ECT The Gospel Proper

[Rosenritter]

What it is, is that that Grace that was Promised Israel by Covenant in Prophecy - Israel's New Covenant's ENABLEMENT - is given God's Mystery Age New Creature: The Body, By Grace.

Both made possible by the Blood of Christ.

But they are not the same, nor does their enablement function the same.

But both are an aspect within God's TWO-Fold Purpose: Prophecy (the Earth that a one day redeemed back unto God Israel will reign over) and Mystery (the Heavenly realm that God's New Creature: the Body of Christ, will one day reign over).

Mix them up and what one is doing is nothing more than building that wood, hay, and stubble, that one will one day find out, had been just that - wood, hay, and stubble - for the day shall declare it - 1 Cor. 3:13.

This assumes the person was saved to begin with.

For Paul's Mystery Grace Age preaching was rightly not, a works for salvation gospel.

What about you, are you saved, Rosenritter?

Let's get that out of the way, first.

This here...

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

In other words ALL of Romans 5: 6-11.

It's an important distinction within God's present, Paul's Christ given Mystery Grace Age, Ephesians 1 thru 3.

I'm still stuck on where you're saying that the New Covenant is not of grace.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you know what Jesus says to do so that you do not perish?

…unless you repent, you too will all perish; Luke 13:3.

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent" is "a change of mind" and the following verse demonsrates that "whoever" believes will never perish:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[God's Truth]

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent" is "a change of mind" and the following verse demonsrates that "whoever" believes will never perish:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

No. Repent means change your mind about sin. We are to repent of our sins.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft.

Isaiah 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. None of them repent of their wickedness, saying, “What have I done?” Each pursues their own course like a horse charging into battle.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

 

[God's Truth]

The Lord Jesus only spoke of "believing" in the following passage:

Jesus didn’t only speak of believing.

That is bizarre to say that is the only thing Jesus said to do.
How do you ever get that telling us to believe will nullify all the other things Jesus says, such as repent or perish?

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).

We have to believe in the man Jesus and all that he says. We have to believe that we have to go through him to get to the Father. Jesus tells us what to do to get in him.

What the Lord said is either true or it is false and He said nothing about "works" of any kind being required for this blessing. I believe what He said is true and your teaching denies His words.

Jesus spoke a lot of things to do.

Here is one thing that the Lord Jesus commanded them to do so do you obey the following commandment which He gave them?:

Do you really think that is all Jesus commanded?
You are badly mistaken if you think that.
Jesus said to believe in him, to repent of sins, and that he forgives sins. Jesus taught many things. He said to forgive others. He said to not lust in your heart, and to not hate; and other such things.

 

[Danoh]

No. Repent means change your mind about sin. We are to repent of our sins.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft.

Isaiah 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. None of them repent of their wickedness, saying, “What have I done?” Each pursues their own course like a horse charging into battle.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

"Johnny lost his balance. As he fell, he accidently kicked the dog."

"When Deb's mom saw what Spot did, she became so furious that she kicked the dog out of the house."

"I don't like you anymore - because you kicked the dog, when you thought I wasn't looking."

Here is your ilogic...

"Kicked" means "kicked the dog."

No, it does not.

It depends on where and how the word "kicked" is being used.

As in "kicked the dog."

As in..."kicked off his reelection campaign."

As in "kicked certain ideas around."

As in the street slang "kicked it with my friends."

As in "guess who kicked the bucket, the other day?"

And so on.

ALL words are like that.

Including the word "repent."

You would do yourself some good to study out in Scripture what the word "repent" means by itself.

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

In other words, lest they change their mind about having left Egypt and decide to return.

That is what repent means - to change one's mind about a thing; to turn from it.

Exodus 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Turn from...repent of...change your mind about...and the Lord changed His mind about pouring out His wrath upon the people.

And so on...

In the spirit (or heart attitude) of Paul's...

