The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Francisco]

HCF2,

The existence of the Trinity was revealed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Abraham could not have known about the Trinity since he died thousands of years before 'the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.'

John the Baptist could not have known either, since he died at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. And just before he was beheaded by Herod Agrippa, he sent messengers to Jesus to inquire if He was 'the one to come.' If John had known of the Trinity and that Jesus was God, he wouldn't have sent the messengers to Jesus.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

hello Kevin

I think the problem we have is the information , and teachings we been raised up int believing, and it is hard to recieve anther teaching regardless if right or wrong, because we don`t take the time to investagate the other side and learn how they began to get this teaching.
For instance no matter how anybody explain that I should be rich and prosperious , I believed and could prove by my teachings that they are wrong, and I believed this at one time untill I came to Germany and found out the truth of my covernant, and I found out I am a son and not a poor servant, and I found the truth that I am a child and have the rights to be prosperious like Abraham, because I have a covernant with him sence I am adopted into the family praise God.
What I am saying is no matter how much proof we pour into you ,or show all the scripture saying water baptism is a symbol,and the spiritual baptism is the key, and belief, you will still stay with your brain washed teachings, and only God at the right time can open your heart to recieve a greater level of faith .
I sometime ask God why didn`t God reveal to me that I am a son and everything belong to me before, but it had something to do with my growth ,and God`s timing, and If we try to go before God timing thing won`t turn out correct, so maybe all this debates, and argument against your idea`s of baptism is not the time right now for you to know, like it is not the time for my son which is 12 years old to drive our car, get the point.
So it is sometimes a waste of time and writting to try to convince a person they are wrong, because thier heart is still blinded, and closed to recieved for many pride, and other reasons.
I can only pray that God will give you many revelations of the gospel like he did me , and your eyes will be open like paul eyes.
Even we know Paul was a professional debater , and theologian, but he didn`t win people to Christ by argueing , but by showing his faith, and powers in Christ, and he had that Godly authority over demons, and devil,which we should normally use to win lost souls with the preaching , and not the argueing of the Word of God.
I know you deal with so many people who believe as I do, because this is so taught in many denominational churches , also missionary`s teach this, and Evangelist, and tv broadcast all over the world teach what I believe, so it`s a matter of accepting it or not, at least you never can stand before God and lie and say nobody never told you the truth about the gospel of faith, and belief, and the spiritual things that count for God .
Try to get more involve with the spiritual things in stead of the external and out ward things that will perish, and work with the powers God gave you or the powers of God you can recieve freely praise God


God bless you Kevin

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kevin,

You make a huge mistake that only demonstrates that you have only a small degree of understanding of the Scriptures,especially when it comes to the meaning of the various BAPTISMS.

You say that John´s baptism could not possibly wash away sins,and therefore that is why those at Acts 19 had to be re-baptized.

But please consider the plain words of Scripture that demonstrate that you speak in error:

"John did baptize in the wilderness,and preach the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"(Mk.1:4).

Now I guess that you will invent another reason why you believe that it was necessary for them to be re-baptized.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

c.moore,

I'm certainly not answering for Kevin as he does a tremendous job of that himself. But I do want to comment on your last post.

Originally posted by c.moore
I think the problem we have is the information , and teachings we been raised up int believing, and it is hard to recieve anther teaching regardless if right or wrong, because we don`t take the time to investagate the other side and learn how they began to get this teaching.

I agree with your thought that changing one's own belief is very difficult, no matter what evidence is presented. In regard to 'investigating the other side', I'm curious as to what you've investigated about our side, mine and Kevin's that is. You see, Kevin and I hold to apostolic beliefs that have been around since the beginning of Christianity, handed down by the apostles. If you investigate our side, you will see the early church fathers believed water baptism was NOT symbolic and IS necessary for salvation.

I have investigated your side. Most of the beliefs you you disagree with me and Kevin on did not exist until approximately 400 years ago, around the beginning of the reformation period. Those beliefs that disagreed with the belief of the Church that did exist were considered heresy, and were battled by the great theologians of early Christianity. And when the 'new' beliefs sprang up during the reformation period, the reformers fought amongst themselves in regard to these beliefs. Why? Because interpretting scripture without the basis of the tradition from which the New Testament came allows different interpretations by different individuals. The disagreements between different private interpretations has led to the thousands of different Protestant denominations, most of which have gradually moved away from the teachings of their original founders.

