The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
agape:
I know, I know, 'you and God are the majority', and all these folks have it all wrong....
Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated (born again) in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).
Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).
John Chrysostom
"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
It appears you are in disagreement with the majority of the early fathers, who seem to recognize water baptism as salvific, while also recognizing baptism by the spirit, neither precluding the other and both being salvific.
I know, I know, 'you and God are the majority', and all these folks have it all wrong....
Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated (born again) in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).
Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).
John Chrysostom
"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).
agape
New member
Originally posted by Francisco
agape:
Yes, it does appear that way. It also appears that God is in disagreement with the majority of the early fathers too.
Yep, they do, but only when they disagree with what God and Jesus Christ taught which is to be baptized with the holy spirit or born of Spirit...same thing.
Wrong...it conflicts with Jesus Christ HIMSELF saying; "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated (born again) in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).Wrong. They are not in agreement with God, His Son Jesus Christ and the Apostles who were "called" by Christ. Christ HIMSELF said; BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST."
WRONG...total private interpretation. Jesus HIMSELF STILL SAID: BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."
ALL LIES...born again of spiritual water is more accurate. No one is born again of water (h20)...lol...at least not according to God's Word which really matters. Nevertheless, Christ HIMSELF said: BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."
WRONG--CHRIST HIMSELF SAID: BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."
WRONG...A TOTAL CONTRADICTION OF THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD.
CONCLUSION: CHRIST HIMSELF SAID: BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."
I stand with God and with His Son, Jesus Christ and no so-called sayings of any of the early church fathers, save the Apostle who were SPECIFICALLY CALLED OUT BY JESUS CHRIST.
BTW--where's all the answers to all the questions I asked concerning water baptism...eh...??
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Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Yes, Jesus baptizes with the HS. But Spirit baptism (Acts 2:3, Acts 10:44) is NOT the "ONE" baptism that is spoken of in Ephesians 4:5, because it was never commanded of us.
The only baptism that Jesus commanded was a baptism that MAN must perform, because Jesus commanded MAN to do it. MAN, not Jesus. If you read the Great Commission, Jesus was speaking to the apostles (MAN), and everything in there was meant for MAN to carry out. C.Moore, man cannot perform Spirit baptism, Christ does. Therefore, the "ONE" baptism must be one that MAN can carry out, because MAN was commanded to baptize by Jesus after His death! Well, man can certainly perform water baptism in the name of the Lord, and this is exactly what the apostles preached and did and is the new covenant baptism that Jesus commanded after His death on the cross for all nations and is for all people for all time!
Just because baptism in the name of the Lord uses water, it is NOT the same as the baptism of Jonn. The baptism of John uses water, yes, but this doesn't baptize you in His name, nor does it baptize you into His death, for Christ hadnt' died yet. Nor does John's baptism impart the gift of the Holy Spirit as baptism in the name of Jesus does (Acts 2:38). After the death of the Cross, Jesus's baptism was instituted for man to carry out in the great commission. And this is what is carried out by man, just as commanded.
You just have this hang up that just because the baptism in the name of the Lord involves water, that it can't be spiritual. It IS spiritual, but it is different that than when the HS falls upon people (Spirit baptism) and gives them miraculous gifts (Acts 2:3, Acts 10:44). Baptism in the name of the Lord uses water (Acts 10:47-48) and does give us the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38). This is not the miraculous gifts of the HS, which is what happens in Spirit baptism. No, rather, it is the literal gift of God's Spirit within us. And if we have this Spirit, which is obtained through baptism (Acts 2:38), God will give life to our mortal bodies (Romans 8:11). We know from Romans 6 that baptism makes us ALIVE to God, so Romans 8:11 verifies this. So baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water, is spiritual.
Yes, Jesus baptizes with the HS. But Spirit baptism (Acts 2:3, Acts 10:44) is NOT the "ONE" baptism that is spoken of in Ephesians 4:5, because it was never commanded of us.
The only baptism that Jesus commanded was a baptism that MAN must perform, because Jesus commanded MAN to do it. MAN, not Jesus. If you read the Great Commission, Jesus was speaking to the apostles (MAN), and everything in there was meant for MAN to carry out. C.Moore, man cannot perform Spirit baptism, Christ does. Therefore, the "ONE" baptism must be one that MAN can carry out, because MAN was commanded to baptize by Jesus after His death! Well, man can certainly perform water baptism in the name of the Lord, and this is exactly what the apostles preached and did and is the new covenant baptism that Jesus commanded after His death on the cross for all nations and is for all people for all time!
