ECT The core of the argument between Christians and MAD.

[andyc]

Is David Ben Jesse the eternal king?

Yes or no?

No. So the prophecy is talking about someone else who is going to establish a spiritual kingdom. Were the fathers dwelling in the kingdom by faith because of the hope of a better promise yet to be fulfilled?

One of the issues concerning promises of a restored (physical) Israel, is that the Israelites were always going astray in their hearts. And so this arrangement where the Israelites would dwell eternally in the land and would be forever blessed, couldn't be possible as long as human nature kept rebelling.
And so something had to happen that was not explained by Ezekiel, because the first tabernacle was still standing. When you remove the first tabernacle, the physical no longer becomes relevant. No temple, no law, no commandments. The worship becomes spiritual, and if it is spiritual, it requires a spiritual kingdom.

 

[andyc]

No warrant for saying that.

You're trying to merge the physical with the spiritual, when the two are polar opposites.

What would the purpose be for physical people dwelling forever in a physical land, with no law and no commandments and no promises of anything better?

What is there to live for?
I don't see any purpose in any of it. Completely meaningless.

 

[patrick jane]

The practice of stringent literalism, stunts the learning of the depths of the revelations of Christ in Holy Scripture.

Messiah is the subject of the entire bible, and to prayerfully read all the word of God, seeking truth about Him, is the greatest search a mortal can make. Romans 11:36

you may have just pinpointed a key factor in your failure to grasp the depth of the dispensation Of Christ To Paul - atrol:

View attachment 19284

 

[IMJerusha]

Can you show anywhere in the OT where people are promised a heavenly reward?

It is the new testament that reveals the spiritual prince, king, kingdom.

I was reading backward from the last post in this thread to where I fell off due to illness and came upon your post here, Andy. An afterlife with God (heavenly reward) was definitely looked forward to as recorded in 2 Samuel 12 regarding David's behavior following the death of his son. The whole point of the Law was to bring people into a right relationship with God which is our heavenly reward. Paul stated that all of what is called the Old Testament is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Righteousness is the state of moral perfection required by God to enter heaven. Back in the days of the Old Covenant, God's Grace and Mercy played the greater part in the salvation of any of His people due to disobedience and stiff-necked attitude, but anyway, to state that there is no promise of heavenly reward mentioned in the OT is really, radically wrong.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I don't see any purpose in any of it. Completely meaningless.

Except that it's God's purpose to fill the earth, the city, and the heavens with his people.

The OT temple had 3 basic sections: One for the people, the priests, and then beyond the veil. The earth is for the people, the city for the kings and priests, and beyond the veil are those seated in Christ (his Body). One kingdom of God, one building filling the universe.

Whether you agree with him or not is up to you.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is warranted because Jacob and David are named, who would inherit the spiritual promises, just as the nation of Israel had inherited the land promises.

You made this up.
Why?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You're trying to merge the physical with the spiritual, when the two are polar opposites.

So, the risen LORD clothed in flesh and bone was not spiritual?


1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[andyc]

I was reading backward from the last post in this thread to where I fell off due to illness and came upon your post here, Andy. An afterlife with God (heavenly reward) was definitely looked forward to as recorded in 2 Samuel 12 regarding David's behavior following the death of his son. The whole point of the Law was to bring people into a right relationship with God which is our heavenly reward. Paul stated that all of what is called the Old Testament is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." Righteousness is the state of moral perfection required by God to enter heaven. Back in the days of the Old Covenant, God's Grace and Mercy played the greater part in the salvation of any of His people due to disobedience and stiff-necked attitude, but anyway, to state that there is no promise of heavenly reward mentioned in the OT is really, radically wrong.

Yes I see what you're saying. I can identify areas in the OT where the saints were wondering about it, but there is no specific promise mentioned in the OT. Unless you can show it?

When Moses said, "show me your glory". That is a heavenly desire. To know God's character through the law, is to desire to be with God literally. When Adam hid his nakedness, it is the desire to be clothed with a heavenly habitation. David desiring to dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
The problem is that God was relating to man according to the flesh from Adam to Christ, and the physical man cannot enter heaven. And so how can God promise a spiritual reward to a natural man?