With me and Kevin, we will stand firm on the teachings of the earliest Christians, the founders of the Catholic Church, so to speak. Here is what they had to say about water baptism:

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, a conscious or even unconscious desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.

Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).

Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).

Origen
"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"[T]he baptism of public witness [desire] and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).

"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.

. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

Gregory Nazianz
"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).

Pope Siricius
"It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life" (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).

John Chrysostom
"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).

Ambrose of Milan
"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).

"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).

"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).

"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).

Pope Leo I
"And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]" (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).

Fulgentius of Ruspe
"From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Originally posted by c.moore
What I am saying is no matter how much proof we pour into you ,or show all the scripture saying water baptism is a symbol,and the spiritual baptism is the key, and belief, you will still stay with your brain washed teachings, and only God at the right time can open your heart to recieve a greater level of faith .

This is exactly how I feel about you and your beliefs c.moore. No matter how much evidence we show you, you still hold to the brain washed teachings of your heretical teachers. You have no convincing evidence, basing all your evidence on the same private interpretations that Protestants themselves can not agree on. If Protestants don't agree amongst themselves, how are you going to convince me or Kevin that our beliefs, rooted in the most ancient teachings of the earliest Christians, are inferior to your evolving beliefs?

Originally posted by c.moore
I know you deal with so many people who believe as I do, because this is so taught in many denominational churches , also missionary`s teach this, and Evangelist, and tv broadcast all over the world teach what I believe,

So? If you think the majority of Christians believe as you do, you are sadly mistaken. There are currently over 1 billion Catholics in the world who disagree with you. There are an additional 400 million Orthodox and Eastern Catholics that also disagree with you. In addition, the majority of Protestants disagree with you.

Originally posted by c.moore
so it`s a matter of accepting it or not, at least you never can stand before God and lie and say nobody never told you the truth about the gospel of faith, and belief, and the spiritual things that count for God .

You can accept the truth or continue to ignore it c.moore, and you can't say nobod ever told you the truth about the gospel. You should open your eyes, realize there must be something wrong with your doctrines that none of you can fully agree on, and seek the truth rather than continuously relying on the brain washed teachings of your denomination that have no apostolic basis.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

It seems that you are as unaware of the plain Scriptual facts as Kevin is.You say that John´s baptism was only symbolic and had no affect on sins whatsoever.But please read the words of Mark to see if it was merely symbolic:

"John did baptize in the wilderness,and preach the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"(Mk.1:4).

And no,I did not leave out verse 5.That is merely a figment of your imagination.If you will go back to my previous posts on this subject,you will see that I never left out this verse.

I said that this verse were the words of Paul,as were the words at verse 4.Please go back and read what I said before you make false charges against me.

And tell me,Francisco,do you still believe that John´s baptism was merely symbolic?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

Could John the Baptist forgive sins? No.

I can see how you would think the baptism of John remitted sins if you take this verse (Mk1:4) by itself, but just a few verses later John also said that he baptized with water, but that there would be another who would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Mk1:7). John said this to show that he did not baptize with the Holy Spirit, without which there is no forgiveness of sin.

Also, remember that John's mission was to prepare the way of the Lord by teaching the people about salvation by the forgiveness of sins (Lk 1:77), NOT to baptize for the forgiveness of sins.

Now let's look again at Mark 1:4. The verse does NOT say John baptized for the remission of sin; you are reading that into the text. Rather, it says John baptized, AND PREACHED the baptism of penance for the remission of sin. The emphasis is on penance: 'baptism OF penance' for the remission of sin. In other words, John was teaching the people that by immersing (baptizing) themselves in penance, their sins would be forgiven. John's baptism was not the baptism for the remission of sin, but was an outward sign of detestation of their former sins, a symbol of the repentance John was preaching. And John preached the baptism of penance for the remission of sins to fulfill his mission of preparing the way for Jesus, by who's death and resurrection are sins forgiven.

