The catastrophic tsunami in Asia was....

[Edgar Caiña]

Originally posted by billwald

The Intelligent Designer intelligently designed a world that requires random earth quakes.

Let's put it this way: "The Intelligent, Benevolent, Holy, Loving, Designer intelligently, benevolently, lovingly designed a world that requires random earth quakes that would kill hundred thousands of people... and he certainly knew that is going to happen."

 

[JRHoffman]

Originally posted by Edgar Caiña

Let's put it this way: "The Intelligent, Benevolent, Holy, Loving, Designer intelligently, benevolently, lovingly designed a world that requires random earth quakes that would kill hundred thousands of people... and he certainly knew that is going to happen."

Or it could be put this way: The Intelligent, Benevolent, Holy, Loving, Designer intelligently, benevolently, lovingly designed a world that did not require random earth quakes for there was no death in the original design. But man following after the lure of Satan rejected the perfect holy designer which resulted in the imperfect unholy world which now brings death. God certainly knew it was going to happen but He certainly did not create it that way.

 

[julie21]

JRHoffman: QUOTE 2) the warning was sent to many of the countries that the flood was coming but it was ignored.
In both cases the an early warning system in place. The first in nature and the second an invention of man. The animals listened, man did not, which has been the case since the creation of man.


I believe that if you research this event properly, you will find that the countries within the Asean region hit by the Tsunami, did not have a prior warning system, thereby did not really have the option to either listen or ignore. I think you will find that there were many animals also killed, but animals have a natural in-built 'sixth sense' as it were for earthly disturbances, being known to pick up on danger well before humans can and so hightail it out of the place.

Maybe you should check the actual facts first, then make your argument based on them...much more convincing if you do that!!!

 

[JRHoffman]

Originally posted by julie21

JRHoffman: QUOTE 2) the warning was sent to many of the countries that the flood was coming but it was ignored.
In both cases the an early warning system in place. The first in nature and the second an invention of man. The animals listened, man did not, which has been the case since the creation of man.


I believe that if you research this event properly, you will find that the countries within the Asean region hit by the Tsunami, did not have a prior warning system, thereby did not really have the option to either listen or ignore. I think you will find that there were many animals also killed, but animals have a natural in-built 'sixth sense' as it were for earthly disturbances, being known to pick up on danger well before humans can and so hightail it out of the place.

Maybe you should check the actual facts first, then make your argument based on them...much more convincing if you do that!!!

Fact 1: Although some areas were remote and had no early warning system many were warned by the two tsunami montitoring sites that it was coming and they chose to ignore the warning. The authorities in those countries admitted such.

Fact 2. Very few animals were found, in one part of India where there is a large population of elephants, not a single elephant died.

The facts were checked before the post.

 

[aikido7]

There is one factor that I am surprised no one here brought up:

Bill and Hillary CLINTON

 

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by aikido7

There is one factor that I am surprised no one here brought up:

Bill and Hillary CLINTON

What do those pathological liars have to do with the topic we are discussing?

Pay attention, commie, you might actually learn something.

 

[Granite]

"Granite1010 may well be one of them."

Hey JR! Welcome to TOL and Happy New Year.

"He cries that no one has the answers..."

No, I didn't. I said the Christian answers didn't work. My answer's fairly pragmatic: stuff happens. Maybe a rookie like you should actually get to know someone before making silly blanket comments and snap judgments. Savvy?

"...but on that day when he kneels in the presence of God he will understand that he was given the answers."

This kind of toothless, paper tiger threat is real old and very, very boring. Is this the best you people can do? When all else fails and you can't hold an argument, you revert to "Jesus Is Gonna Burn You in Hell When You Die!" Very effective...

Either God knew this was going to happen, he allowed it to happen, or he was caught by surprise. With this in mind, why would the victims of this tragedy WANT to pray to a deity who is either asleep at the wheel, deliberately vicious, or falling down on the job?

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Why thank you.

You continue...When I crush an opponent I do not abandon my winning argument.

---

Z Man cannot type one paragraph without contradicting himself!

Wanna see?

Get ready now, this is gonna be fun!

Pay close attention now folks...

Z Man's Statement #1.....
Z Man's Statement #2.... Keep in mind this in the same paragraph as statement #1! (amazing but true)So what have we learned once again about Z Man?