Just because baptism in the name of the Lord uses water, it is NOT the same as the baptism of Jonn. The baptism of John uses water, yes, but this doesn't baptize you in His name, nor does it baptize you into His death, for Christ hadnt' died yet. Nor does John's baptism impart the gift of the Holy Spirit as baptism in the name of Jesus does (Acts 2:38). After the death of the Cross, Jesus's baptism was instituted for man to carry out in the great commission. And this is what is carried out by man, just as commanded.
You just have this hang up that just because the baptism in the name of the Lord involves water, that it can't be spiritual. It IS spiritual, but it is different that than when the HS falls upon people (Spirit baptism) and gives them miraculous gifts (Acts 2:3, Acts 10:44). Baptism in the name of the Lord uses water (Acts 10:47-48) and does give us the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38). This is not the miraculous gifts of the HS, which is what happens in Spirit baptism. No, rather, it is the literal gift of God's Spirit within us. And if we have this Spirit, which is obtained through baptism (Acts 2:38), God will give life to our mortal bodies (Romans 8:11). We know from Romans 6 that baptism makes us ALIVE to God, so Romans 8:11 verifies this. So baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water, is spiritual.
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Kevin
New member
Agape,
In response to what you said to Francisco:
Oh please. You are the one who is a cop out.
Francisco has shown that the ECF's realized that baptism involves water. What do you say? Something like "I don't care how far back one can trace their belief in water baptism which is man's doctrine. All I care about is what the Bible teaches..."
Just what do you think they were basing their conclusions on? Was it not the same scriptures that you read today?
Did Philip mess up by baptizing the eunuch in water, which was after the death of the cross?
Speaking of Philip, he was a deacon chosen by the twleve apostles. Peter was one of those apostles. It's quite clear that Philip baptized in literal water. Where do you think Philip learned this? The apostles! Why would Peter baptize any differently (than Philip) in Acts 10:47-48? He wouldn't. Peter meant exactly what he said: "Can anyone forbid WATER that these should not be BAPTIZED...". And those people were in the very next verse. This is what Peter practiced, and this is what Philip practiced. So, why would Peter and Philip practice two different things?
I've also exposed the error of your "everybody is HS baptized upon belief of the gospel" theory. For this didn't NOT happen to the Samaritans in Acts 8:5-16. You said that the apostles had to travel up there to "correct" the situation. Again, I ask, did Jesus mess up or something, because after all it is HE that baptizes with the HS. Answer the question of WHY these people didn't get HS baptized upon hearing the word, and then reconcile your answer with your belief that EVERYBODY is supposed to automatically get Spirit baptized upon belief.
And will you ever address my arguements as to why Spirit baptism doesn't save?
In response to what you said to Francisco:
Oh please. You are the one who is a cop out.
Francisco has shown that the ECF's realized that baptism involves water. What do you say? Something like "I don't care how far back one can trace their belief in water baptism which is man's doctrine. All I care about is what the Bible teaches..."
Just what do you think they were basing their conclusions on? Was it not the same scriptures that you read today?
Did Philip mess up by baptizing the eunuch in water, which was after the death of the cross?
Speaking of Philip, he was a deacon chosen by the twleve apostles. Peter was one of those apostles. It's quite clear that Philip baptized in literal water. Where do you think Philip learned this? The apostles! Why would Peter baptize any differently (than Philip) in Acts 10:47-48? He wouldn't. Peter meant exactly what he said: "Can anyone forbid WATER that these should not be BAPTIZED...". And those people were in the very next verse. This is what Peter practiced, and this is what Philip practiced. So, why would Peter and Philip practice two different things?
I've also exposed the error of your "everybody is HS baptized upon belief of the gospel" theory. For this didn't NOT happen to the Samaritans in Acts 8:5-16. You said that the apostles had to travel up there to "correct" the situation. Again, I ask, did Jesus mess up or something, because after all it is HE that baptizes with the HS. Answer the question of WHY these people didn't get HS baptized upon hearing the word, and then reconcile your answer with your belief that EVERYBODY is supposed to automatically get Spirit baptized upon belief.
