ECT The Gospel Proper

[glorydaz]

You're taking 1:17 out of context to discredit baptism. Seriously?


Christ said it.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

He said whoever does not believe will be condemned. You have a problem there, don't you?

Paul believed it.
8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized.

Nothing there about what Paul believed....only what was performed.

What is the purpose of baptism? With scriptural support.

Depends on which baptism you're talking about.

 

[Danoh]

Atoms have been around far longer than their discovery. Doesn't mean they didn't exist or that they weren't the most correct model of the building blocks of the universe prior to their discovery.

In the same way, dispensationalism may have only come into existence (emphasis on "may have") recently, but that doesn't exclude it from being correct.

Now that that's out of the way...

Did Jesus have a choice in coming to die on the cross?

"Up and at em, Atom Ant!"

 

[turbosixx]

Do you play a lot of DODGE BALL?

Please show us where Paul COMMANDED believers to be WATER BAPTIZED in order in be a member of the body of Christ.

It's just not there no matter how much you fumble around.

You're missing the point. Scripture is from God NOT Paul.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

God COMMANDED make disciples by water baptizing them in His name.

Paul obeyed God's command making disciples by baptizing them in His name.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These men were already believers. Why in the world would Paul baptize them if it was not to make them disciples??

Paul agrees, that's how we get into Christ.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

 

[turbosixx]

He said whoever does not believe will be condemned. You have a problem there, don't you?

I don't see how. If one does not believe they will not be baptized. Only believers are baptized.

Depends on which baptism you're talking about.

The one that Paul performs, like on these believers.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
It must of had a purpose if Paul performed it on believers. What is/was it?? Scripture?

 

[turbosixx]

Paul said he baptized very few people, and was glad he didn't do more. Why is that? Because water baptism is a work of man....not the one baptism that saves.

Please prove that is Paul's point BASED on the context because that it is not what he means based on context and other supporting scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't see how. If one does not believe they will not be baptized. Only believers are baptized.

Did He say whoever is not baptized will be condemned? No, He didn't. Nor did He say it here.

John 3:8 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

You can't just assume what is meant because of a half a verse.

The one that Paul performs, like on these believers.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
It must of had a purpose if Paul performed it on believers. What is/was it?? Scripture?

Paul performed it on which believers? Where does it say Paul performed anything other than the laying on of hands? He made it quite clear he had only baptized two besides that one family. Are you saying Paul was lying about that, and why would he?

 

[glorydaz]

Please prove that is Paul's point BASED on the context because that it is not what he means based on context and other supporting scripture.

I just go by what is written. I don't have a clue what you're trying to go by.

 

[glorydaz]

God COMMANDED make disciples by water baptizing them in His name.

Making disciples is not the same as putting on Christ.

Paul obeyed God's command making disciples by baptizing them in His name.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Paul agrees, that's how we get into Christ.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Being baptized in the name of Christ is NOT the same as being baptized into Christ. We see that here. One is by water, and one is by ONE SPIRIT. One is in the name of and one is into ONE BODY.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

Things that are not the same are different.

 

[Idolater]

Only believers are baptized.

When Acts says that 'households' are baptized, if there are infants in those 'households,' how can you be sure that they would have been denied baptism until they were older?

fyi, in my estimation, the Catholic Church's sacrament of Confirmation is substantially similar to baptism, for those who believe in 'believers baptism' only, and not infant baptism. Confirmation involves conscious choice, like 'believers baptism.' And, Catholics must be confirmed to be in full communion with the Church.

And I also always thought that---once I thought of it---since circumcision was done in infancy, that baptism in infancy seems permissible at least. And there are lots of Presbyterians and I would guess Lutherans who believe in infant baptism too, not just Catholics.

 

[Idolater]

Making disciples is not the same as putting on Christ.



Being baptized in the name of Christ is NOT the same as being baptized into Christ. We see that here. One is by water, and one is by ONE SPIRIT. One is in the name of and one is into ONE BODY.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

Things that are not the same are different.

Do you think that baptism by water, and baptism by One Spirit, could ever coincide? Or would it be impossible for them to ever coincide? Does something rule out them ever coinciding? Why can't they be the same thing? For their part, the Catholic bishops teach that there's a temporal and an eternal aspect to baptism, and that therefore everything written about baptism in the Scripture, is about either the temporal aspect ('getting wet') or the eternal aspect, and it's usually clear which one, just in reading the immediate passages.

I note that in this passage, he doesn't say that we are all baptized 'by the same water,' but only 'by One Spirit.' This is clearly the eternal aspect of baptism. 'Getting wet' is the temporal aspect.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you think that baptism by water, and baptism by One Spirit, could ever coincide? Or would it be impossible for them to ever coincide? Does something rule out them ever coinciding? Why can't they be the same thing? For their part, the Catholic bishops teach that there's a temporal and an eternal aspect to baptism, and that therefore everything written about baptism in the Scripture, is about either the temporal aspect ('getting wet') or the eternal aspect, and it's usually clear which one, just in reading the immediate passages.

