Just,
My replies are in bold.
I will be answering HopeofGlory on his last post
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Faith is believing the Word of God and it is by grace through faith that we are saved and not of works.
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Yes, it takes faith to believe the word of God. The message of Christ accompanied by many signs and wonders were written down in order that you might believe and believing have life in His name ( John 20:30-31). You say that we are saved by grace through faith and that is true, but the grace only comes by the work on our part of believing. So, we have a work to do and that is to believe (John 6:28). We can’t get around it. We have godly works to do in order to have life. Baptism along with repentance and confession go hand and hand with believing. In fact, they are all encompassed in believing. It is a figure of speech called a “synecdoche.” That is when one word stands for the whole of anything. We could say, “It is snowing in the city!” and that covers the fact that it is snowing on Main Street, Central Ave., Broadway, Madison Ave., Washington Blvd., and all the streets and avenues. We don’t have to name wherever it is snowing, we just say “the city” and that covers it. You should be able to understand that. Check it out in the “Webster’s Unabridged.” Baptism is essential as it is a part of faith.
What is your definition of faith? If it is more than believing then I disagree. We are saved by the faith of Christ not our own.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the 'faith of Jesus Christ', even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal. 2:16
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the 'faith of Christ', the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil. 3:9
The signs and wonders were to manifest Christ to unbelieving Israel for the Jews require a sign but we walk by faith not by sight.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 1 Cor. 1:22
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:23
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 2:22
I believe the gospel that Christ died for my sins therefore signs are of no use to me. Water baptism was performed to 'manifest' Christ to Israel. It was a visable sign (see John 1:31) but I walk by faith so water baptism is of no use to me. How can you condemn me even though I believe Christ died for my sins? The 'new' testament is faith in His shed blood (Matt 26:28) and it is my testimony for remission and nothing else is required.
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25
To declare, I say, '''at this time''' his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27
The scriptures tells us plainly that salvation is not by 'works of righteousness' regardless of what you say. Baptism therefore is by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) not of the flesh for 'the flesh profiteth nothing' (John 6:63) no matter what the weather.
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My purpose is to have all men see the fellowship of the mystery according to the eternal purpose. I believe that Christ died for my sins and through that faith I have received grace, it has nothing what so ever to do with water. Water baptism was for remission before the death of Christ so now eternal remission is by His shed blood. It is easily seen in old testament rituals that water prepared the priest to receive the sacrifice and when the priest applied the blood the people receive remission without water baptism. Water baptism was a priestly requirement under the law superceded by the blood of Christ. Christ was baptized under the law as our high Priest and having applied the blood for eternal remission He is seated at the right hand of God. The doctrine of Pentecost was prepratory in the sense that it prepared the way of the Lord. The Baptist's ministry was to manifest Christ to Israel but he was beheaded. The apostles completed that mission when all the nations of Israel gathered at Pentecost. Paul is called after Pentecost and receives revelations by the Spirit of Christ. Paul is the first apostles to reveal the new testament for remission and not once does Paul preach a baptism of repentance for remission. The Gospel of Christ was progessively revealed and fulfilled with Paul.
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We see a lot of “types and shadows” under the Old Testaments. As washings were preparatory to offerings and sacrifices, so baptism is essential to offerings and spiritual sacrifices under the New Testament Law of Christ. This Law was initiated at Pentecost and continues today. It is the same Law that Jesus said would be first delivered at Jerusalem then Judea and the uttermost parts of the world (Like 24:46-47; Acts 1:8; Acts 26:20). All the apostles preached the same message, beginning at Jerusalem. Paul preached the same “...first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” (Acts 26:20 AV). So what Paul preached when he was at Jerusalem he preached at all places. There was no second message exclusively for him. You try to make it appear that since Luke was not lead by inspiration to express the same statement made by Peter on Pentecost “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” for Paul that Paul did not have the same message. I am sure there are a lot of statements made by Peter that Paul did not make and vice versa. That proves nothing. I have shown how the same message was made by both and by all the apostles at all times. There is no dispensation of any mystery for Paul. That is Scofield doctrine found in the footnotes of many King James Version of the Bible.
