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Yes...
Heb 9:10 KJV Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
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turbosixx
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It is not part of the law. Yes there were washings but they were specific. None of those specific washings are the baptism we see in the NT. Are you honestly seeking truth?
turbosixx
New member
Good guess. If we are not spiritual Israel, then maybe you can help me understand what Paul means by these comments.
Phil. 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
Col. 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
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I didn't say that they were the SAME "washing".
=deception. You: The Lord Jesus Christ told them to "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:," including " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," but he never taught them to observe, teach the law.
You lied. What is your motivation for lying?
Water baptism was part of the righteous requirements of the law. Why do you lie? The motivation?
People get that wrong all the time.
But what that is, is a reference their ministry having been sanctioned by ALL THREE.
Case in point, in Acts 2, THE SPIRIT manifests the gift of tongues, that they then base their preaching of CHRIST as having been the Son of GOD, on.
They then end all that with their mention AGAIN, of ALL THREE...
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of THE HOLY GHOST 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our GOD shall call.
The sense is that ALL THREE had sanctioned their ministry, its claims, and so on.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven AND in earth. 28:19 Go ye THEREFORE, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
They'd had a sense that the God of Israel is Triune.
Nothing new there...
Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 18:3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Isaiah 8:20
glorydaz
Well-known member
Just like loving your neighbor was a righteous requirement of the law. Trying to get Rosenritter and Turbosixx to see this seems like a daunting task, doesn't it?
Luke 10:27-28
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
All these righteous requirements of the law were works of the flesh, were they not?
Man's efforts were required.
turbosixx
New member
Good explanation. Thanks
glorydaz
Well-known member
Rosenritter will keep DEMANDING an answer. Even though you have already answered.
In truth, Rosen and Turbo demand answers because they know they are missing something, and they want to have it explained to them. It's so simple, but they are too steeped in their tradition to hear. :nono:
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't think you really want to see. It would upset the applecart you've been totin' around.
They were teaching the coming of the Messiah. They were persecuted by the unbelieving Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah. They were still keeping and preaching the law all the while. Else why did the believing Jews pitch such a fit over Paul's preaching concerning the law of Moses?
Acts 15:1-2
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
turbosixx
New member
I don't think you really want to see. It would upset the applecart you've been totin' around.
They were teaching the coming of the Messiah. They were persecuted by the unbelieving Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah. They were still keeping and preaching the law all the while. Else why did the believing Jews pitch such a fit over Paul's preaching concerning the law of Moses?
Acts 15:1-2
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
I want to know the truth. I will admit I am resistant because I need to see proof in scripture in order to change my position. I'm sorry if I come off as stubborn, I don't mean to be.
That passage you quoted is what I'm looking for. Scripture that says "they taught" or if there was something that showed the apostles instructing "observe the law". "Certain men" does not prove that the apostles taught observance of the law. These men are unnamed and took it upon themselves.
Look at the context, look what it says when the apostles find out about it.
Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,
They didn't get it from the apostles.
I'm familiar with what has been proclaimed from Pentecost on by the apostles and it's only Jesus, no law. I might be missing it somewhere so please point it out.
Your "study" of that is too narrow, fails to consider various key issues.
Paul is defending himself before unbelieving Israel, which has accused him of having polluted the Temple (and by that, himself) by his having brought a Gentile (considered unclean) into the Temple with him.
So he attempts to show them that that is not true, that he is not unclean, by mentioning that Ananias, a man they all knew was devout according to the Law, was a witness that he was not unclean.
And in his mention of this devout man according to the Law, he mentions what both they and said devout man would have understood about baptism according to the Law.
He mentions THEIR mutual understanding of THEIR water ritual for cleansing a Jew outwardly of his unclean flesh.
The practice was an Israelite ritual.
A ritual that was not new to Israel...
John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison. 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews ABOUT PURIFYING. 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Seriously, you need to get a better grasp of "context."
Nehemiah 8:8
You are right to stand your ground - until you are FULLY persuaded on any one thing otherwise, Romans 14:5.
In other words, Acts 17:11, 12.
glorydaz
Well-known member
"WE" shouldn't consider what is different as the same. :nono:
I know there was a reason, and you've admitted as much. So why don't you consider that when you read what He said while He walked among us?
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
You can read about it in Romans 11, but basically it's the way to being accepted by God. Before this, the way to God's acceptance had to be through the Jews, but now the way is opened to the Gentiles as well.
The remnant were Peter and the other believing Jews. Did the Kingdom on earth come in because of that remnant? No, it was put off, because the leaders of Israel rejected our Lord when He came.
It was agreed that Peter, James, and John would only go to the Circumcision. How can proof be given for what they did not do?
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
glorydaz
Well-known member
The problem is there were two messages being preached at the same time. Here, James is realizing that and instead of requiring Gentiles to keep the whole law, as the Jews did, he suggests they only abstain from these few "laws". This clearly shows that the twelve were still living under the law, and preaching it. That they made this "exception" for the Gentiles was a big step for a Jew who was zealous for the law.
Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Of all the people/ things to be "baptized", it was the priest who stood foremost-Exodus 29 KJV unpacks the for induction into the priest's office, the "initiation rights", if you will. Two very important steps of consecration are included:
First, cleansing-a washing with water:
Exodus 29 KJV
4 And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest’s office: Take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish, 2 and unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them. 3 And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams. 4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
...other steps-another thread.
Hence-Matthew 3 KJV
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
glorydaz
Well-known member
And besides just fulfilling all righteousness under the law as Priest, there was Prophet and King, as well.
I'm confident you have those on your Scriptural rolodex as well.
And besides just fulfilling all righteousness under the law as Priest, there was Prophet and King, as well.
I'm confident you have those on your Scriptural rolodex as well.
Yes, being King John W of TOL, but a Rolodex? I use...
....like my dad, and everybody over the age of 60.
Rosenritter
New member
I'm seeing an bristling resistance against "love one another" and "love thy enemy." You seem to be unwilling to apply this standard towards yourself. How many times have you been asked for a straight answer? Half a dozen already? on this board? Yet evasion from you each and every time.
And why the evasion? Because you know what the right answer is supposed to be, but your pride (and a mistaken loyalty to a MAD paradigm) won't allow you to say it aloud.
You were on ignore mode until not too long ago. Maybe you belong back again.
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