In regard to 'false accusation', I did not falsely accuse you of anything. I merely pointed out that you cited verses 4 and 6 but left verse 5 out. I was not referring to your previous posts, but only to the post to which I was replying, the post in which you cite verses 4 & 6, but chose to leave out verse 5. And, I was not accusing you of any wrong doing by leaving out verse 5.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Malachi IV:VI]

the Gospel dosen't just hinge on any one principle

the Gospel dosen't just hinge on any one principle

My understanding of the situation is that you're all getting stuck on one aspect or principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

True that narrow is the way that leads to eternal life (and few there be that find it) but that dosent mean that eternal life can be acheived by "successfuly completing" one specific aspect or principle (ie tithing, faith, baptism, prayer, repentance) True that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, but as it states in John 21:25

"...I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written"

and since we are to acheive even "...unto the measure of the stature of the fullness Christ:"-Ephesians 4:13

We need to try to be like him. So we can not acheive eternal life on just one, or even several principles. All of the principles, all of the light and truth it's all interconected. You can't have charity without faith or hope. Neither can repentance have any force or efficacy if their are no ordinances. You can't recieve a fulness of grace without being willing to accept and love God and the only way to do this Christ plainly stated--

"If ye love me keep my commandments"John 14:15

To know his comandments we must receive guidance from his Holy Spirit and have a testimony of him which according to Revelations is "...the spirit of prophecy" Revelations 19:10

It's all interconected. Truth is eternal. God is eternal. As long as we go along "...making a man an offender for a word..."(Isaiah 29:21) we will not change anything. The only way to change things is to draw closser each day to the Savior through humbly and prayerfully learning of him through the scriptures and striving to be like him daily untill the end of our mortal lives. Otherwise how will we know the master we haven't served?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

The Scriptures state that the Baptist was sent to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in HOLINESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS"(Lk.1:17,74,75).

And since Israel had become defiled,it was necessary for the Baptist to remit their sins before they could serve the Lord in holiness and righteousness.

And the father of the Baptist,while he was filled with the Holy Spirit,said this in regard to his son,John the Baptist:

"And thou,child,shalt be called the prophet of the Highest;for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways;to give knowledge of salvation unto His people BY THE REMISSION OF THEIR SINS,through the tender mercy of our God"(Lk.1:76,77).

And not only does the father of the Baptist say that he would "give knowledge of salvation unto His people BY THE REMISSION OF SINS",we also see the Baptist doing just that:

"And he came into all the country about the Jordan,preaching the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"(Lk.3:3).

But you say that there is no forgiveness of sins without the Holy Spirit.But that is not true.Where did you get such an idea?

We see that on the day of atonement the sins of the children of Israel were forgiven them when their sins were laid upon the scape goat to be taken out of the way (Lev.16:21).

And at that time the Holy Spirit had not been given.We also see that the priests of the Old Covenant wereable to make atonement for the sins of the people,but yet the Holy Spirit had not been given.

And why couldn´t the Baptist remit sins,especially considering the fact that he was appointed to prepare a people for the Lord?After all,he was "filled with the Holy Spirit,even from his mother´s womb"(Lk.1:15).

No,Francisco,we see that he was preaching the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and that can only mean that once a person repented and confessed their sins they were baptized with water and their sins were forgiven.

In that way were the people made ready so that they couldserve Him in holiness and righteousness.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Malachi,

I appreciate your comments,especially when you say that eternal life cannot be ACHIEVED by successfully completing one specific aspect or principle.

In fact,eternal life is not a prize that can be won by ACHIEVING ANYTHING AT ALL!

And that is because eternal life is a GIFT:

"...the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"(Ro.6:23).

It comes only to those who believe the gospel of salvation.And once the sinner believes the gospel,they receive the GIFT of eternal life:

"And this is the record,thaty God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

Notice the words--"HATH GIVEN TO US"--it is already done.All who believe are given a life in Christ that will never end.That is the meaning of "eternal".