And will you ever address my arguements as to why Spirit baptism doesn't save?
itsjustdave1988
Member
Jesus establish the use of water in the sacrament of initiation, what the Scholastics would call the “matter” of the sacrament. We are not saying the Holy Spirit is excluded. We are not saying that it is magical water. We simply admit that Jesus used matter to convey grace (e.g. mud on eyes to cure the blind). Does Jesus need matter to perform these miracles? I dunno. What is clear, however, is that he does ues matter.
John 9:15 - Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."
Baptismal water does not merely make us wet. Neither did the mud merely make the blind man dirty. God uses matter (water, mud, etc) to conveys to us his santifying grace.
Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be “born again” (John 3:3). To clarify matters for Nicodemus and all others, Christ further says that “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Jn 3:5).
John 9:15 - Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."
Baptismal water does not merely make us wet. Neither did the mud merely make the blind man dirty. God uses matter (water, mud, etc) to conveys to us his santifying grace.
Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be “born again” (John 3:3). To clarify matters for Nicodemus and all others, Christ further says that “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Jn 3:5).
HopeofGlory
New member
itsjustdave1988
Typical example of indoctrination, you misquoted the Lord Jesus.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)
Two "borns" are referred to, one of the Spirit and one of water.
"Born of water" not born again of water.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit (not water and Spirit) is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
Sorry but you will not prove your doctrine of "born again of water" with the word of God.
In Christ
Craig
Typical example of indoctrination, you misquoted the Lord Jesus.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5 (KJV)
Two "borns" are referred to, one of the Spirit and one of water.
"Born of water" not born again of water.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit (not water and Spirit) is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
Sorry but you will not prove your doctrine of "born again of water" with the word of God.
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
Kevin
And it is what the Baptist practiced and it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. This practice was part of the kingdom message that Christ instructed the apostles to not deliver to the Gentiles (Matt 10:5).
Peter and John preached the Gospel of the circumcision which is void of the new testament message that Christ died for our sins thus no Spirit baptism into the body.
For by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
And it is what the Baptist practiced and it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. This practice was part of the kingdom message that Christ instructed the apostles to not deliver to the Gentiles (Matt 10:5).
Peter and John preached the Gospel of the circumcision which is void of the new testament message that Christ died for our sins thus no Spirit baptism into the body.
For by one Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Evangelion
New member
Agape -
Really? So when Peter called for water so that "these might be baptised, which have received the Holy Spirit, as we have", what was he talking about?
Really? So when Peter called for water so that "these might be baptised, which have received the Holy Spirit, as we have", what was he talking about?
Evangelion
New member
Craig -
Thanks for emphasising the clear distinction between baptism and Spirit.
Thanks for emphasising the clear distinction between baptism and Spirit.
HopeofGlory
New member
Evangelion
The clear meaning is the Spirit baptizes ALL into the body.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
Compare to:
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Mark 1:8 (KJV)
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. John 3:27 (KJV)
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. John 3:28 (KJV)
Compare to:
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
The clear meaning is the Spirit baptizes ALL into the body.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
Compare to:
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Mark 1:8 (KJV)
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. John 3:27 (KJV)
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. John 3:28 (KJV)
Compare to:
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Evangelion
New member
"The clear meaning"? When Paul is deliberately emphasising a direct contrast between the two?
Dream on.
Dream on.
Kevin
New member
HopeofGlory,
Well, yes, Christ told them not to deliver it to the Gentiles because they were still under the Old covenent. God's grace had not been extended to the Gentiles at the point in time.
After He died on the cross, he told the apostles to go out into all nations and preach the word, baptize, and teach that His commanments should be observed by all people (Matt. 28:19-20).
After the death on the cross, the apostles did just that. Water baptism in the name of the Lord was practiced, and not only to the Jews. The Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48, just as the Jews were in Acts 2:38.
Sorry, that's just not true. Peter was fully aware that Christ died for our sins way back to the gospel message of Acts 2:38.
Yes, the Spirit is the word of God (Eph. 6:17), and it is by that word that people are led to the obedience of baptism, just as it happened in Acts 2:38. Peter spoke the word of God (the Spirit), and they obeyed the Spirit (the word) and were water baptized in the name of the Lord. By one Spirit they were baptized in the name of the Lord, both Jews (Acts 2:38) and Gentiles (Acts 10:47).