I note that in this passage, he doesn't say that we are all baptized 'by the same water,' but only 'by One Spirit.' This is clearly the eternal aspect of baptism. 'Getting wet' is the temporal aspect.

Anyone can be water baptized....saved and unsaved.
Water baptism is performed by a man.



Only the saved are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ.
No man can do the work of the Spirit.

 

[Idolater]

Anyone can be water baptized....saved and unsaved.

Agreed.

Water baptism is performed by a man.

Or a woman, or a child, true; but it's also true that the eternal aspect of baptism, the baptism by the Spirit, could coincide with the water baptism. Right? I mean---it could. There's nothing preventing it, right? I don't think there is.

Only the saved are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ.
No man can do the work of the Spirit.

I agree with all of that.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're missing the point. Scripture is from God NOT Paul.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

God COMMANDED make disciples by water baptizing them in His name.

Paul obeyed God's command making disciples by baptizing them in His name.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These men were already believers. Why in the world would Paul baptize them if it was not to make them disciples??

Paul agrees, that's how we get into Christ.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

A few times in Paul's epistles we see Paul claim his teachings as his own, and not God's. Here's one of them.

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. - 1 Corinthians 7:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians7:12&version=NKJV

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't see how. If one does not believe they will not be baptized. Only believers are baptized.




The one that Paul performs, like on these believers.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
It must of had a purpose if Paul performed it on believers. What is/was it?? Scripture?

Not all believers are baptised. Are they then not saved because they were not?

 

[Clete]

Stab #2

God is real, and He raises the dead. Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God, and He suffered and died for our sins, and He was raised from the dead, and He ascended to heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of the Father. We can live forever if we believe in Him.

That's it?

No mention of sin or our need to be saved?


I don't recall stab #1, by the way. Did I miss something?

 

[Clete]

Then let's take that hypothetical one step farther. Jesus said, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved
So if baptism isn't necessary because someone who believes dies before being baptized, then belief isn't necessary because someone could die on the way to hearing the gospel and believing.

While there is life there is hope. If someone dies without hearing the gospel and accepting it in their heart, they are without hope. This is as true now as it was at any time in history.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.​

In regards to answering your point from the perspective of those under the previous dispensation, baptisms were part of the Mosaic law and they were required just as was Sabbath observance and circumcision was required. But, the main principle to remember here was taught by Jesus Himself when He picked and ate the wheat on the Sabbath day. The law was made for man, not man for the law. God favors life over symbolic (i.e. non moral) aspects of the law.

I'd probably better clarify that comment about 'non moral' aspects of the law...

There are laws having to do with basic moral conduct. Don't murder, don't steal, etc. and there are laws that are symbolic and religious in nature. The later of which often had to do with keeping Israel separated from other nations; things like circumcision and unclean foods, baptisms, animal sacrifice, etc. These symbolic laws would sometimes conflict with one another. One was to be circumcised on the eighth day of their life, for example. Circumcision was considered a work of the flesh and so what was to be done if the eighth day landed on a Saturday or other Sabbath? Which law do you break in order the follow the other? In that particular case, one would perform the circumcision because circumcision came before the rest of the law and indeed was symbolic of it. The point is, however, that moral laws cannot conflict in this manner. You could never find yourself in a situation where you are forced to rape a woman in order to keep from murdering her or forced to steal from someone in order to prevent yourself from beating them up.

Thus, it is just, to break a symbolic law to prevent someone from starving as David did when he ate the showbread or to save someone from Hell who believes but is prevented from getting baptized in water, just as was the thief on the cross next to Jesus.

I don't understand how this answers my question. Maybe I need to rephrase it. Did those on Pentecost have their sins forgiven under the law of Moses? If not, then by what law?

How can it not answer your question? God's program with Israel was till fully on track. Forgiveness of sins was accomplished the same way in Acts 2 as it was in Mathew 1 or at any time prior to that since Mt. Sinai. The object of their faith was now specifically defined in the person of Jesus Christ but otherwise it was, in a nutshell, "Trust and obey for there's no other way." Believe in Christ, repent and follow the law and God will not only forgive your sins but He will send Jesus back and give Israel her kingdom.

There is so much I could ask you that pertains to this but I think this might be more to the root. What is/was the purpose of water baptism? Scriptural support please.

Baptisms (there were lots of them) are/were a ritual (i.e. symbolic) cleansing. There's no scripture reference needed. That's obvious.

How was Naaman cleansed of his leprosy by dipping in water?

How is this relevant?