And the Lord Jesus Christ Himself says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish:

"And I give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

So "eternal life" is not something that is ACHEIVED,but instead it is a gift that comes "unto all and upon all them that believe".

As the Baptist said,"A man can receive nothing,except it be GIVEN him from heaven"(Jn.3:27).

And the Lord Jesus Christ said:

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall GIVE him shall never thrist,but the water that I shall GIVE him shall be in him a well of water spring up into everlasting life"(Jn.4:14).

And that is why the Lord called the "living water" the "GIFT OF GOD"(Jn.4:10).

So "salvation" is not an achievement,but a gift.And this gift comes upon the sinner the moment he believes.The Christian should know that he already possesses eternal life,and this life is a life without end.

"These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God,that ye may KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE"(1Jn.5:13).

And when we know that we possess eternal life,we can remember the words of the Lord that whosoever he gives eternal life "shall never perish".

Those who have been born of God can,like John,say:

"And we know that the Son of God is come,and hath given us an understanding,that we may know Him that is true;and we are in Him that is true,even in His Son,Jesus Christ.This is the true God,AND ETERNAL LIFE"(1Jn.5:20).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Malachi and Jerry,

It's great to be in agreement! No one can ACHEIVE eternal life. In fact, all good things are gifts from God!

AMEN!!!

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[HardCoreFundy2]

What saddens me on these boards is the interpretation of Gods gift.

What is a gift? Strongs 1435 doron {do'-ron} a present; TDNT - 2:166,166; n n AV - gift 18, offering 1; 19

1) a gift, present 1a) gifts offered in expression of honour 1a1) of sacrifices and other gifts offered to God 1a2) of money cast into the treasury for the purposes of the temple and for the support of the poor 2) the offering of a gift or of gifts

For Synonyms see entry 5839


The dictionary

gift Pronunciation Key (gft) n.
Something that is bestowed voluntarily and without compensation. The act, right, or power of giving. A talent, endowment, aptitude, or inclination.

Now Lets look at this:

Is there Biblical evidence that Gods can be paid for?

Romans 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

Paul is clearly spelling out here that a gift is not something you pay for. If someone gives you a gift out of the goodness of their heart, and then you decide to pay for it, its not a gift anymore but an obligation.

Imagine of your birthday a loved one bring you a gift and you unwrap it then go to you wallet pull out some money and hand it to them to pay for the gift. Is it a gift anymore? No


Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

If Abraham had been justified by works he had something to boast about - BUT NOT BEFORE GOD!!

Think about that.

THis is the way:

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Is this clarified elsewhere?

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Here it clearly states we are justified by what we believe in out heart ALONE and this belief is creditied as righteousness and we are justified on that basis alone.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Why not our works of righteousness?

Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

How can we mix our filthy rags with the perfect work of Calvary?


Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What works must we do for God?

They asked Jesus the same question 2000 years ago

John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Why did they ask? Because these people wanted to know what was the exact thing they needed to do to get right with God.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Hardcorefundie2 asks Jesus right now:

What works must I do Lord to please God and be justified?

Jesus answer's, "The work of God Hardcorefundie2 believe in the one he has sent."





."

 

[UzandBuz]

HardCoreFundy2

HardCoreFundy2

So what do you think of these verses?

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. James 2: 17-26

 

[HardCoreFundy2]

Re: HardCoreFundy2

Re: HardCoreFundy2

Originally posted by UzandBuz
So what do you think of these verses?

People will often cite James 2 where it says that faith without works is dead. This, of course, is correct; faith without works is dead. If you have real faith it will result in real works of Christianity. That is what James is talking about. But he isn't saying that our works are what saves us, or that they, in combination with the finished work of Christ, save us.

James was telling us that if we say we have faith (James 2:14) but you have no works, then that faith won't save us; and faith is what saves us, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).

It is faith that saves. Incidentally, it should be noted that it is not faith only but faith in the proper object. Just having faith in something doesn't mean you're saved. Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. That is why it is important to have the True Jesus. Because if you have great faith but it is in the wrong Jesus, then your faith is useless.

James 2 are passage’s frequently questioned by the lost after they hear the gospel of salvation through faith without works.

