The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

hello Freak

I showed one of the brother from the church Kevin belief on baptism , and he was shocked to see how somebody can take scriptures out of context.
He pointed out to me that kevin has a big problem with timing, and dividing the word of God with good spiritual understand.
I told him how we debated for weeks on Mark 16:16, and I tryed to reveal the (And ), in Believe, and be baptized, and my friend pointed out that here is how Kevin takes things out of context even using the bible , and claiming he has biblical facts.
He said Kevin is correct in quoting this scripture that we should be baptized , but `don`t forget the timing of rightly dividing the word of God , and Kevin makes it seem like we must get baptized instantly after believing, but in MARK 16:16 doesn`t have any time in when we should obey in baptism, so we can believe and be saved now, and we can still be water baptized in a week or 6 month latter, or when ever the next appointment of a baptism, maybe in a year.
But my friend show me scriptures of being saved NOW by belief, not water baptized for instance
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2Co:6:1: We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co:6:2: (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Thank God freak it didn`t say now is the time of water baptism.

In our church Freak we first give every new member a 3 month believing course in teaching and coaching them their walk in Christ, and helping them with understanding the Word of God , and doing the will of God, and after the thírd month they will get baptized, and we have to wait so long for our baptism because we have so many wanting to get baptized after they are filled with the Spirit of God, and on fire for Christ, and they can`t help but they just want to be obedient in all the ways they can to show thier love back to Jesus the best they know how because of their first love to Jesus,not having anything to do with trying to earn or obey commandment to qualify for everlasting life.
We have about 15 to 25 people geting baptized every three month praise God, and some churches have up to 500 people getting baptized in one day, and that is works.
Believing in Faith that we are saved when we repent with heart is like have a house being built , and the frames ,roof is finished ,and the windows ,and inside is not finished , this building is still a house, and that the main thing , so is our salvation, but to have the house completly finished so we can live in it we need in a special time everything finished to just be comfortable for us, but the house is the house when the frames foundation was set up .

Keep us the good works, I think you can use this as a tip for Kevin religion of baptismal rituals.

Godf Bless you:thumb:

 

[Freak]

Kevin,

Calm down....Jesus in John 15:5 says that apart from Him we are unable to do anything. So, yes, in light of the Holy Scriptures, we are unable to accomplish anything good apart from the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ.

Jesus in Mark 16 said "whoever does not not believe (note: no mention of baptism) will be condemned."

Jesus was clear- not getting baptised is not what condemneds one. It the lack of belief that causes one to be condemned.

C. Moore-Thank God for you! You have been faithful to combat Kevin's lies in Jesus Name. One day, Kevin, will get saved by Jesus...

 

[Apollos]

But you were washed, you were justified, you were sanctified...

But you were washed, you were justified, you were sanctified...

Freak –

How ya doing? Your last post was – yet another barely noticeable “nip” at debate. Will you ever quit your “hit&run” mentality? Attempt to answer some of the points Kevin is slamming you with!

Jesus in John 15:5 says that apart from Him we are unable to do anything.

I think you missed your reference by a more than a few verses here, you ignored or missed the context, and made a flawed application. Do you then expect anyone to take your word on what Mark 16:16 means? Hardly!

Jesus in Mark 16 said "whoever does not not believe (note: no mention of baptism) will be condemned."

This is quite a mis-quote, but such twisting of scriptures is typical of those who don’t have a clue of what the truth really is about water baptism.

Please note that Jesus said – “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.”

Of course, if one does not believe, he would not be baptized, and therefore would be condemned.

Water baptism is the means selected by God through which man appropriates the salvation God offers man by His grace!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Lord said:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses,or brethren,or sisters,of fathers,or mother,or wife,or children,or lands,for My Name´s sake,shall receive an hundredfold,and SHALL INHERIT EVERLASTING LIFE"(Mt.19:29).

This verse is not describing the things that one MUST DO in order to inherit eternal life.The Lord is describing those (in this case) who will inherit eternal life.The same can be said for the words of the Lord Jesus at Mark 16:16:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;but he that believeth not shall be damned."

The Lord knew that those who BELIEVED would be baptized with water.He knows the heart of man and he knows that those who believe will be baptized.But by His words we can see that the actual rite of "water baptism" saves no one.