A. He proves that he inherently believes in freewill and cannot even disguise it when he talks.

B. His theology is so perverted that he cannot even type a single paragraph with contradicting himself.

What's so hard about understanding that God can be in complete control, and yet, He is not directly 'thinking' for us?

I assume that your nickpickiness over minor issues of what you believe to be contridictions in my posts is done on purpose so that you can avoid answering to the more important issues that are brought up. You intentionally deviate from the main topic and get all side tracked and worked up over petty issues. You're a horrible debater. You don't take anything serious. You only avoid my posts because you're only protecting your beliefs. I challenge them, you change the subject. It's becoming routine for you...

 

[1Way]

Z Man,
Routine? Routine you say... The more important issues are matters of foundational truth! Who cares if a particular topic is generally considered more important, that is true for those of us who tend to engage in non-contradictory discussions. If a person does not remain consistent with their own personal beliefs, then that is a more important issue.

Again, even after Knight exposed this problem, you continue to promote the contradiction as though it's biblical truth. God having "complete control" does not allow man to have "some control".

If man has some control, then God does not have complete control.

Your responses that promote self contradiction (I just responded to another one in another thread), is like a public broadcast announcement that you are not personally interested in an honest, reasonable, logical discussion, you'd resort of self contradiction if it means protecting your personal point of view.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by 1Way

Z Man,
Routine? Routine you say... The more important issues are matters of foundational truth! Who cares if a particular topic is generally considered more important, that is true for those of us who tend to engage in non-contradictory discussions. If a person does not remain consistent with their own personal beliefs, then that is a more important issue.

Again, even after Knight exposed this problem, you continue to promote the contradiction as though it's biblical truth. God having "complete control" does not allow man to have "some control".

If man has some control, then God does not have complete control.

Your responses that promote self contradiction (I just responded to another one in another thread), is like a public broadcast announcement that you are not personally interested in an honest, reasonable, logical discussion, you'd resort of self contradiction if it means protecting your personal point of view.

:up: I couldn't have responded more clearly myself.

 

[1Way]

Naysayers are easy to dismantle, just ask them, so then, what is true and right?

Naysayers are easy to dismantle, just ask them, so then, what is true and right?

Granite, the number of false attacks you make is not worth the effort to correct, so I'll just give a single overall response.

The truth matters more than everything you said. Everything you said may sound good to you, but if your wrong, eternity in hell is not with sinning against the truth. You need to first discover what is true and what is false, and then secondly you need to love and appreciate the truth that can set you free if you respond appropriately.

Would you rather wish that God left your eternal fate in an ambiguous way? Would you rather He not warn you about everlasting damnation if you don't trust your life to God who loves you and wants to save you??? Please explain the truth.

Were you one of those kids who constantly rebels against higher authorities like if your parents says don't stick that fork into the wall outlet, instead you rebel against the higher authority because somehow you think you know better and just do it anyway?

Everyone understands even the invisible attributes of God so they are without excuse. Man can never rightly plead ignorance, which is the main ingredient of your position. You don't know that the God of the bible is the right way or not, so you blindly suggest it's wrong to advise someone to trust and love God who is purely looking out after your best interested for all eternity. Or am I somehow wrong?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man



What's so hard about understanding that God can be in complete control, and yet, He is not directly 'thinking' for us?

Z Man.... turn on the ol' brain for a second..... please!!!

IF.... God does not directly do all of our thinking for us through His control or ordination then....

A. The future is at least partially open and you are promoting open theism.
And....
B. God does NOT control EVERYTHING. (our thoughts being the obvious exclusion)

But IF.... God is in exhaustive COMPLETE control and ordains EVERYTHING (as you have stated multiple times in the past) then....

A. The future is completely closed.
And....
B. We have no ability to do any of our own thinking as you have just stated.

You can't have it both ways Z Man. This is NOT a "minor" point but a MONUMENTAL point.

So please verify the following TWO statements with a TRUE or FALSE answer.

TRUE or FALSE? There is NOTHING (not a single detail not even a single thought of any man in history) that God does not control.

TRUE or FALSE? Humans have the ability to do some things (like have thoughts) that God does not directly control.