Water baptism was a type under the old testament, it was preformed by the Baptist before the new testament was effectual. The 'law of Christ' has nothing to do with water baptism but rather that remission is receive through His death. Water baptism is not mentioned in any of the references you gave.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal. 6:7
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Gal. 6:8
You have sown to your flesh in water baptism yet everlasting life is of the Spirit.
The message of remission in the name of Jesus was first preached by the Baptist but first given to 'all nations' at Jerusalem
when 'all nations' of Israel gathered there. Try reading the bible for what it actually says not what you want it say.
Paul did not preach a baptism of repentance for remission but instead said that Christ did not send him to baptize.
I am not here to argue dispensationalism and I don't have a scofield bible.
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What is the difference and when did this change take place?
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One was commanded by God and given by the Law giver Moses and died with the death of the Law of Moses. The other was given by God through Christ and remains as a part of the gospel of salvation (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16).
Your "baptism of repentance" began with the Baptist. I want to know when the change in water baptism that you believe in occurred. Was it after the cross or before and how did the change benefit man.
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Men by their hands baptize yet the true Church is a building made without hands.
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You are comparing apples and oranges. Neither one of these statement relate to the other.
You would get a “F” in hermeneutics if you bought this statement to class. Of course, men baptize with their hands. What did you expect them to use, their feet? The spiritual house of God is made up of Christians. People who have been added to the family of God through obedience of faith (Romans 1:5; Acts 2:47).
Your 'class' is of no use to me and if it gave me an "F" it would mean nothing. It matters not what you use to water baptize with because it is of non effect.
"Spiritual in nature not visible, the circumcision of Christ is not of the flesh and so is His baptism."
When on sees the spiritual application of water baptism one sees the spiritual circumcism in putting off the “old man of sin.” Where is the old man put off? It is in water baptism for the remission of sins (Romans 6:3-6).
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:3 (KJV)
Note the contrast! It says baptized "into Jesus" as compared to "into water". How are we to get into Jesus?..."For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13) (KJV)...and it is the "one" baptism (Eph. 4:5) for us today.
Now, give me your proof text where anyone baptized in water were placed into Christ.
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This operation of God places us into His body, it does not give us power as did the gift of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. I am glad that you believe water baptism has no power but neither does your obedience to it...
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On the contrary, I believe water baptism has a lot of power! It is the command of Christ and that says a lot to me. It is effective if I use it correctly. If I don’t obey it I will be lost eternally. Yes, that says a lot to me, and not only me by millions before me.
You believe a lie! Christ did not command 'water' baptism. It does not matter one bit want YOU DO water baptism has no power. Millions would disagree with your belief and some would even label you as a heretic.
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therefore it is by 'faith of the Son of God' displayed by His obedience to the Cross and not of ourselves.I agree that 'our faith' will not save. Man's works and his faith are both fility rags but if we believe the words that testify of Christ then His faith is ours.
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You talk in circles. You need to define your premise better.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. What true Christian ever called good works our own works? Does scripture say, it is God who worketh in us? Now your faith may be called good and saving, because it is God's gift thru Christ and not of ourselves. But now, suppose a man relied on his own faith, and another relied on his own works, they then are both carnally minded and are equally the same worthless, filthy rags. The moment a man seeks to be justified by his own obedience, that moment he falls from Christ, and ceases to have an interest in our savior. The same moment a man seeks to be saved or justified by his own faith, that moment he also falls from Christ. Our own faith and own obedience are at the same distance from God, and are works of the flesh. For the true Christian never thinks, or talks of being justified by his own obedience, any more than of being washed and saved by his own blood. It is by the supernatural WORD and SPIRIT of God that we are made righteous to a fullness of birth in Him. His obedience to the cross, His works in fulfilling the law, His faith in being raised from the dead, His love for us by giving His life. We must become a new creature in Christ who is justified by the faith and works of Christ.