This is not speaking of the literal falling of the falling of the HS, as in Acts 10:44. As pointed out earlier, Acts 8:5-16, proves that the HS does not automatically fall everybody who believes the gospel.
Not to mention that Spirit baptism cannot be performed by man, therefore it can't be the "ONE" baptism. Jesus commanded MAN to baptize, not Himself.
Well, yes, Christ told them not to deliver it to the Gentiles because they were still under the Old covenent. God's grace had not been extended to the Gentiles at the point in time.
After He died on the cross, he told the apostles to go out into all nations and preach the word, baptize, and teach that His commanments should be observed by all people (Matt. 28:19-20).
After the death on the cross, the apostles did just that. Water baptism in the name of the Lord was practiced, and not only to the Jews. The Gentiles were baptized in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48, just as the Jews were in Acts 2:38.
Sorry, that's just not true. Peter was fully aware that Christ died for our sins way back to the gospel message of Acts 2:38.
Yes, the Spirit is the word of God (Eph. 6:17), and it is by that word that people are led to the obedience of baptism, just as it happened in Acts 2:38. Peter spoke the word of God (the Spirit), and they obeyed the Spirit (the word) and were water baptized in the name of the Lord. By one Spirit they were baptized in the name of the Lord, both Jews (Acts 2:38) and Gentiles (Acts 10:47).
This is not speaking of the literal falling of the falling of the HS, as in Acts 10:44. As pointed out earlier, Acts 8:5-16, proves that the HS does not automatically fall everybody who believes the gospel.
Not to mention that Spirit baptism cannot be performed by man, therefore it can't be the "ONE" baptism. Jesus commanded MAN to baptize, not Himself.
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c.moore
New member
you said:
After the death of the Cross, Jesus's baptism was instituted for man to carry out in the great commission. And this is what is carried out by man, just as commanded.
Where does it say this about the new water baptism after the cross?
What do you think this meant when Jesus Christ said IT IS FINISHED??
Do you think Jesus gave us A new commandment of baptism just to see or test if we obey or not???
Do you Kevin like doing the commandment or taking the grace of God a gift of you being just and righteous Rom5:18???
You said:
You just have this hang up that just because the baptism in the name of the Lord involves water, that it can't be spiritual.
I look at water baptism like I look at when I take my communion everyday it really bread, and wine I take, but take it in rememberance of jesus and what He done for me and that the wine is for the forgiveness, but I take the Lord supper in the spirit that helps heal my body and renew my mind that I shouldn`t be sick that Jesus paid it all on the cross, and I have to look at this spiritually .
I don`t do it like the Catholic think really they< have a finger nail of jesus or piece of Jesusleg that they are eating and some real blood of jesus that magically turns into the things of Jesus in to this world.
No, I take the water baptism as a symbol or rememberance that what the Cross has done and how I come out the water new in Christ which show what happen in the spiritual world of God.
Just like the blood of Jesus I think you as for repentance in faith and in the spirit Kevin.
remember the spiritual thing are invisible to the natural eye, so water ,and things you see even the visible cross that is maybe in a church has no power,and can give us salvation.
A lady came to me and said she is a catholic and she is going to heaven because she wears a cross all the time and this cross on her kneck is proof that she is a chrsitian and we go to heaven.
Another lady said , they have big pictures of Jesus on the wall, and light candles, and bow down and worship Mary and this is a commandment they must do to be saved.
But none of these natural ritual saves, and this is what I am , and many other are showing you about your water baptism is not salvation, and it is not a part of your salvation, but we should do it as you live and walk in your christian walk as being led by the Spirit to get baptized,as a follower of Christ.
Jesus didn`t get watered baptized to get saved, and the same reason is like for us to carry the anointing when we get Spiritual baptized and recieve power not recieve rules and regulation and types.
I did see some people recieve the Holy Spirit baptism as they came out the water in Florida Pensa Cola revival baptism.
Just a question was barabas watered baptized???
You said:So baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water, is spiritual. [/QUOTE]
How do you know when a baptism is a spiritual water baptism, or when it is John the baptist baptism???
Do you put up a sign in front of your church and say today is water spiritual baptism, and tomorrow water wet baptism???
my church doesn`t anounce when we have communion ,that we are having a spiritual bread and wine Lord Supper, because it`s taken after the death of Christ.