It is left to the natural man to meditate, think, wonder, conclude that God is going to do something that no one would believe (including the MADists). He was going to do a spiritual work on the human heart that would destroy works once and for all. It was understood as a day of rest that David spoke of under divine inspiration. Yes I see heaven in the OT but its veiled because of the flesh, and the veil is taken away in Christ, the second Adam. The Spiritual Adam.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

By the way, this is the promise referred to in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Some of those listed in the hall of faith looked for a city, some were promised the land. But they all will be perfected together.

 

[andyc]

So, the risen LORD clothed in flesh and bone was not spiritual?


1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Raised a spiritual body?

While the flesh and spirit dwell together there is a conflict. The natures war against each other. One most go, which is the flesh.

 

[patrick jane]

By the way, this is the promise referred to in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Some of those listed in the hall of faith looked for a city, some were promised the land. But they all will be perfected together.

yes. Hebrews is written to Hebrew Christians, perhaps 2nd generation, to explain Biblical truths, and to affirm to them that Jesus Is The Messiah. i can see Paul's writing in Hebrews, and other authors are suggested

 

[andyc]

By the way, this is the promise referred to in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Some of those listed in the hall of faith looked for a city, some were promised the land. But they all will be perfected together.

The city who's maker is God.
If the temple of God is within, God and man become one.
I love the description of Christ being in the bosom of the Father. This is an intimacy that is absolutely spiritual without a doubt. And it is amazing that Christ came to give people the same intimacy.

Talking about people fumbling around on the earth, is to completely miss it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Talking about people fumbling around on the earth, is to completely miss it.

Vs.

Holy Bible

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[andyc]

Vs.

Holy Bible

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The heavenly city that Abraham looked for.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 2For our God is a consuming fire.

If the world that was made is being removed, only the eternal remains. And we are receiving an eternal kingdom.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The heavenly city that Abraham looked for.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 2For our God is a consuming fire.

If the world that was made is being removed, only the eternal remains. And we are receiving an eternal kingdom.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[andyc]

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

New from man's perspective. A spiritual heaven and earth (environment).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

New from man's perspective.

Made up.

 

[IMJerusha]

Not so. Also, Paul never decried any of Yeshua's teaching while He was on earth, didn't identify it as being solely for the House of Israel, and, in fact, taught Timothy to look to the Scripture for training in righteousness. He wasn't talking about the New Testament, "the Bible Jesus read."

I don't know what you responded to, but it wasn't my post.

You distort things grossly and don't tell the truth. Many things DID change at the Cross, and Jesus Christ revealed what those changes were to the Apostle Paul. It was a MYSTERY not known to men of other ages or to the twelve. It became the foundation for the Gospel of the Grace of God, and Paul taught the twelve because it was also a MYSTERY to them. The Church which is the Body of Christ is part of that glorious MYSTERY. In short, Jesus Christ willingly went to the Cross for many BIG reasons.

Really? I pressed the quote button. Are you stating that those are not your words? Your avatar accompanied them. You are implying a severe crack of TOL's software. I'd suggest you file a report so Knight can conduct an investigation.

It doesn't matter what you quoted because you didn't respond to the subject matter in my post. In other words, your response didn't resemble an agreement or disagreement with what I specifically posted. You flew off in another direction.

No, I addressed your post quite succinctly, IMO. Paul never decried Yeshua's teachings on earth or even remotely implied (nor would he have) that the Gospel message he was preaching was different from that which Yeshua preached. You stated that many things changed at the Cross. I think you need to back that bus up to the moment of God's decision to create a new everlasting Covenant in His Son.

 

[andyc]

Heaven can be talking about the spiritual kingdom, or the sky/universe. Context dictates which.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

This is not the spiritual realm.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This is not the spiritual realm.

Earth is a "spiritual realm".
There are principalities and powers fighting each other daily, unseen.