If the "water baptism" was essential to salvation,then the Lord would have said:

"...but he that believeth not shall be damned,and he that is not baptized will be damned."

But that is not what He says.Besides,Scripture makes it plain as to how the sinner INHERITS ETERNAL LIFE:

"He THAT OVERCOMETH shall inherit all things..."(Rev.21:7).

And Scripture states EXACTLY how one "overcomes":

"For who ever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even OUR FAITH"(1Jn.5:4).

OUR FAITH!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Kevin]

You're not doing yourself any favors...

You're not doing yourself any favors...

Freak,

Jesus in John 15:5 says that apart from Him we are unable to do anything. So, yes, in light of the Holy Scriptures, we are unable to accomplish anything good apart from the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ.

Who is "unable to accomplish anything good apart from the abiding relationship with Jesus Christ."? Who? Just as you said it: WE. We are still the ones who will do the good things because Christ is working within us, not Christ.

I've showed you above biblical proof above who Christ expects to keep His commandments. I also showed you why it wouldn't make sense that Christ would keep His own commandments for us. Did you even attpempt to address these points and questions? No.

Jesus in Mark 16 said "whoever does not not believe (note: no mention of baptism) will be condemned."

Not only do you run from my questions, you run from Mark 16:16! There are two parts of that verse. One of them deals with salvation, and one of them deals with damnation. Your false doctrine cannot stand up to what Jesus said about salvation. Instead, you run to the part of the verse that deals with condemnation, and try to use that as the requirements of salvation! What's the matter, Freak, are you afraid of the first part of that verse, you know... the part that ACTUALLY deals with salvation? If you are looking at the requirements of salvation, why not look at the part which speaks about SALVATION? That only makes sense! But to defend your doctrine you have to throw sense and logic out the window by ignoring what Christ said about salvation and run to the part that doesn't even deal with salvation. Your inability to deal with what Mark 16:16 says about salvation only amplifies the error of your doctrine.

And just as Apollos told you above: "Of course, if one does not believe, he would not be baptized, and therefore would be condemned."

I'm glad that I don't have a doctrine that forces me to ignore parts of a verse.

By the way, will you ever answer my little yes or no question?

 

[Kevin]

Apollos,

Amen! Thanks for the support! :up:

 

[c.moore]

hello freak
here some more help , and true information for you, written by somebody else, I just agree whole hearted with it praise God.

What makes a church or group non christian?

Nevertheless, what makes something non-Christian is when it denies the essential doctrines of the Bible.
· The Deity of Christ, which involves The Trinity
· the Resurrection, and
· Salvation by Grace

Cults add their own efforts, their own works of righteousness to the finished work of salvation accomplished by Jesus on the cross. All Cults say that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient, but our works must be 'mixed with' or 'added to' His in order to prove that we are saved and worthy of salvation. They say one thing but believe another. They maintain that they must prove themselves worthy and that they must try their best to please God and prove to Him that they are sincere, have worked hard, and are then worthy to be with Him. In other words, they do their best and God takes care of the rest.
This is absolutely wrong. The Bible says that we are saved by grace not by works "For by grace you have been saved through faith...not as a result of works, that no one should boast, (Eph. 2:8-9, NASB); not by anything we do "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28, NASB). Because if there was anything that we could do to merit the forgiveness of our sins, then Jesus died needlessly "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified...I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly (Gal. 2:16, 21, NASB).
People in cults will often cite James 2:26 where it says that faith without works is dead in an attempt to demonstrate that works are part of becoming saved. While it is true that faith without works is dead, it isn't the works that save us. James is saying that if you have real and true faith, it will result in real and true works of Christianity. In other words, you do good works because you are saved, not to get saved. He isn't saying that our works are what saves us, or that they, in combination with the finished work of Christ, save us. James is simply telling us that if we say we have faith (James 2:14) but we have no works in correspondence to that faith, then that faith won't save us because it is a dead faith. This agrees with Paul who tells us that faith is what saves us, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1). This faith is real faith, or true saving faith, not just an empty mental acknowledgement of God's existence which is what those who "say" they have faith but show no corresponding godliness are guilty of. Incidentally, you should realize that faith is only as good as who you put it in. Just having faith in something doesn't mean you're saved. That is why it is important to have the True Jesus, because if you have great faith but it is in the wrong Jesus, then your faith is useless.
Another common denominator among the Cults is their methods for twisting scripture. Some of the errors they commit in interpreting Scripture are: 1) taking Scripture out of context; 2) reading into the Scriptures information that is not there; 3) picking and choosing only the Scriptures that suit their needs; 4) ignoring other explanations; 5) combining scriptures that don't have anything to do with each other; 5) quoting a verse without giving its location; 6) incorrect definitions of key words; and 7) mistranslations. These are only a few of the many ways Cults misuse Scripture.
If you want to be able to witness well to a person in a cult, you need to understand their doctrines as well as your own. It would be a good idea to study both Christian Doctrine: the Bible, God, Creation, Man... and Christian Doctrine: Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Salvation... as well as the The Three Essential Doctrines of Christianity to become better equipped.