We don`t anounce either that the Lord supper before Christ is just the normal Lord supper with out the spirit.
get my point?
before I close, if you think Jesus had a new institution of water baptism then we must have two types of water baptism, and two spiritual birth Kevin
God Bless you
c.moore
New member
QUOTE]Originally posted by Francisco
c.moore,
If water baptism was no longer necessary, having been replaced with 'Spiritual' baptism, why did Philip baptize the eunuch with water in Acts 8?
Why did Peter insist on water for baptizing the gentiles in Cornelius house in Acts 10? After all, these men already had the Holy Spirit descend on them.
What was Paul talking about when he told the crowd at Jerusalem to be baptized and WASH away their sins in Acts 22?
How can baptism be the antitype of the flood water (1 Peter 3:21) if baptism is not with water?
BTW, the baptism of John the Baptist was a symbol of repentance only. The water baptism performed by Jesus' disciples was a baptism into the salvific accomplishments of Jesus' death and resurrection.
God Bless,
Francisco [/QUOTE]
This was a traditional act for the people and it`s was not a sin to continue do practise this old John the baptism ritual even though they knew it was not salvation, they knew believing in Christ was salvation and getting filled with the Holy Spirit was the main thing to do.
Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Why would Eunuch ask a question or permission to get water baptism if this was a commandment , or if it had any effect on his belief or had something to do with his salvation???
This would be a silly question,that you wouldn`t have to ask,you would just do with no doubt.
Even look at Philip, he mention only about belief only according to verse 37 , and it was Eunuch that asked not Philip,and if Philip thought this was so important for salvation Philip would have told Eunuch he must get baptized because Philip was a preacher or a evangelist according to verse 40 praise God.
In Ac:10:46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac:10:48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
notice again this is a question asked like in Act 8.
This is the same princible that belief is what saves in Jesus and the baptism of the Holy Ghost was that which people waited for and recieved,but the ritual of John the baptist and customs was still in thier practise,or minds.
Basically it was a tradition that people ask to do.
It`like when we close our eyes and sometimes fold our hands in prayer as a tradition ,it `s ok , but it`s not in the bible we must do these things.
In Acts 22 the water baptism was not the washing of our sins, the washing is the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins and make us righteous and just.
This is not saying Ananais is refering that we need natural water and soap to wash our sins or that water has to clean us.
The people new that Jesus is Lord and savior and believe Christ, not John baptismal.Christ is the good news, the way the truth , and the life.Plus Ananais was being obedient to Jesus by going to Saul
In verse 16 in Chapter 22 of Acts , why would Ananias say stop tarrying???
Look also what kind of man was Ananias according to verse 12.
A man of law,so what does this tell you about doing traditions water baptism,it was just for saul at that time and saul was also a man of knowing the laws.
You said: What was Paul talking about when he told the crowd at Jerusalem to be baptized and WASH away their sins in Acts 22?
What verse is this that Paul said this
In the flood did the boat go down under water??
Notice they was saved not by the water , but by the boat.
We are saved the same, but Jesus in us , and we in Him.
trusting and believing is what saves us like Noah trust God in saving him by building the boat.
It`s Jesus that saves,not the water, just like the antitype the boat saved not the water.
You said:the baptism of John the Baptist was a symbol of repentance only.
Then what did the blood of Jesus do???
What does believing the word of God does??
What does faith and trusting Christ do????
Does Jesus death need water to be accepted???
if so scripture that says that.
God bless you
c.moore,
If water baptism was no longer necessary, having been replaced with 'Spiritual' baptism, why did Philip baptize the eunuch with water in Acts 8?
Why did Peter insist on water for baptizing the gentiles in Cornelius house in Acts 10? After all, these men already had the Holy Spirit descend on them.
What was Paul talking about when he told the crowd at Jerusalem to be baptized and WASH away their sins in Acts 22?
How can baptism be the antitype of the flood water (1 Peter 3:21) if baptism is not with water?
BTW, the baptism of John the Baptist was a symbol of repentance only. The water baptism performed by Jesus' disciples was a baptism into the salvific accomplishments of Jesus' death and resurrection.
God Bless,
Francisco [/QUOTE]
This was a traditional act for the people and it`s was not a sin to continue do practise this old John the baptism ritual even though they knew it was not salvation, they knew believing in Christ was salvation and getting filled with the Holy Spirit was the main thing to do.