Actually, to receive proper understanding of this passage is not difficult when one keeps in mind some simple principles valuable in discerning any Scripture:

1. To whom is the author writing . . . lost or saved people?
2. What situation prompted the writing of this passage?
3. A careful study of the passage, verse by verse, not adding to or taking away from the Word of God.
4. Comparison of this passage with other passages in the Bible on the same particular issue.

Looking at James 2:14-24 from the above standpoints we find:

1. It is written to the saved, to believers. In verse 14 James says "my brethren."
2. This entire epistle is written to Christians for their
instruction on conduct and Christian service.
3. Below is a verse-by-verse consideration of the passage. James 2:14, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" James asks if there is any profit, any value, any fruit, if a man claims to have faith in Christ and yet doesn't live and serve as a Christian should.

Christians are told in Ephesians 2:10, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them." It is true that those who are saved are saved by faith and not by what they do; but, AFTER they are saved, God wants them to do good works.

Titus 3: 8 points this out so clearly: "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men."

In order to help people and have a ministry with them a Christian must be careful to live a good testimony. Titus 3: 14 tells us, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not UNFRUITFUL." If you want to bear fruit for the Lord you must do good works . . . not to be saved . . . but to be fruitful.

So to answer James's first question-There is no profit, no fruit, if a man says he has faith but doesn't produce any works. He is saved, but he is an unfruitful Christian. John 15: 2 warns those who are saved-in Christ-but do not bear fruit, "Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away...." God removes the Christian who is a stumbling block to others.

The next question in James 2:14 is "Can faith save him?" Romans 4:5 answers this clearly: "But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Yes, faith can save him. In fact, nothing else could. When a person tries to be saved by faith and works, he cannot be saved (Romans 11:6; Gal. 5:2; Gal. 5:4).

James 2:15, 16, "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" The answer is that it doesn't profit that hungry person at all. You have not helped a person's material needs-you have not provided him with food or clothes-just by telling him to leave in peace.

James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." Yes, it is true, that if you have faith in Christ, but do not work and serve the Lord, your faith will not bear FRUIT. The word "dead" in this verse is "nekros" (Greek) and means "useless." (See Greek-English Lexicon, by Arndt and Gingrich, Univ. of Chicago Press, page 536.)

If you have faith in the Lord, but you don't do anything for others, your faith will not be of any value to them. It will be useless to them. You are not demonstrating your faith in Christ to others by just telling them to "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled," if you are not willing to do something to help them. In fact, you will be a discredit to Christianity and do much harm to the gospel.

James 2:18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." A Christian could say, "You have faith and I have good works. You tell me you have so much faith without showing me any good works, but I will tell you I have faith, and you can SEE that I have faith because my works SHOW that I believe."

James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Even the devils cannot deny there is a God. But believing in God isn't enough to save. You must believe what God, the Lord Jesus Christ, has done for you and accept His payment for your sin to be saved.

James 2:20, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" As in v. 17, faith without works is of no use to other people. A saved person who doesn't serve the Lord lives a vain, useless Christian life. He will be chastised in this life and have no reward in the thousand year reign of Christ (Hebrews 12:6; I Cor. 3:15). He will not have love, joy, or peace in his life, as these things are not the results of living for yourself, but the results of living for the Lord, disciplining your life under the direction of, and by the power of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22).

James 2: 21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" The answer to James's question here is "YES!" Yes, Abraham was justified by works WHEN he offered up Isaac. But the question is, justified BEFORE WHOM? Before men, or before God? AT THAT TIME when men saw the great faith Abraham had, that he even offered his son to God at His request, Abraham was justified in the sight of MEN. They knew, by his works, that here was a man who truly had great faith in God. His faith was DEMONSTRATED in the sight of man by his works.

But WHEN was Abraham justified in the sight of GOD? The Lord justified Abraham by his faith MANY YEARS before he offered up Isaac. In fact, Abraham was justified before Isaac was even born! "And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen. 15:6).

Galatians 3:6-11 is very clear on this. "Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through FAITH, preached before the GOSPEL unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that NO man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by FAITH."

