The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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LightSon
New member
Oh Jimmy Swaggart!
I remember watching AResenio Hall one night years ago.
Hall said, "Jimmy Swaggart believes that God talks to Him".
"Sure Jimmy! Ha If God talks to you then why didn't God say 'Jimmy, Hey man don't pick up the HO, the cops are following ya".
I laughed. It was funny.
How shameful. I laughed.
When we misbehave, we give the enemies of Christ a reason to blaspheme.
I hope Jimmy has stayed clean after his repentence.
I remember watching AResenio Hall one night years ago.
Hall said, "Jimmy Swaggart believes that God talks to Him".
"Sure Jimmy! Ha If God talks to you then why didn't God say 'Jimmy, Hey man don't pick up the HO, the cops are following ya".
I laughed. It was funny.
How shameful. I laughed.
When we misbehave, we give the enemies of Christ a reason to blaspheme.
I hope Jimmy has stayed clean after his repentence.
>>Neither are atheists, which just goes to show that most people on this planet acknowledge some sort of supernatural existence out there. <<
Since no religion has the majority (as in: greater than 50%) that would mean that ALL religions are wrong, according to your logic.
>>This evidence makes it easy to see that atheists are obviously in denial...<<
Actually, it is the christians who are in denial. They are denying it ofcourse, which just goes to show how badly they are actually in denial.
Since no religion has the majority (as in: greater than 50%) that would mean that ALL religions are wrong, according to your logic.
>>This evidence makes it easy to see that atheists are obviously in denial...<<
Actually, it is the christians who are in denial. They are denying it ofcourse, which just goes to show how badly they are actually in denial.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
I believe that actions that people label as "evil" or "good" exist. History shows the labels tend to be malleable. The winners in conflicts label the loser's practices as "evil" while theirs are "good" or "justifiable".
Examples? Genocide is considered "evil" by most persons I know, yet genocide is practiced even in modern day warefare. Christians generally consider genocide "evil" yet will justify YHWH's order of genocide by the invading Jews against the inhabitants of Palestine in the days of Moses and Joshua. If genocide is absolutely wrong, then it is wrong whether ordered by a deity or done from some other motivation.
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said I did not believe in evil. I said that I do not believe that the term "absolute" can be applied to morals.
You're merely setting up a strawman argument. It's common, but poor, practice.
- Do you believe that heat exists on a sweltering summer day? Probably. Many of us would even agree with you.
Do you believe in "absolute heat"? Probably not.
Does this lack of believe in the absolute nature of heat change your observation that it's uncomfortably hot outside? Not at all.
Would someone's argument that you do not believe that some things are absolutely hot so you have no right to complain about the temperature be a valid one?
Probably not.
Human definitions of evil fall into similar logical patterns.
Since you have no answer for the POE, you are trying to avoid it by removing it from the realm of discussion with philological gymnastics. :chuckle:
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Very good. Perhaps you also noticed that all humans live within some frame of moral reference. The discussion comes when frames do not overlap.
Of course you get to choose your own morals. Otherwise you'd be running around in a prayer shawl, eating kosher food, and redeeming your first-born children by slaughtering animals to offer to YHWH. The fact that Christians have no universal consensus on moral laws because they pick and choose their moral laws ala carte is an example of your point that moral laws are frequently based on fancies and preference.
Sorry, I avoided philosophy and theoretical ethics courses. That's probably why I didn't engage in some of the practices my peers in the ministry did, like theft of church funds, adultery, sodomy, fraud, etc.
I can tell you why I think it's wrong. Because it causes unecessary pain to another. Period.
As an internally directed individual. I don't need to seek outside for a justification for good behavior.
Those who are internally directed do what they do because of their internal moral framework. Other people, those who are externally directed, act a particular way because of outside forces (force of habit, training, human or divine laws, etc.). Externally directed people are easily recognized. They are the ones who make statements like this, "If there wasn't any God, I'd do whatever I felt like doing."
Yes.
The observable fact that it causes unecessary harm to another.
It does in the universe as I perceive it. Read the newspapers...
Answered this one already.
LightSon
New member
So what?
Why do you adopt this as some kind of a standard? That's a little non-arbitrary for an atheist. Or what if I feel it necessary to cause harm to my neighbor because it will advance me economically, or just for the simple fact that it gives me pleasure? If I see a woman I want, I'll just kill her husband and take her. I'll take his truck too.
Why should any of this be wrong? You make a big point about being internally directed. What about Hitler; was he internally directed?
You have smuggled-in a Judeo/Christian value (the golden rule) into your system. Be true to your not-god given abilities and just do what makes you happy. It was good enough for Ted Bundy; it should be good enough for you.
Gerald
Resident Fiend
Fine, knock yourself out. Just don't whine when a given scheme blows up in your face.
After all, that neighbor could very well come after you in the middle of the night with a pickaxe, or that woman's husband might be faster on the draw than you.
99 times out of 100, the reward is not worth the hassle that may result from it.
You might ask yourself: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk? Do ya?
So much for the argument from "if there was no God to answer to, I'd go hog-wild."
LightSon
>>You have smuggled-in a Judeo/Christian value (the golden rule) into your system. <<
Yes. Its a good rule, so why throw it out?
