The Death of Manufacturing in the USA

PureX

Well-known member
oh
that is too bad
but
what are they going to do with it
grow the companies?
No, they're going to buy elections and bribe legislators. We know this, because this IS what they are doing with it.

Turns out it's far more profitable to buy rigged legislation than it is "growing companies". With rigged legislation you can eliminate having to pay taxes. You can get the government to give you big cash "incentives", you can gamble on wild get-rich-quick schemes and if you lose, get the government to cover your losses. And if you pay out your bribes right, you can even get the government to pass a law making everyone buy whatever it is you're selling. How sweet is that?!
 

Tinark

Active member
No, they're going to buy elections and bribe legislators. We know this, because this IS what they are doing with it.

Turns out it's far more profitable to buy rigged legislation than it is "growing companies". With rigged legislation you can eliminate having to pay taxes. You can get the government to give you big cash "incentives", you can gamble on wild get-rich-quick schemes and if you lose, get the government to cover your losses. And if you pay out your bribes right, you can even get the government to pass a law making everyone buy whatever it is you're selling. How sweet is that?!

So I guess that's why tax rates are at their highest levels since 1986? If "bribing" is supposed to lower taxes, they seem to be doing it wrong.

This is also an enlightening infographic:

CBOtable2.jpg
 

PureX

Well-known member
So I guess that's why tax rates are at their highest levels since 1986? If "bribing" is supposed to lower taxes, they seem to be doing it wrong.
Tax rates mean nothing when you can loophole your way around them. Even Mitt Romney, a presidential candidate, is paying a significantly lesser percentage of taxes than the average school teacher. And he didn't have to bribe anyone. All he had to be was rich enough to qualify for the loopholes, and be rich enough to hire a clever tax lawyer to show him how to use them.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Labor and management was always a battleground. I worked with unions before and after Reagan and see no change.
Then you are not looking very hard.

I am or will receive retirement benefits from all the companies I work(ed) for.
If its in the form of pensions then good luck.

Manufacturing processes change so rapidly now that unless you have a technical background, it's fairly easy to replace one person with another. Many people at the company I work for have been here 20, 30, 40, 50+ years. Manufacturing is represented by the UAW. I should also note that the company I work for is a foreign owned company.
Its when the guy with 0 years of experience is hired to replace a guy with 20 or 30 or more years of experience that you find problems. Two weeks is not enough time to convey 20 plus years of experience. On the manufacturing floor, this may not be as big a problem because manufacturing process do change. But manufacturing is much more than the people on the floor, it is also about the white collar employees that design the products and manufacturing processes, the people who sale the products, the people who make sure everybody is getting paid. The loss of that experience can wreck a company and is incredibly expensive to replace.
 

Tinark

Active member
Tax rates mean nothing when you can loophole your way around them. Even Mitt Romney, a presidential candidate, is paying a significantly lesser percentage of taxes than the average school teacher. And he didn't have to bribe anyone. All he had to be was rich.

Our integrated tax rate (corporate tax rate plus capital gain tax rate) is higher than Sweden, Norway, Germany, Finland, or just about every other country in the world (only 3 are ahead of our rate).

This is based on 2011 data. Our rates have increased by 8.8% since then.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/capital-gains-rate-country-2011-oecd

Average federal tax rates for the top 1% are well above the rates for all other groups:

111314krugman1-tmagArticle.png


Try again.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame

Tinark

Active member
On so called "bribery" of politicians by the wealthy. It's little more than a faith based position.

Even the 2012 presidential election, which recorded $2.6 billion in campaign spending, underperformed many forecasts. And spending has declined in each of the last two congressional elections. Candidates and other interested parties spent $3.7 billion on this year’s midterms, down from an inflation-adjusted total of $3.8 billion in 2012, which was less than the $4 billion spent in2010, according to the nonprofit Center for Responsive Politics. (These figures do not include a few hundred million dollars in unreported spending on issue ads.) In fact, spending has dropped as the economy has grown and despite a series of contests in which at least one house of Congress was plausibly at stake. “Dire warnings rang out that the decision would herald a new era in politics,” wrote Adam Bonica, a Stanford University political scientist, in a 2013 paper about the effects of Citizens United. “Three years on, there is little evidence that these predictions have come to pass.” Over the past year, Americans spent more on almonds than on selecting their representatives in Congress.