James 2: 22, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" How true and clear this verse really is. PEOPLE see, YOU see, that Abraham-through faith-through absolute trust and confidence in God-offered up his son . . . and this act (work) proved to people that he certainly had GREAT FAITH.

James 2:23, "And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." The Scripture that was fulfilled is Genesis 15:6, "And he BELIEVED in the Lord, and He (God) counted it (Abraham's faith) to him for righteousness." Yes, Abraham's BELIEF was imputed to him for righteousness. God puts His righteousness to the account of the believer because He has already paid the penalty of the believer's sins.
James 2:24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." PEOPLE, then, see by a person's works that he has faith. PEOPLE do not have the ability that God has to see a person's faith-to know a person's mind.

I Samuel 16:7 makes this very clear, "But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as MAN seeth: for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

To briefly summarize James 2: 14-24-This passage teaches us that if people are to REALIZE that a person has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, they must be able to see the person's good works. Man looks at your LIFE and judges (rightly or wrongly) whether or not you have faith. Therefore, believers should take utmost care, as Titus 3:8 points out, to maintain a good testimony. This has nothing to do with the person's salvation, but it does have a lot to do with how much influence his life is going to have upon others for the Lord Jesus Christ.

4. Compare James 2: 14-24 with verses in Romans, chapter four. This chapter is speaking of the SAME person, Abraham, and the SAME issue, his justification. Was he justified by his faith or by his works?

Romans 4:1, 2, "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

We just read, in James 2:21, that Abraham WAS justified by his works! Yes, indeed . . . WHEN he offered Isaac, his son, upon the altar, PEOPLE realized he had faith, and he was considered a great man in the sight of the people. His works justified him in the eyes of the people at that time. He could "glory" in the public acclaim of his great faith. But IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, he received justification many years before . . . as was pointed out . . . even before Isaac was born!

Although God wants us to live the right kind of lives, doing good works, serving Him, He doesn't need our good works to SHOW Him we have faith. He is a "mind reader." He knows how we really feel deep inside. Man doesn't have this ability to know perfectly the thoughts of others.

God says in Ezekiel 11:5, ". . . I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them." And in I Samuel 16:7, ". . . for the Lord seeth NOT AS MAN SEETH; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

The question raised in Romans 4:3 is: What does the BIBLE say about Abraham's justification? "For what saith the Scripture? Abraham BELIEVED God, and it (his belief) was counted unto him for righteousness." This is referring back to Genesis 15:6, as we quoted before.

Romans 4:4, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Salvation is by grace. If you work for something, your pay isn't by grace; it is owed to you. A laborer gets his pay at the end of the week because he EARNED it by his work, not because of the GRACE of the employer.

But our salvation is by the GRACE of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not as the outcome of our works. And it is a good thing salvation is by grace and not of works because nobody could be perfect enough for heaven by works, anyway. If a person thinks he could get to heaven by his good works, a good question to ask him is, "How many good works do you think you have to do to go to heaven?" or "How good do you think you would have to be to go to heaven?" God says if we sin in just one thing (James 2:10) we are still imperfect, even as if we had sinned a lot.

God doesn't save anyone who is trusting Christ AND ALSO trusting his GOOD WORKS to save him. Because salvation is by grace, it cannot be of works at all. Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (It's like saying: "If you have ice, then you do not have steam, because if you had steam you would no longer have ice. But if you have steam, then you do not have ice, otherwise steam is no longer steam.")

In salvation, grace and works are "mutually exclusive." Satan is always trying to reverse things in people's minds. He tries to get them to think they have to work to be saved, and then tries to keep them from working after they are saved. I PRAY that you wouldn't let Satan ever confuse your message of God's saving grace!

Romans 4:5 is one of the clearest verses proving salvation is by faith, without works. Let's examine this verse phrase by phrase.

"But to him that worketh not" . . . To him who doesn't do ANY work at all.
"But believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly" . . . But believes on Jesus who gives His righteousness to sinners.

"His faith is counted for righteousness" . . . God sees his faith, and because of his faith gives him righteousness.