I mean, first of all, miracles are a special case to begin with but even if that weren't the case, you are aware that I fully understand and accept the fact that water baptisms (of all sorts) were required in the previous dispensation, yes?

Any argument you make that presents evidence that baptisms were required during Jesus' ministry (or at any time after Moses and before Paul) is going to be met by me with an "Amen!". If my doctrine is correct, I'd fully expect you to be able to establish that much without question. If that were not the case, I'd be in trouble.

Clete

 

[Idolater]

That's it?

No mention of sin or our need to be saved?

I wrote "He suffered and died for our sins."

I don't recall stab #1, by the way. Did I miss something?

Post #2

Spoiler

• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.^*

* - As quoted November 15, 2018.

This one, biblically, is the requirement to be a Christian. I've narrowed it down even further, based on 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV essentially saying that Christ's Resurrection is the 'sine qua non' of the faith, and that therefore, believing in His Resurrection constitutes authentic Christian faith. But I also do so with the presumption, that might be unwarranted, that anybody who can believe that He is risen from the dead, can and will also easily acknowledge Him as 'Lord.'

The Resurrection is not the whole Gospel, but it in some sense 'contains' or 'implies' the whole Gospel, like a seed 'contains' the plant and the eventual fruit of the plant, even though it is just a seed.

And the Gospel is a story. And there's only one authentic version of the story. Your other points seem to comport with my understanding of that story. I also think that the whole Gospel is identical to the whole Word of God.

 

[Right Divider]

You're missing the point. Scripture is from God NOT Paul.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

God COMMANDED make disciples by water baptizing them in His name.

You are missing the point. You are trying to follow instructions that where NOT given to you. You are NOT one of the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

Paul obeyed God's command making disciples by baptizing them in His name.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Wrong "understanding" on your part. Paul did NOT RE-BAPTIZE them with water.

These men were already believers. Why in the world would Paul baptize them if it was not to make them disciples??

Wrong question based on wrong premise.

Paul agrees, that's how we get into Christ.
Gal. 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ

That is NOT talking about WATER. You are one of the many ignorant ones that cannot read "baptize" without FORCING water into the picture.

 

[Clete]

I wrote "He suffered and died for our sins."

Yeah, okay.

So then why bother restating the opening post if you agree with it?

Post #2

Oh yeah, of course.

Glad we moved past the Mormons and Branch Davidian cult members are saved meme,

 

[john w]

"Traditional" Christianity has it backward, since they refuse to rightly divide the word of truth. After being justified by being baptized into Christ, and being new creatures in Christ, with eternal life, having been raised, ascended, and seated, glorified in heavenly places in Christ Jesus(up), "religion" wants to "bury" you(down) you under the element of water , which, as part of the earth, is under a curse, by being dunked until the tadpoles know your social security number.


Water baptism, throughout the OT/NT, was never viewed as "Death/Burial/ & Resurrection."


Baptism - changing the condition, identity, of something because of an action that was performed.; placing or putting something into another substance and performing an action so that it will change the state of the item from its previous condition-it's condition, status, or identity is changed!

Baptism- the idea of being placed into something (the Lord Jesus Christ's death in this dispensation), and an action is performed, so that when we come out we are changed from our previous condition. It is all about our identification; the LORD God takes what we are "in Adam", and places us, identifies us, into the Lord Jesus Christ, and the LORD God's action (crucifying the old man) changes our condition- now we are "in Christ." We are no longer what we were in Adam, because God has done something to us and in us. Our previous condition has been changed because of what God has done:


The bible....a book of details:

" Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Colossians 2:12 KJV

Buried with Him-not like Him.

" Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: {6} Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:3-6 KJV
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Again:Baptism- "to change the nature, identity, condition, status, and to IDENTIFY something with its purpose." For example, Homer, in his book "The Odyssey", desribes the tempering of a sword. When the hot metal was plunged into water, the sword was "baptized" , and thus the change in the condition of the sword was from soft to hard metal. As another example, when a piece of cloth was placed into a dye vat for coloring, there was a change in the condition of the piece of cloth upon emergence from the vat-it had a new color.

Where is the water?

" But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Mt. 20:22-23 KJV

"And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized". Mk 10:38-39 KJV

"And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:" Luke 12:50 KJV
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People assume baptism means "water". I can show you other passages where there is no water. There was no water on the cross. The basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity/status. Did you know that in biblical times, to dye a piece of cloth, you would "baptize" it, "overwhelm" it, "cover" it, in a vat of dye. The cloth would now have a "change in condition", a new "identity". The element was dye here. Look at:

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...." 1 Cor. 10:2 KJV

They were identified with Moses. Also note Exodus 14:16 KJV, Exodus 14:22 KJV="dry ground", Exodus 14:29 KJV,Exodus 15:19 KJV="dry land". No water! The Egyptians were wet, not the Israelites.