>>Be true to your not-god given abilities and just do what makes you happy. <<
Zakath IS doing what makes him happy. Why do you think that causing pain will make him happy? I don't like to cause pain, because it hurts people and I know what that feels like. Atheists still have empathy, and can feel other peoples emotions. Most of us don't like it when we make other people unhappy.
"if there was no God to answer to, I'd go hog-wild."
Yes. Most christians are restrained because they fear God. If there was no God, they would NOT be able to restrain themselves.
Atheist have much more self-control. They are able to restrain themselves even without the prospect of divine retribution. You see, they have what is called a "conscience". I listen to it because it is a good indicator of the best decision.
I developed my conscience, perhaps you should delevop yours as well.
>>You have smuggled-in a Judeo/Christian value (the golden rule) into your system. <<
Yes. Its a good rule, so why throw it out?
>>Be true to your not-god given abilities and just do what makes you happy. <<
Zakath IS doing what makes him happy. Why do you think that causing pain will make him happy? I don't like to cause pain, because it hurts people and I know what that feels like. Atheists still have empathy, and can feel other peoples emotions. Most of us don't like it when we make other people unhappy.
"if there was no God to answer to, I'd go hog-wild."
Yes. Most christians are restrained because they fear God. If there was no God, they would NOT be able to restrain themselves.
Atheist have much more self-control. They are able to restrain themselves even without the prospect of divine retribution. You see, they have what is called a "conscience". I listen to it because it is a good indicator of the best decision.
I developed my conscience, perhaps you should delevop yours as well.
Gerald
Resident Fiend
[voice of Miracle Max's wife]LIAR!!! LIIIIAAAARRRR!!!![/voice of Miracle Max's wife]
Don't be absurd, shima. It is well known that atheists have neither empathy nor sympathy, that they boil kittens, eat babies, beat up little old ladies, and kick dogs. Small dogs. In addition, they all of them, every one, lie, cheat, steal and have bad breath.
I mean, check out some of my recent posts...
:devil: :chuckle:
Zakath
Resident Atheist
Believe it or not, LightSon, we atheists do not wander around saying, "I wonder how I can be non-arbitrary to confuse the religionists today."
Where I live, you forfeit a life for a life. So sorry, engage in behavior like that and you're dead meat here in old Virginny.
Because it damages the stability of society, as well as the neightbor you popped and his wife.
He did not appear to be, but I couldn't tell you for certain.
In case you never learned this in school, that sentiment is found in all major world cultures regardless of their religious affiliation. It's almost universally human, not Christian and it's certainly not patented or trademarked by one little schizmatic band of Jews...
What's my alternative, listening to your God like Andrea Yates and Deanna LaJune Laney?
LightSon
New member
Shima & Zakath ,
Either my use of irony went over your collective heads or you chose to ignore it in order to bolster your position.
Fair enough I suppose.
Are you arguing that there is an innate difference between the atheist and the Christian as pertains to the conscience? Why can't a Christian have a conscience? I think you are teasing me.
If we can agree that the golden rule mentality flows from a conscience, then were did the conscience come from? The conscience was put there by a creator or was a product of natural selection. If the latter, I just don't see how that is any more binding than one's hair color; it was simply something you were given. If it doesnt' suit you, just change it. This supports the notion that "Zakath IS doing what makes him happy. Why do you think that causing pain will make him happy?", said Shima. I appreciate that Zakath behaves well in society. But my point is that without an external standard, Zakath's choices reflect a personal standard which can only be ratified by society. If one such as Andrea Yates chooses a different behavior then who is to say she is wrong? Society?
All this polemical sparring is going to get your atheistic muscles all pumped up Zak. I'm gonna shut up before I weaken our team.
Either my use of irony went over your collective heads or you chose to ignore it in order to bolster your position.
Fair enough I suppose.
Are you arguing that there is an innate difference between the atheist and the Christian as pertains to the conscience? Why can't a Christian have a conscience? I think you are teasing me.
If we can agree that the golden rule mentality flows from a conscience, then were did the conscience come from? The conscience was put there by a creator or was a product of natural selection. If the latter, I just don't see how that is any more binding than one's hair color; it was simply something you were given. If it doesnt' suit you, just change it. This supports the notion that "Zakath IS doing what makes him happy. Why do you think that causing pain will make him happy?", said Shima. I appreciate that Zakath behaves well in society. But my point is that without an external standard, Zakath's choices reflect a personal standard which can only be ratified by society. If one such as Andrea Yates chooses a different behavior then who is to say she is wrong? Society?
All this polemical sparring is going to get your atheistic muscles all pumped up Zak. I'm gonna shut up before I weaken our team.
Gerald
Resident Fiend
Well, as "society" is bigger and hairier than Andrea Yates I would say yes.
And before you ask, yes, I do believe that "might makes right". That conclusion is drawn from a lifetime of observation.
It has been the way of things thoughout the history of civilization: the big grind down the small, the strong devour the weak.
LightSon
New member
I appreciate your candor Gerald. This is a reflection of the law of the jungle or the law of nature. Society has banded together to form consensus and grab up a big stick. I don't have a problem with that. This is the highest form of morality an atheist can know. Such a coincidence how our society just happens to mimic certain ancient moral codes.