Romans 3:28 gives God's judgment and wisdom on the matter in finality, "Therefore we CONCLUDE that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law."

Then, referring back to the thirty-second Psalm, Romans 4:6-8 tells us, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth RIGHTEOUSNESS WITHOUT WORKS, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Blessed is the man of whom God says, "I will not charge your sins to you. I have paid for them Myself." God says this, however, only to the man who trusts Christ alone for his salvation. God never says this to the man who tries to get to heaven by his own works, in full or in part.

In trying to lead a person to the Lord, answer his questions as briefly and simply as you can. Agree with him- Abraham WAS justified by his works-- but NOT BEFORE GOD. Go into detail only as you have to.

If you do not, for some reason, seem to understand the true meaning of James, chapter two, even after you have had explained it to you Romans, chapter four, I recommend that you go to Ephesians 2:8, 9, Titus 3:5 and stay there a while. If by this time if you don’t see the light, perhaps the problem doesn't come from a particular passage like in James, but rather from a complete lack of comprehension of the plan of salvation itself.

Note: I get this asked so often I have kept the answer in MS-Word

:thumb:

 

[servantofChrist]

Right on Francisco!

To: Jerry Shugart,

Francisco observed and statedexactly what I told you before - that after the text says the Ephesian disciples had been baptized only in John's baptism, but before Paul laid his hands on them and the Holy Spirit came upon them - the narrative says in between these that they "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Your handling of Acts 19:1-4 is actually a "mishandling" of those verses.

As for Acts 2:38, it always amazes me how people can mutilate such a PLAIN, SIMPLE STATEMENT of truth by dissecting it and saying, "Well, repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sins, but baptism is not!"

Both verbs - "Repent" and "be baptized" were given in the AORIST IMPERATIVE MOOD. The only difference being that "Repent" is in the active voice and "be baptized" is in the passive voice.

Since BOTH were given by the LORD Almighty in the IMPERATIVE mood, that means they were EQUALLY INSPIRED, EQUALLY AUTHORITATIVE and EQUALLY BINDING upon those condemned souls in Acts 2.

Secondly, has anyone ever looked closely at v. 41 in Acts 2?

It says, "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

Do you get the implication of what that is saying? It says those who "accepted his message were baptized." This implies that there were some there who did NOT accept his message, and these same ones were NOT baptized.

Therefore, if you are not baptized, then you do not accept the gospel message! And since the gospel is what saves us (Rom. 1:16), there is therefore no hope for those who do not!

That is what Acts 2:38, 41 teach!

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

The Scriptures state that the Baptist was sent to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in HOLINESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS"(Lk.1:17,74,75).

And since Israel had become defiled,it was necessary for the Baptist to remit their sins before they could serve the Lord in holiness and righteousness.

Wow! If only Jesus had known John the Baptist could go around forgiving everyone's sins, then He could have stayed in heaven and He wouldn't have had to go through all that messy business with the cross.....

Surely you don't really believe John the Baptist was FORGIVING sins? He was sent to tell the people to repent Jerry, so that Jesus could forgive them. That is what was meant by 'prepare the way for the Lord.'

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[c.moore]

You said Francisco
So? If you think the majority of Christians believe as you do, you are sadly mistaken. There are currently over 1 billion Catholics in the world who disagree with you. There are an additional 400 million Orthodox and Eastern Catholics that also disagree with you. In addition, the majority of Protestants disagree with you.


That is problemly true that they will disagree because,
1Co:2:10: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

many religious people and religious leader are brain washed through thier doctrine because they believe the natural, and traditional religious works than the spiritual, and that`s why they can`t accept our spiritual understanding, like worshiping stone statues, and worshiping Mary , and using baal things like holy black beans to pray ,and thinking through traditions that a priest, or father can forgive people of there sins.
What a shame , that people rather believe religious ritual works , rather than the in ward works of God.
Catholic and many religious group rely more on tradition of me and man made theology than the Holy Spirit.
I hope one day they wake up and trust Jesus and His Spirit
1Jo:2:20: But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo:2:21: I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.


Peace

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

Surely you do not believe that the priests under the Mosaic Covenant could lay the sins of the children of Israel upon the scapegoat,do you?