Another common denominator among the Cults is their methods for twisting scripture. Some of the errors they commit in interpreting Scripture are: 1) taking Scripture out of context; 2) reading into the Scriptures information that is not there; 3) picking and choosing only the Scriptures that suit their needs; 4) ignoring other explanations; 5) combining scriptures that don't have anything to do with each other; 5) quoting a verse without giving its location; 6) incorrect definitions of key words; and 7) mistranslations. These are only a few of the many ways Cults misuse Scripture.

God bless you freak and your wife

 

[Freak]

Thanks C. Moore. Keep fighting the spiritual battle. We are off to Trinidad here in a few weeks to hold evangelism/deliverance/healing meetings. We look forward defending the faith and preaching the Gospel.

Kevin, the Gospel is simply received by faith (see 1Cor. 15:1-11, see verse 11). The Apostle Paul made this clear-the Gospel consists the death of Jesus, His burial, and His bodily resurrection. This Gospel can be received simply through belief/faith in Jesus Christ, Paul makes that clear in verse 11.

 

[Kevin]

Kevin,

Kevin, the Gospel is simply received by faith (see 1Cor. 15:1-11, see verse 11). The Apostle Paul made this clear-the Gospel consists the death of Jesus, His burial, and His bodily resurrection. This Gospel can be received simply through belief/faith in Jesus Christ, Paul makes that clear in verse 11.

Rather than trying to change the subject, why not just save everybody some time by saying that you can't or won't answer my question. I don't know how you expect people to take you seriously when you can't even answer simple yes or no questions. When it get's right down to it... you don't have answers to back up your doctrine.

 

[Freak]

Kevin, I answered you!

The answer is no, the Holy Scriptures do not teach you must be water baptized to be saved.

 

[Apollos]

You were washed - justifed - sanctified...

You were washed - justifed - sanctified...

Jerry –

In Matthew 19:29 Jesus does describe those who will inherent eternal life. It will be those THAT DO THESE THINGS. It will be those that DO SOMETHING!!

And yes the same can be said for Mark 16:16 – He that BELIEVES and is BAPTIZED shall be saved !!!

For all your rhetoric, and how you want to reconstruct what the Lord said, the meaning is not changed. You must believe and you must be baptized.

If you don’t believe you won’t be baptized and you will be condemned! The Lord knew that those who believed must be baptized to be saved, because water is the means selected by God through which man appropriates salvation from God.

"He THAT OVERCOMETH shall inherit all things..."(Rev.21:7). This includes overcoming disbelief in water baptism – what it is for and what it does!!
<<<>>>

"For who ever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even OUR FAITH"(1Jn.5:4).

Being born of God involves TWO items (John 3): water (baptism) and Spirit (His instructions). Once “faith” develops to the point of accepting His directions and complying with obedience, we have our victory over the world!!

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Kevin, I answered you! The answer is no, the Holy Scriptures do not teach you must be water baptized to be saved.

How is that an answer to my question of: According to 1John 2:4, will a person who does not keep Christ's commandments (a liar) be saved? Yes or no? Simple question.

You have not answered this simple yes or no question. Either answer it or hang up the hat. It's quite obvious that you've been ducking this question. Well?!

 

[Freak]

Kevin,

Apart me you can do nothing-the words of Jesus in John 15:5.

You cannot do anything good apart from Jesus Christ including the keeping of any commandment. Jesus Christ, who is eternal God, however is able. When you know Christ and you are made complete (Eph. 2). So "in Christ" I am righteous. This is not difficult, Kevin.