Stephen Ansolabehere, a professor of government at Harvard University, says that the facts are surprising only if we subscribe to an incorrect view. In a 2003 paper, “Why Is There So Little Money in U.S.Politics?” he argued that people and corporations actually view giving money as an ineffective way to influence politicians. Donations, Ansolabehere says, are best understood as a form of consumption, akin to making a charitable contribution. Donors are supporting a cause they believe in, and they take pleasure in doing so. “We basically think that giving money makes you feel good,” Ansolabehere told me.

Most campaign money, after all, comes in smaller chunks from individual donors. People who gave $3 to Barack Obama’s presidential campaign in 2008 could not have reasonably expected that their small contributions would influence the future president. Even those who give larger sums rarely contribute the maximum allowed by law, as might be expected of someone trying to buy influence. Instead, individual contributions have increased over time merely in proportion to personal income. Excepting lower-income families, who rarely give to campaigns, Americans from the upper-middle class on up give approximately the same percentage of their income, about 0.04 percent, according to Ansolabehere’s research, to politicians and political groups. Corporations also spend relatively little, and their spending has not increased substantially in recent years. “If companies thought they could just buy politicians,” said Timothy Groseclose, an economics professor at George Mason University, “we should see much more money being spent there.

One reason is that buying elections is economically inefficient. Most voters, like most consumers, have defined preferences that are difficult for advertisers to shift. Chevron spent roughly $3 million during a recent campaign backing, certain City Council candidates in Richmond, Calif., where it operates a major refinery. Voters instead chose a slate of candidates who want to raise taxes. “Campaign spending has an extremely small impact on election outcomes, regardless of who does the spending,” the University of Chicago economist Steven Levitt concluded in a 1994 paper. He found that spending an extra $100,000 in a House race might be expected to increase a candidate’s vote total by about 0.33 percentage points. Investors appear to agree that companies can’t make money by investing in political campaigns. A 2004 study found that changes in campaign-finance laws had no discernible impact on the share prices of companies that made donations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/magazine/who-wants-to-buy-a-politician.html?_r=0
 

Tinark

Active member
Again, the tax rate is meaningless when there are so many exceptions and loopholes.

Which is why I posted the chart showing average effective rates, meaning the amount that is actually paid after all the loopholes are taken into account.
 

Tinark

Active member
That chart only deals with capitol gains taxes, not overall tax rates. See here.

I'm not denying that overall, US taxes are comparatively low vs other countries.

However, PureX was focusing on people like Romney who earn most of their income from capital gains, which is why I posed that link to give a more complete picture and also a comparison with other countries.
 
Then you are not looking very hard.

If its in the form of pensions then good luck.


Its when the guy with 0 years of experience is hired to replace a guy with 20 or 30 or more years of experience that you find problems. Two weeks is not enough time to convey 20 plus years of experience. On the manufacturing floor, this may not be as big a problem because manufacturing process do change. But manufacturing is much more than the people on the floor, it is also about the white collar employees that design the products and manufacturing processes, the people who sale the products, the people who make sure everybody is getting paid. The loss of that experience can wreck a company and is incredibly expensive to replace.

Or you are mistaken. That seems the more likely.
 

Mocking You

New member
You could not make any of that now without components made in Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and Malaysia. I worked for the only American silicon wafer manufacturer before they sold the business to a German conglomerate. I don't know if it's still true, but IBM made their own silicon wafers at one time for their own use, and my company added our wafers to meet fluctuations in their demand. All other silicon, the basis for everything electronic, comes from foreign companies. Your iPhone, Android phone, calculator, computer, etc, would not exist without silicon. Boeing could not make a plane, GM could not make a car, etc. You can't increase efficiencies on something you don't make.

Integrated circuits are to today's electronic devices are like rivets are to airplanes, or nuts and bolts are to cars--they're tiny building blocks in making the final product. The U.S. has most of the largest IC production facilities in the world. There is this little company called Intel. You might have heard that they make 80% of the CPU's used in PC's and laptops. There is also Texas Instruments, Micron, Qualcomm, etc. So, no, all other silicon chips DO NOT come from foreign countries. There is no "only American silicon wafer manufacturer."

In the 1980's I worked for a company that researched silicon wafers as well as gallium arsenide wafers. Back then the wafers were 4" in diameter (actually 100mm). Nowadays, I think they are up to 300mm (12").

Perhaps Berean will chime in here...

The global economic war is over and we lost.

Hardly. Anyways, your OP was about losing the manufacturing war, now you're saying we've lost the whole shootin' match?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I'm not denying that overall, US taxes are comparatively low vs other countries.