After all,if the priests could do away with sins in this manner then therewould be no reason for the Lord to die on the Cross.

But Scripture does indeed demonstrate that the priests could do this very thing:

"And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat,and confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel,and all their transgressions IN ALL THEIR SINS,putting them on the head of the goat,and shall send it away by a fit man into the wilderness"(Lev.16:21).

This completely destroys you little theory that no one could have their sins forgiven or taken away except through the Spirit.

But as usual,I am sure that these words from the Holy Scripture will have no place in your theology,because we see over and over that when Scripture is in conflict with the teaching of the church at Rome you just IGNORE it.

You just do not understand that before anyone can serve the Lord in HOLINESS first they must have their sins taken away.The Baptist was sent to prepare a people so that they could serve Him in HOLINESS.But before they could possibly serve Him in HOLINESS they must FIRST have their sins removed.And that is why the Baptist came "preaching the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"(Lk.3:3).

You would have us believe that the "remission of sins" had nothing to do with the baptism that the Baptist preached,even though Scripture states in no uncertain terms that the baptism that he performed was called "the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"(Mk.1:4).

You expect us to abandon our common sense (just as you have) and to believe you that the "baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS" had nothing to do with the "remission of sins".

We who have recived the Sppirit of God will not be fooled by such nonsense.But those who have not received the Spirit might believe your foolish teaching.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God;for they are foolishness unto him,neither can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor.2:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

servantofChrist,

It is you who abandons your common sense and MIS-HANDLES these verses at Acts19.

Paul´s words at Acts 19 do not end at verse 4.They continuse on through verse 5.This is what Paul says to these believers:

"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance,saying unto the people that they should believe on Him Who should come after him,that is,on Christ Jesus.When they heard,they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

The ones who were "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" were the same people who the Baptist addressed.

You want us to believe that all those who were baptized with John´s "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" had to be re-baptized with another baptism of rewpentance for the remission ofsins.

But we can clearly see that Paul´s concern was whether or not these men had received the Holy Spirit--"Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?"(v.2).

When they said that they had not,then Paul laid his hands on them and they did receive the Holy Spirit.

And in the present dispensation Paul reveals that there is ONE BAPTISM (Eph.4:5).And if we use our common sense we can see that the ONE BAPTISM is the SPIRIT BAPTISM with which we are BAPTIZED into the Body of Christ:

"For by ONE SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

Are you willing to argue that the ONE BAPTISM is a WATER BAPTISM and the baptism when we are baptized into His Body by the Holy Spirit is of no effect?

Our salvation is completely SPIRITUAL.When we hear and believe the NEW TESTAMENT (which is described as of the SPIRIT-2Cor.3:6,8) we are at that time baptized by the SPIRIT into His Body.

It is an error to maintain that water baptism is the one baptism of Eph.4:5.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Francisco]

Jerry,

You are the one that claims John the Baptist was forgiving sins, because you read that into the text. I ask you again, why did Jesus need to suffer and die for our sins if the Baptist was already capable of forgiving sins?

In regard to your misunderstandings about the sin offerings of the Mosaic Covenant, have you ever wondered why those sin offerings were continually made? They were made to appease God for the sins committed by men, NOT for forgiveness of sin.

Forgiveness of sin was impossible until Jesus Christ redeemed us through his death and resurrection.

God Bless,

Francisco

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Francisco,

You say that forgiveness of sins was impossible until Jesus Christ redeemed us through His death and resurrection.

But how do you explain the fact that God was saving men before the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus?

How do you explain the fact that the Lord Jesus Himself was forgiving the sins of sinners before He died on the Cross (Lk.7:47)?

No,you would rather believe the doctrine of the church at Rome even if it is in conflict with the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.

You don´t understand even the simplest things of Scripture,and you will even deny that those who received John´s baptism did not have their sins forgiven,even though Scripture states that that baptism is called "the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS".

I am sure that you will not believe anything I say if it conflicts with the teaching of Rome,because you will not believe the plain teaching of Scripture when it is in conflict with what Rome says.