JustAChristian

Justwater--just curious do you praise Jesus or water for your salvation?

 

[Kevin]

JustAChristian,

Let me direct you to my latest article that I posted a few minutes ago entitled "Being Grateful In The Knowledge Of The Truth." Let me know if you feel there is error or that something should be reconsidered.

I read it and certainly agree with it. I posted a lengthier response in the thread. :up:

 

[rene]

Freak wrote: Believers are those who have been justified by faith in Jesus not by water. Hebrews tells us: Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "

My reply: When keeping one's eyes on Jesus, what He did, what He instructed - baptism is part of it.

Jesus was baptised Those that followed Him and that he left to help spread the gospel also taught on it as well (see Matt. 3, Matt. 28:19, Mark 1, John 4:1, Acts 2:38, etc.)

When Jesus teaches it - that makes it important.

 

[rene]

Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized

Re: Is there any person within the NT that is called a Christian that wasn't baptized

I have been baptized. The simple approach and question is one that I came to after years of watching people get into 'leadership' roles within some congregations to lead in some area - but couldn't seem to follow the very first thing that Jesus did before He even started His ministry upon this earth.

How can one be an example - when they haven't followed the first step that Jesus took in ministry? How can any suggest that they have started a ministry that is based upon Jesus when they haven't followed His example about baptism?

Jesus indeed saves - and not suggesting that somehow the water has more power or more important than the blood of Jesus which covers all sins - the ultimate of sin offerings. Just makes me wonder how any can suggest anything about baptism as not important - when Jesus gave the instruction. If someone wants to present themselves as some sort of 'authority' - but is picking and choosing what they decide is important vs just following Jesus, His example, His words - not the sort to seriously consider.

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Rene, You indeed post a good question. We can not find one example of anyone being called a Christian who was not baptized. This is because the church, which is a body of spiritual believers baptized into Christ, consisted of only Christians. On being immersed into Christ, the Lord added them to the Church (Acts 2:47). There were no denominations in the 1st century to compete for the souls of men. There was only the Lord's one church (Eph. 4:4-5).

Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness (matthew 3:15). The Bible states that all of God's Laws are righteousness ( Ps 119:172) so it stands to reason that Jesus needed to be immersed inorder to do what God required by Law. I hope this gives you better insight to the meaning of baptism, however, I feel you are quite close to the full answer already. Have you been immersed for the remission of sins? If not, find someone who will do this for you. I suggess a member of the churches of Christ in your community. Have a great rest of the day!

JustAChristian

 

[rene]

Freak writes: See ladies & gentleman the evidence is clear. JustWater has encouraged water over a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Water cannot do anything but get you wet. Jesus however saves. Stopping pointing people to water!

My reply: You can't be serious with these words. That isn't what was suggested and is a total misrepresentation.

BTW - Jesus spoke and taught of baptism. He instructed and His apostles also taught of the need for baptism. That you seem to want to attempt to attack any that suggest that a believer needs to follow these teachings as Jesus instructed - makes me wonder what kind of teaching you follow.