the church

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
when chrysostom was exiled from constantinople, he appealed to rome
How are we suppose to believe the Roman religion invented by the reprobates of Rome is the inerrant church. They can't even translate verses correctly. For instance; they use these words, "Hail Mary full of grace." Those aren't even the correctly translated words. Yet this institution is suppose to be infallible.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Christians know where they will spend eternity ( heaven ) R.C'S. have no clue.
Well, they forgot. The RCC has historically called all protestants heretics and murdered them. And to date, they've not made any recantations or official apologies for this. I suggest doing some research on the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, and try to find a point in history where the RCC has expressed ANY repentance for this heinous and evil act.
 

DavidK

New member
what do you call your father?

Mostly, "Dad". :D

I expected our conversation might get hung up on that point, but the intent of my question was not dealing with particular titles, but rather titles in general. I'm after the spirit of what our Lord was saying, not specific words.

The fact that you truncated my question at "father" rather than quoting it in full makes me think you are highlighting "father" to avoid the spirit of the statement, though it actually serves to highlight it. Jesus wasn't talking at all about natural familial relationship. He was addressing prominence (greatness) in His Church.

So what do you make of the fact that our Lord said to call no one in the church by titles that place them above the Church, and not to exercise authority or dominion over the flock as Gentile leaders do over their subjects?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Mostly, "Dad". :D

I expected our conversation might get hung up on that point,

well good for you -
I want to talk about abortion, divorce, and same sex marriage -
you want to talk about who we call father -
do you know what is important?
if you want to talk about who we call father, I am not interested in that
 

DavidK

New member
you don't need scripture for that if you have common sense

I'm going to take that to mean that you know of no scriptures that directly state nor clearly imply that the keys were intended to be passed down from one man to one man over Church history.

Given that scripture is the ultimate arbiter of the faith, that places the Papal succession clearly in the realm of issues of personal conscience, and we can agree to disagree on whether the there is a single mortal man in each generation responsible for leading the Church of Jesus Christ.
 

DavidK

New member
well good for you -
I want to talk about abortion, divorce, and same sex marriage -
you want to talk about who we call father -
do you know what is important?
if you want to talk about who we call father, I am not interested in that

It looks like I'm failing to be clear. My apologies.

I in no way want to talk about who we call father. You are the one who highlighted that particular word.

In a thread about the Roman Catholic Church, I want to talk about what scripture says about how the Church should be governed. It appears to me that in Matthew 20 and 23 we have record of our Lord Jesus Christ instructing that there should not be a pyramid hierarchical structure in His Church. I get this from the fact that He told us not to bestow titles of authority on each other and not to exercise dominion or authority over each other like the leaders of the nations of the world.

You don't seem to see that in those passages, so I keep asking what you for your interpretation of those words of our Lord.

As to abortion, divorce, and same-sex marriage, we have plenty of threads for those here at ToL. You originally brought them up not to discuss them, but to make a point that there are contentious issues that divide those who call themselves believers. I answered that point to the best of my current knowledge. I don't see a scriptural basis for one mortal man having the final say on matters of doctrine within the Church. Nor do I see a need.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I don't see a scriptural basis for one mortal man having the final say on matters of doctrine within the Church. Nor do I see a need.

we do -
peter is the rock Jesus built His church on -
perer got the keys and the power to bind and loose -
that is our interpretation of what is in your bible -
you are welcome to your interpretation
 

DavidK

New member
where did that come from?

The original apostles and the early Church fathers.

Just to be clear, I believe there is ongoing revelation from the Father through the Holy Spirit speaking and moving in the contemporary Church of Jesus Christ, but all revelation is tested against the Scripture and anything that cannot be found in scripture, either explicitly or implicitly, falls into the area of issues of conscience that are left up to individual believers to decide.

In the group of elders I described seeing in my study, I expect that each group of elders in each church would discuss issues of conscience among themselves, listen to the Spirit, and instruct the flock based on the consensus that emerged.
 

DavidK

New member
we do -
peter is the rock Jesus built His church on -
perer got the keys and the power to bind and loose -
that is our interpretation of what is in your bible -
you are welcome to your interpretation

So how does that fit with the words of our Lord in Matthew 20 and 23 that Church leaders should not exercise dominion or authority over each other and should not be given titles of authority? What am I missing in those passages?
 

DavidK

New member
we do -
peter is the rock Jesus built His church on -
perer got the keys and the power to bind and loose -
that is our interpretation of what is in your bible -
you are welcome to your interpretation

The Papacy is a very big structure to perch on one (albeit very significant) metaphorical statement. Are there other supporting scripture for Peter's supremacy over the Church and a succession flowing from him?
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
So how does that fit with the words of our Lord in Matthew 20 and 23 that Church leaders should not exercise dominion or authority over each other and should not be given titles of authority? What am I missing in those passages?

would you mind giving me the passages so I don't have to hunt for them
 
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