Ac:8:36: And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Why would Eunuch ask a question or permission to get water baptism if this was a commandment , or if it had any effect on his belief or had something to do with his salvation???
This would be a silly question,that you wouldn`t have to ask,you would just do with no doubt.
Even look at Philip, he mention only about belief only according to verse 37 , and it was Eunuch that asked not Philip,and if Philip thought this was so important for salvation Philip would have told Eunuch he must get baptized because Philip was a preacher or a evangelist according to verse 40 praise God.
In Ac:10:46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac:10:48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
notice again this is a question asked like in Act 8.
This is the same princible that belief is what saves in Jesus and the baptism of the Holy Ghost was that which people waited for and recieved,but the ritual of John the baptist and customs was still in thier practise,or minds.
Basically it was a tradition that people ask to do.
It`like when we close our eyes and sometimes fold our hands in prayer as a tradition ,it `s ok , but it`s not in the bible we must do these things.
In Acts 22 the water baptism was not the washing of our sins, the washing is the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins and make us righteous and just.
This is not saying Ananais is refering that we need natural water and soap to wash our sins or that water has to clean us.
The people new that Jesus is Lord and savior and believe Christ, not John baptismal.Christ is the good news, the way the truth , and the life.Plus Ananais was being obedient to Jesus by going to Saul
In verse 16 in Chapter 22 of Acts , why would Ananias say stop tarrying???
Look also what kind of man was Ananias according to verse 12.
A man of law,so what does this tell you about doing traditions water baptism,it was just for saul at that time and saul was also a man of knowing the laws.
You said: What was Paul talking about when he told the crowd at Jerusalem to be baptized and WASH away their sins in Acts 22?
What verse is this that Paul said this
In the flood did the boat go down under water??
Notice they was saved not by the water , but by the boat.
We are saved the same, but Jesus in us , and we in Him.
trusting and believing is what saves us like Noah trust God in saving him by building the boat.
It`s Jesus that saves,not the water, just like the antitype the boat saved not the water.
You said:the baptism of John the Baptist was a symbol of repentance only.
Then what did the blood of Jesus do???
What does believing the word of God does??
What does faith and trusting Christ do????
Does Jesus death need water to be accepted???
if so scripture that says that.
God bless you
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Matthew 28:19-20, where Jesus was talking to His apostles (man), and commanded them to:
This is what I've been trying to tell you. Jesus told MAN to baptize, not Himself! Knowing that man cannot perform Spirit baptism, there's no way it could be the "ONE" baptism spoken of in Ephesians 4:5, because Spirit baptism was never commanded of man.
After the death on the cross, Jesus told His apostles (man) to go out preaching and baptizing. This is exactly what the apostles did. The eunuch was baptized in water, after the death of the cross, after Jesus instituted His new baptism for all nations. The Gentiles were baptized with water in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48.
The baptism in the name of the Lord was instituted after the death on the cross, and is certainly not John's baptism. You won't find it being practiced before His death. But it certainly uses water... or else explain the eunuch (Acts 8:37) and the Gentiles (Acts 10:47-48), both which happened after the cross.
That Jesus had accomplished what He set out to do: die for us that we may live in Him.
To test us? Of course not. Jesus gave the commandment of baptism because baptism does the following for us:
That is what baptism does for us, and that is why Jesus commanded it, because we need it. Look at the list above for what baptism does for us and ask yourself if one could go to heaven without having all those things apply to him.
I've already explained about the free gift and what that means. In fact, the verse you listed supports me. Rom. 5:18 says that the free gift came to ALL men. All men. This falls in line with what I've been saying, that God poured out His grace when He didn't have to (this of course applies to all man). He did this by sending His Son to die for all mankind, that we may have eternal life through Him. That is the free gift.
But now that we know the free gift has come to ALL men, we know that not all men will be saved. But why not? The free gift had come to "ALL MEN", right? Because, as I've been saying this entire time, there are requirements that need to be met BEFORE one can have that saving grace. If there were no requirements, then ALL men would go to heaven, because the gift came to ALL men, but we both know that's not the case (we know that ALL men WONT go to heaven). There ARE requirements, or else all would make it! And meeting those requirements is not "earning" your salvation, for we could not earn it. But God does expect us to meet those requirements! Baptism in one of those requirements (Mark 16:16).