1 Thessalonians 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

Because Romans 5: 6-8.

 

[Danoh]

I'm still stuck on where you're saying that the New Covenant is not of grace.

Obviously, you see that that is not what I am saying.

And I meant what I asked you - do you believe you are saved, and what is your Scriptural basis for it?

I'm just concerned about that.

Romans 5: 6-8, in each, our stead - "not of works, lest any man should boast" Eph. 2:9.

 

[Danoh]

Here's Jerry contradicting his stated view that works were not required of Israel...

When the nation of Israel was in covenant relationship with God circumcision was a requirement for the sons of Israel and any uncirumcised male was cut off from that nation:

"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you...And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant" (Gen.17:10-11,14).​

On the other hand, circumcision profits no one during the Church age, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" (Gal.5:6).​

The Scriptures reveal that when the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with the LORD the children of Israel were a special people unto Himself:

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth" (Deut.7:6).​

On the other hand, during the Church age there are no special people unto the LORD except for believers and in the Body of Christ there is no distinction between the Jews and those of other nationalities:

"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all" (Col.3:10-11).​

These facts serve to prove that when the LORD's program for Israel is in view then that program cannot be about the Body of Christ because His two different programs are mutually exclusive. In other words, when the Divine plan toward Israel is in effect then the children of Israel are above all people on the face of the earth so therefore it is impossible that at the same time the Divine plan is also toward the Body of Christ where there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

It was about time, you finally got the difference right, good sir.

:chuckle:

Romans 5:6-8.

 

[Clete]

You think Jesus didn't actually mean what He said here?

Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Jerry is trully an openly dishonest and therefore a hopeless case. He talks about what Jesus says but he Jerry picks (see what I did there )

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 18:34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Matthew 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ 29 He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?”

They said to Him, “The first.”

Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’​

And that is an incomplete list from just one gospel! I could have quoted nearly the entire 5th chapter of Matthew! To deny that the previous dispensation was all about "trust AND obey" is simply delusional nonsense. It was all conditional blessing all of the time from Moses straight through to Jesus and the Twelve and it wasn't until Paul's conversion in Acts 9 that anyone was saved by grace alone through faith alone apart from works.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[john w]

Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

And?

Fine. Sell all you have.

Let me guess-"everything" does not mean "everything."

Con artist, or intoxicated-no other option.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry is trully an openly dishonest and therefore a hopeless case.

So I am dishonest? Since you can't answer the message you try your best to assassinate the character of the messenger, showing just how petty you really are. It is you who is a hopeless case because you cannot even understand what the Lord Jesus said in the following passage He spoke to a Jewess who lived under the law:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

The Savior Himself says that the Jews who lived under the law and "believed" received the blessing of which He spoke. He mentioned no "works" of any kind as a "requirement" to receive that blessing. What He said is either true or false. I say that what He said is true.

Clete, now I am giving you a chance to shine in front of all those who agree with your teaching that the Jews could not be saved apart from "works" by telling us your interpretation of the meaning of the Lord Jesus' words at John 11:15-27.

You also quoted the following verse in a lame attempt to prove that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from "works":

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

In the following verse the Lord Jesus tells us what the Father's will is in regard to those who lived under the law:

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

Again, the only "requirement" which the Lord Jesus mentioned in order for those who lived under the law to receive this blessing is "believing." But according to your teaching believing on the Lord Jesus is not enough for those who lived under the law to receive that blessing because they could not receive that blessing apart from "works."

I have answered the first verse you quoted to try to prove that my teaching is in error so if we are going to have an "honest" discussion it is time for you to step up to the plate like a man and address John 11:25-26. Show us that you really have an intelligent answer to the Lord Jesus' words there that supports your teaching.

We read in the Bible that when Paul was ministering the word he "reasoned out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) so if your teaching is correct you should be able to give a reasonable answer to the Lord Jesus' words at John 11:25-26.