Instead of believing in water believe in eternal God-the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kevin]

Keep on dancing around the issues....

Keep on dancing around the issues....

Freak,

You cannot do anything good apart from Jesus Christ including the keeping of any commandment. Jesus Christ, who is eternal God, however is able. When you know Christ and you are made complete (Eph. 2). So "in Christ" I am righteous. This is not difficult, Kevin.

Funny how you refuse to answer my proof texts to show that we are the ones who keep the commandments, not Christ. How typical of you. All talk, no rock. It's obvious that you have practice a false doctrine, because you don't seem to have answers for much anything.

How many posts has it been since I've origianlly asked you my simple yes or no question... and you still haven't answered me? Funny how I was able to answer your question on the very next post after you asked it. It's quite obvious who has the truth and who doesn't. A person with the truth doesn't have to dodge questions the way you do, because the truth has answers. False doctrines cannot answer the truth, which you are clearly demonstrating by your refusal to answer a simple question. Do you even realize how pathetic you make yourself look by continually dodging points and questions, or do you not care? Pathetic.

 

[Freak]

Kevin,

Stop your blah blah blah.

Now deal with the truth. Jesus is all we need for salvation. No need for water. Jesus is eternal God. You look very silly. But God loves you!

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Now deal with the truth.

It's you who needs to deal with the truth. In **12** posts you haven't been able to deal with the truth. Your silence speaks for you.

 

[Freak]

Silence. I haven't been silent. You just don't like the Scriptural truth regarding this matter. Jesus is all I need to be saved. Anything else tells me Jesus is just not enough. The Jesus of the Bible is God and He is able...

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Silence. I haven't been silent.

You have replied to my question, yes, but you have not answered it. I asked you a simple yes or no question, and I have yet to hear an answer on that. You are hanging on to the ridiculous idea that Christ actually does His own commandments for us. I have shown scriptual evidence as to why this can't be true. Your response? Nothing.

Think about it... if Christ kept His own commandments for us we would be perfect. Nobody is perfect!

You just don't like the Scriptural truth regarding this matter

No, what I don't like is your twist that you put on the scriptures.

Jesus is all I need to be saved. Anything else tells me Jesus is just not enough.

But what you are missing is that while Jesus is the way to salvation, not everybody will be saved. Why is that? Because there are things that man must do on his part for salvation. No, this isn't "earning" salvation, this is being obedient to the Lord, for the Lord will NOT save the disobedient, unless they repent. When somebody truly repents, that means they turn their life over to Jesus, thus becoming obedient to Him. You cannot turn your life over to Jesus without obeying His commandments... for person who claims to know Christ "and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1John 2:4). Take a wild guess where liars will be, Freak! HELL.

 

[Freak]

Kevin is getting closer.

First you said: if Christ kept His own commandments for us we would be perfect.

WE are "in Christ" (Eph. 2) we are complete in Him (Eph. 2). Did you know this?

You finally confessed: while Jesus is the way to salvation,...

Let's leave at that, Kevin, Jesus is the way! He is our salvation. We do not need anything more. He is God, right?

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

First you said: if Christ kept His own commandments for us we would be perfect.

WE are "in Christ" (Eph. 2) we are complete in Him (Eph. 2). Did you know this?

First of all, we are int "in Christ" unless we are BAPTIZED into His death. Baptism is how we become "in Christ" (Romans 6:3, Gal. 3:27).

Secondly, nowhere in Ephesians 2 does it mention anything about us being perfect. Are you trying to tell me that you are perfect? You NEVER sin?

You finally confessed: while Jesus is the way to salvation,...

I confessed that earlier by agreeing with verse that you pointed out way back about Jesus being the door. My views haven't changed a bit.

Let's leave at that, Kevin, Jesus is the way!

I've never denied that Jesus is the way to salvation. Where we disagree is how one enters the door to salvation (Jesus). You say that it's by belief only. I say that it's by belief that is alive with obedience to His commandments. Scripture is plain about those who do not keep His commandments. They are liars, and liars won't make it to heaven. Faith without works is dead. Not everybody who calls Him Lord will enter hevean. The people in Matt. 25: 41-46 believed in Christ, for they address Him as "Lord". Was their belief alone enough to save them? No.