Then your looking at baptism in the wrong way. It was not instituted for us to remember Jesus and what He did for us, it was instituted for the reasons I listed above. Baptism is what frees us from sin, makes us alive to God, let's us walk in the newness of life (reborn), and puts us in Christ (see my above list for verses). Baptism's purpose is a far different purpose than that of the Lord's supper, which is memorialize Christ and His sacrifice for us.
To my knowledge, no. It really makes no difference though because he couldn't have been baptized in the name of the Lord. He could not be baptized into a death that hadn't happened yet. Why do you bring up Barabas? This is the guy that the Jews elected to set free instead of Jesus, before the crucifixtion had even begun. Are you referring to the thief on the cross, who is an entirely different person?
The thief on the cross was forgiven because Christ had the authority to forgive sins on earth. While that's great and all, before the death on the cross, the only way that people's sins were forgiven were if they had the honor of meeting Jesus and having Him forgive their sins. What about everybody else, who didn't have this luxury of being able to come to Christ and have Him forgive their sins?
After Christ died, he made the means available by which ALL mankind can have their sins forgiven - baptism in His name (Matt 28:19-20). This is why He commanded it. I have already shown that baptism does indeed free us from sin. Jesus isn't walking around in the flesh anymore telling people that their sins are forgiven, because He has already provided a means for people to have their sins washed away: baptism.
And as I said about Barabas, the thief on the cross couldn't possibly be baptized into His death... it hadn't happened yet.
Because the baptism of John is not in effect. Being baptized in the name of the Lord is NOT John's baptism. You will not find anybody being baptized in the name of the Lord until after the death of the cross. When this baptism was instituted, John's baptism became void.
I've said in the past there is nothing magical about the water. When you are baptized in the name of the Lord, it uses real, wet, wet water (Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47-48). Upon being baptized in the name of the Lord, IN WATER, we recieve the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38). This gift is the literal gift of God's Spirit dwelling in us.
Nope. There's only one: baptism in the name of the Lord. This is what was commanded of all nations and was carried out by the apostles. This is the "ONE" baptism Paul spoke of. He practiced what he preached.
There aren't two water baptisms, because John's baptism was made void by the new one that Jesus istituted in Matt. 28:19-20.
Matthew 28:19-20, where Jesus was talking to His apostles (man), and commanded them to:
- Make disciples of all nations
- Baptize in the name of the Fahter, Son, and Holy Spirit
- Teach people to observe all things that Jesus had commanded them
This is what I've been trying to tell you. Jesus told MAN to baptize, not Himself! Knowing that man cannot perform Spirit baptism, there's no way it could be the "ONE" baptism spoken of in Ephesians 4:5, because Spirit baptism was never commanded of man.
After the death on the cross, Jesus told His apostles (man) to go out preaching and baptizing. This is exactly what the apostles did. The eunuch was baptized in water, after the death of the cross, after Jesus instituted His new baptism for all nations. The Gentiles were baptized with water in the name of the Lord in Acts 10:47-48.
The baptism in the name of the Lord was instituted after the death on the cross, and is certainly not John's baptism. You won't find it being practiced before His death. But it certainly uses water... or else explain the eunuch (Acts 8:37) and the Gentiles (Acts 10:47-48), both which happened after the cross.
That Jesus had accomplished what He set out to do: die for us that we may live in Him.
To test us? Of course not. Jesus gave the commandment of baptism because baptism does the following for us:
- It frees us from sin (Romans 6:6,7, Acts 2:38)
- It makes us dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11)
- It allows us to walk in the newness of life - being reborn (Romans 6:4)
- It puts us in Christ (Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27)
That is what baptism does for us, and that is why Jesus commanded it, because we need it. Look at the list above for what baptism does for us and ask yourself if one could go to heaven without having all those things apply to him.
I've already explained about the free gift and what that means. In fact, the verse you listed supports me. Rom. 5:18 says that the free gift came to ALL men. All men. This falls in line with what I've been saying, that God poured out His grace when He didn't have to (this of course applies to all man). He did this by sending His Son to die for all mankind, that we may have eternal life through Him. That is the free gift.