That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Cor. 1:29 (KJV)
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Cor. 1:30 (KJV)
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor. 1:31 (KJV)
If faith is not from Christ, or works not from Christ, then they are both worthless filthy rags. But add Christ to faith, and Christ to works, and then they are but one and the same power of God to salvation and nothing remains, but Christ in us the hope of glory.
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Christ baptizes us by His Spirit not by His flesh.
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You need to prove that someone other than the apostles and the household of Cornelius received the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit before you can prove your case. You can’t do that, howerver.
What Cornelius and the apostles received is NOT "baptism by the Spirit". You need to prove other wise. The gift of the Holy Ghost was "power" to manifest Jesus as the Christ with miraculous signs.
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Christ did not circumcise when He walked the earth, we receive the circumcision of Christ by His Spirit and so is baptism.
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We receive the spiritual circumcism of Christ’s gospel when we put off the old man of sin. This is accomplished in baptism as Paul wrote to the Romans and I showed above.
:nono:
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Paul said we are baptized by the Spirit
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Show us the verse.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
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and having had that experience I understand the terminology.
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Show this legacy your proof. Give scripture for your thesis.
Read what I have written.
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This baptism is unseen thus no recorded account of this Spirtual operation.
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Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Roman 10:17). If it was to be known and obeyed it was revealed. Anything else is insignificant. Prove what you have said or withdraw your conclusion.
You can't obey it, it is an operation of God. Remember the "flesh profiteth nothing".
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Again, what occurred at Pentecost and the Cornelius account is not baptism by the Spirit.
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Then it is evident that you don’t understand Holy Spirit baptism (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:1-16)
It is evident you don't understand baptism by the Spirit and your references do not mention baptism.
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Yes and I believed and was baptized by His Spirit.
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You have no scriptural proof of this statement. THE Holy Spirit fell on all them (the household of Cornelius) that heard the word” But you try to make us believe that the Holy Spirit indwells before anyone is immersed. You need to review what Peter preached on Pentecost (Acts 2:38). You need to accept this verse: Eph 1:13 “...after that ye heard (unto obedience JAC) the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also AFTER that ye believed (encompassing hearing the word, believing the gospel, repenting of sins, confessing Christ publically, and being baptized for the remission of sins) ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise.” Sealing comes after hearing and believing, which is the process of obeying the gospel. There is no modern day baptism with the Holy Spirit. There is no indwelling prior to obedience.
I am going to tell you one more time...the gift of the Holy Ghost was power to perform miracles and it is not baptism by the Spirit. Your conclusion is based on your confusion.
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The words of Christ are 'living water' we drink by belief and are Spiritually cleansed by His Spirit. This washing of water by the word revealed to us by His Spirit is "baptism by the Spirit".
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You pick and choose what you want to “drink.” Paul delivered all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27) and the church drunk in all in. They did not pick and choose.
Paul did not preach a baptism of repentance for remission he said that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel.
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Your Roms 6 reference has nothing to do with water baptism and your 1Peter reference speaks of being born again by the 'word' not water. Matt 28: 18-20 is not a reference to a "baptism of repentance for remission".
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Only if you are an adherent of Scofield Bible footnote teaching.
I don't have a scofield bible.
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Obedience of the heart is believing the Spirit when the word is revealed.
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Where does the New Testament tell us that we believe the Spirit over the word? The Spirit inspired the writers and preachers to deliver the word. It is not the believers responsibility to believe the Spirit but the word.
I did not say we believe the Spirit over the word. You don't have the ability to understand much of what you read.
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Obedience of the flesh is water baptism.
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There is nothing in the New Testament that asserts this. It takes denominational ignorance to make this statement.
Try logic and there's nothing that says it isn't.
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It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
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What does Jesus say is spirit? It is His words. Therefore His words makes us alive not the Holy Spirit as you want us to believe. How does the Lord’s words make us alive? We will let Peter answer that: “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:22-23 AV. So, we are made alive or born again when we obey from the heart the word of God which Jesus delivered.
Jesus did not deliver a new "water" baptism for remission but gave us a new testament of His shed blood for remission (Matt 26:28). I am not a dispensationalist. I believe in progressive revelation.