 

[God's Truth]

"Johnny lost his balance. As he fell, he accidently kicked the dog."

"When Deb's mom saw what Spot did, she became so furious that she kicked the dog out of the house."

"I don't like you anymore - because you kicked the dog, when you thought I wasn't looking."

Here is your ilogic...

"Kicked" means "kicked the dog."

No, it does not.

It depends on where and how the word "kicked" is being used.

As in "kicked the dog."

As in..."kicked off his reelection campaign."

As in "kicked certain ideas around."

As in the street slang "kicked it with my friends."

As in "guess who kicked the bucket, the other day?"

And so on.

ALL words are like that.

Including the word "repent."

That is a pathetic attempt to try to distort the truth.

Did God really say ____?"

Yes, God really says we are to repent of sins.

No wonder God hid the truth from the so called educated.

Maybe you should go back to teaching English and give up trying to talk others into not believing the scriptures.

 

[john w]

No. Repent means change your mind about sin. We are to repent of our sins.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft.

Isaiah 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. None of them repent of their wickedness, saying, “What have I done?” Each pursues their own course like a horse charging into battle.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

No, you continue to make that up.

The LORD God repented. Your "spiritual" bro, Judas, repented.

 

[God's Truth]

We are to REPENT OF OUR SINS.

The Bible plainly says it.

It is clear.

 

[JudgeRightly]

We are to REPENT OF OUR SINS.

The Bible plainly says it.

It is clear.

GT, what does "repent" mean?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here's Jerry contradicting his stated view that works were not required of Israel...

Can you not get anything right? I never said that works were not required of Israel but instead I said that "works" were not required for salvation for the Jews who lived under the law. And I have quoted the following words of the Lord Jesus to prove my point and so far none of those who share your view about salvation under the law have even attempted to give an interpretation of the meaning of His words:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Perhaps you will be the first to give us your interpretation of the meaning of His words there, words which were spoken to those who lived under the law. One thing is certain--they won't go away.

 

[john w]

That is a pathetic attempt to try to distort the truth.

Did God really say ____?"

Yes, God really says we are to repent of sins.

No wonder God hid the truth from the so called educated.

Maybe you should go back to teaching English and give up trying to talk others into not believing the scriptures.

Catch that mumbling, grumbling, moron "response?"

No, you Stooge, the biblical concept of "repent" is "to change your mind," the context tells us of what is to be repented, and you've been shown, chapter, verse, but you are too demonized, intoxicated, to see it.

You: God, Judas, repented of sins that they had committed.


On record-again.

 

[God's Truth]

ALL words are like that.

Including the word "repent."

We are talking about the word 'repent' and what it is that God wants us to repent.
The scriptures are clear that God wants us to repent OF SINS.

You would do yourself some good to study out in Scripture what the word "repent" means by itself.

You will say and do anything to protect your false beliefs.
Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?
That is what we are to do.
Believe what Jesus says.
Jesus says repent of your sins.

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

In other words, lest they change their mind about having left Egypt and decide to return.

That is what repent means - to change one's mind about a thing; to turn from it.

Exodus 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Turn from...repent of...change your mind about...and the Lord changed His mind about pouring out His wrath upon the people.

And so on...

In the spirit (or heart attitude) of Paul's...

You go against what Jesus says and you try to use different techniques to camouflage the truth and how wrong you are.
Jesus says clearly that we are to repent of our sins.

 

[john w]

We are to REPENT OF OUR SINS.

The Bible plainly says it.

It is clear.

You: The Bible plainly says that God and Judas are to repent of their sins.It is clear.

Thanks for checkin' in, Stooge.

 

[God's Truth]

GT, what does "repent" mean?

To turn from something.

We are to repent of our sins.

 

[God's Truth]

You: The Bible plainly says that God and Judas are to repent of their sins.It is clear.

Thanks for checkin' in, Stooge.

God doesn't need to repent of sins---humans have to do that.

And you call me a stooge?