But now that we know the free gift has come to ALL men, we know that not all men will be saved. But why not? The free gift had come to "ALL MEN", right? Because, as I've been saying this entire time, there are requirements that need to be met BEFORE one can have that saving grace. If there were no requirements, then ALL men would go to heaven, because the gift came to ALL men, but we both know that's not the case (we know that ALL men WONT go to heaven). There ARE requirements, or else all would make it! And meeting those requirements is not "earning" your salvation, for we could not earn it. But God does expect us to meet those requirements! Baptism in one of those requirements (Mark 16:16).
Then your looking at baptism in the wrong way. It was not instituted for us to remember Jesus and what He did for us, it was instituted for the reasons I listed above. Baptism is what frees us from sin, makes us alive to God, let's us walk in the newness of life (reborn), and puts us in Christ (see my above list for verses). Baptism's purpose is a far different purpose than that of the Lord's supper, which is memorialize Christ and His sacrifice for us.
To my knowledge, no. It really makes no difference though because he couldn't have been baptized in the name of the Lord. He could not be baptized into a death that hadn't happened yet. Why do you bring up Barabas? This is the guy that the Jews elected to set free instead of Jesus, before the crucifixtion had even begun. Are you referring to the thief on the cross, who is an entirely different person?
The thief on the cross was forgiven because Christ had the authority to forgive sins on earth. While that's great and all, before the death on the cross, the only way that people's sins were forgiven were if they had the honor of meeting Jesus and having Him forgive their sins. What about everybody else, who didn't have this luxury of being able to come to Christ and have Him forgive their sins?
After Christ died, he made the means available by which ALL mankind can have their sins forgiven - baptism in His name (Matt 28:19-20). This is why He commanded it. I have already shown that baptism does indeed free us from sin. Jesus isn't walking around in the flesh anymore telling people that their sins are forgiven, because He has already provided a means for people to have their sins washed away: baptism.
And as I said about Barabas, the thief on the cross couldn't possibly be baptized into His death... it hadn't happened yet.
Because the baptism of John is not in effect. Being baptized in the name of the Lord is NOT John's baptism. You will not find anybody being baptized in the name of the Lord until after the death of the cross. When this baptism was instituted, John's baptism became void.
I've said in the past there is nothing magical about the water. When you are baptized in the name of the Lord, it uses real, wet, wet water (Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47-48). Upon being baptized in the name of the Lord, IN WATER, we recieve the gift of the HS (Acts 2:38). This gift is the literal gift of God's Spirit dwelling in us.
Nope. There's only one: baptism in the name of the Lord. This is what was commanded of all nations and was carried out by the apostles. This is the "ONE" baptism Paul spoke of. He practiced what he preached.
There aren't two water baptisms, because John's baptism was made void by the new one that Jesus istituted in Matt. 28:19-20.
Last edited:
c.moore
New member
Kevin
I have to get my tv program ready for tomorrow so I`ll be back with a deep reply on what you mention, with some deep facts that shows this is another gospel you believe.
I really can`t believe you teach this stuff you said.
But we still have people believeing the world id still flat, and 1+1=3, it is had to convinve they are decieved and have wrong information.
You are looking more like these people to me Kevin, but I know, you would say the same to me, I here this from The Jehovah Witness and mormons every week.
Please don`t get me wrong I know you are not one of those cults.
You just got some things mixed up.
Sleep good Kevin
bye
I have to get my tv program ready for tomorrow so I`ll be back with a deep reply on what you mention, with some deep facts that shows this is another gospel you believe.
I really can`t believe you teach this stuff you said.
But we still have people believeing the world id still flat, and 1+1=3, it is had to convinve they are decieved and have wrong information.
You are looking more like these people to me Kevin, but I know, you would say the same to me, I here this from The Jehovah Witness and mormons every week.
Please don`t get me wrong I know you are not one of those cults.
You just got some things mixed up.
Sleep good Kevin
bye
Freak
New member
Kevin,
You stated:
Jesus gave the commandment of baptism because baptism does the following for us:
It frees us from sin (Romans 6:6,7, Acts 2:38)
It makes us dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11)
It allows us to walk in the newness of life - being reborn (Romans 6:4)
It puts us in Christ (Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27)
Let's focus on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, instead of baptism.
You stated:
Jesus gave the commandment of baptism because baptism does the following for us:
It frees us from sin (Romans 6:6,7, Acts 2:38)
It makes us dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11)
It allows us to walk in the newness of life - being reborn (Romans 6:4)
It puts us in Christ (Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27)
Let's focus on Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, instead of baptism.