However, PureX was focusing on people like Romney who earn most of their income from capital gains, which is why I posed that link to give a more complete picture and also a comparison with other countries.
Ah. Okay.
 

Mocking You

New member
Don't forget Ronald Regan's part in this play. He is the one who broke the traditional relationships between unions and management. While never a perfect relationship, they generally worked towards the same general goals. When Ronald broke the Air Traffic Controllers union, that pretty well defined a new battle ground: labor versus management.

Yeah, before Reagan there was never any conflict between labor and management. :rolleyes:

Since companies no longer provide retirement benefits and other perks,

No such thing as 401(k) plans, matching employer contributions, profit sharing, employee stock purchase plans, health insurance, vacation time, personal time off, sick days, maternity leave, etc.??


there is little incentive for employees to remain loyal to company. Instead, they follow the money and go where they can get the most for what they do.

That's great.

And this has the side effect of stripping a company of its knowledge base. People used to work for a company long enough to learn in great detail how the manufacturing process worked. They tweaked it and passed that knowledge on to their buddies but not always to management. So when those people leave and take that knowledge with them, the factory becomes hugely inefficient and no longer profitable so it closes.

That's not why factories close. Factory manufacturing is not rocket surgery. All the processes are clearly documented so they can be repeatable. If an employee improves a process it's not their possession, it's property of the company. If a worker leaves to go elsewhere there are no compete clauses as well.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Yeah, before Reagan there was never any conflict between labor and management. :rolleyes:
Please see the entirety of my original comment.



No such thing as 401(k) plans, matching employer contributions, profit sharing, employee stock purchase plans, health insurance, vacation time, personal time off, sick days, maternity leave, etc.??
And what of those wonderful pension plans that many people counted on for retirement? What happened to those. 401's are worthless to those who have lost their pensions because the company failed.

That's not why factories close. Factory manufacturing is not rocket surgery. All the processes are clearly documented so they can be repeatable.
There is a documented process. Then there is what people actually do. I learned a very long time ago in engineering that when working on an existing facility to talk to the people who actually work on the equipment. The documentation is far more often than not, flat out wrong.

If an employee improves a process it's not their possession, it's property of the company. If a worker leaves to go elsewhere there are no compete clauses as well.
And if he was never able to train a replacement the improved process leaves with him.

Many non-compete contracts are not enforceable because they would prevent people from working and that renders the non-compete clause void. If the clause includes compensation for the period during which a person is not allowed to compete, that usually withstands a court challenge.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Entertainment, health care, education, construction and related services (such as architecture), engineering, scientific and technological research, retail, and transportation, just to name a few.

Ok, let's talk about this. I know what you are trying to say, that certain jobs and processes can be automated to allow people to do more important "other things of valuable". And that is a good thing. The problem is that when a task or process is replaced by automation or the job is sent overseas for example it's difficult for the person being replaced to find a job doing "other things of valuable". A guy who spent 25 years as a manual machinist or tool maker can't simply become a scientist, or entertainer, or engineer. This is where job training is important to allow people to learn new job skills.
 
Ok, let's talk about this. I know what you are trying to say, that certain jobs and processes can be automated to allow people to do more important "other things of valuable". And that is a good thing. The problem is that when a task or process is replaced by automation or the job is sent overseas for example it's difficult for the person being replaced to find a job doing "other things of valuable". A guy who spent 25 years as a manual machinist or tool maker can't simply become a scientist, or entertainer, or engineer. This is where job training is important to allow people to learn new job skills.
You don't go from Machinist to Engineer, Entertainer, or Scientist after 25 years as a Machinist without going to a 4 year college or university. And who can afford that while putting sons and daughters through school?
 
And this was my point in my previous post.
My point is if you are not constantly growing in your chosen field, no amount of retraining is going to help. At best, it would prepare you for an entry level position at another company. Most people cannot accept the financial hit this would place on the family. That is why, as an engineer, I am constantly working to broaden my field of competence and expertise. This was my plan when I switched from Structural Engineering to Civil Engineering, and then quickly to Mechanical Engineering. Mechanical Engineers can handle a lot more than just Mechanical Engineering. I've been a Quality Engineer, a Quality Supervisor, a Research and Development Engineer, Plant Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer, Project Manager, Maintenance Engineer, Project Engineer, Chemical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Electrical/Electronics Engineer, Computer Programmer, Mechanical Design Engineer (CAD), etc. My work in Engineering & Construction was my most fulfilling, and it paved the way for my work in Aerospace.
 
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