 

[missedmarks]

What Z-Man is saying dude is that God does have it both ways, that he is in complete control and that we have free will. This has been the point of view of alot of Christians for a long time. They just chalk it up to "Mystery" and the fact that things of God are beyond our human logic.

So if the Bible says A is true, and then goes on to say B is true, and if we think A and B contradict...the problem isn't with A or B or the Bible, the problem is in our inability to reconcile the two.

Not saying it's right, just trying to explain the thought process. Of course when it comes down to it, Open Theism is a very logical attempt to reconcile alot of those differences, and I'll admit that lately I've been somewhat intrigued by it.

As for the earthquake...Earthquakes happen, floods happen, people die. It seems really horrific at the moment that 100,000 people died, but that heart attacks, old age, car wrecks and a number of other tragedies are gonna kill millions this year, get over it. Death is a part of life, the end part. God let you know you were going to die, God even hinted that some of us are going to die horrifically in terrible accidents. But whenever the numbers crunch up we decide somehow something has gone terribly wrong. Plates slip, Tsunamis wipe out coastlines, Pork Rinds clog areteries...just the way things are. You want perfect give it a shot in the afterlife....

I marked other....

 

[1Way]

Ya, that all sounds good and well :think:, but Knight, lets take a step back
and consider the bigger picture... Doesn't logic mandate,,, :noid: now come
on now, let go of your presuppositions and really carefully contemplate
what I'm about to say. oly:

• Doesn't logic mandate or at least imply that
  controlling/decreeing "everything"
  
  actually means
  
  controlling/decreeing just "some" things?

Ah ah ahhhhhhh!!!, don't touch that mouse just yet, hold up now, no
hasty responses! It's deep, that's right, take it easy, so what if this
challenges your personal viewpoint, you owe it to everyone to give
this issue some serious consideration and time and effort.

Now please re-read the issue ten times _s_l_o_w_l_y_ so that you have
a better chance to really soak it up, and then maybe sometime in a week
or so, maybe then you'll have a solid response. :think:

Also, and perhaps more to the point, isn't it reasonable to assume that
if you can avoid a refuting issue by addressing it in several different ways,
and mixing it up with associated but tangent issues, or by using the same
concepts but violating the context, that you can sound educated and
responsive without making a cogent counterpoint response? :noway:

Don't we need to allow our closed view friends "something" to cling to? :liberals:

 

[Crow]

Originally posted by aikido7

There is one factor that I am surprised no one here brought up:

Bill and Hillary CLINTON

Dang it, BillyBob, you're right again.

Some idiot did bring them up.

I'll send your $10.00 by PayPal.

I outta know better than to bet against BillyBob. :bang:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by missedmarks

What Z-Man is saying dude is that God does have it both ways, that he is in complete control and that we have free will.

Uh... that isn't what Z Man says.

Z Man rejects any notion of freewill whatsoever.

Yet what Z Man has clearly illustrated on this very thread is that he cannot hide his inherent belief that freewill exists. In other words..... when you ask him, Z Man staunchly opposes any notion of freewill. Yet when Z Man urges me to to submit my will to God's will his inescapable belief that freewill is a reality comes oozing out of him for all the world to see.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by missedmarks
So if the Bible says A is true, and then goes on to say B is true, and if we think A and B contradict...the problem isn't with A or B or the Bible, the problem is in our inability to reconcile the two.

Uh... this debate (between I and Z Man) has nothing to do with what the Bible says. The Bible never once says that God ordains ALL things but that God ordains SOME things and does those "things" by bringing certain events to pass.

The discussion here is focused not on the word of God but the word of Z Man.

It is Z Man who has made the claim that God controls ALL THINGS without exception yet at the same times begs me to submit my will to God's will and tells me that I can do this because God doesn't control my thoughts. :freak:

Therefore... lets be true to the debate and understand where the irrationality lives, it lives with Z Man and not with the word of God.

 

[Granite]

Re: Naysayers are easy to dismantle, just ask them, so then, what is true and right?

Re: Naysayers are easy to dismantle, just ask them, so then, what is true and right?

Originally posted by 1Way

Granite, the number of false attacks you make is not worth the effort to correct, so I'll just give a single overall response.

The truth matters more than everything you said. Everything you said may sound good to you, but if your wrong, eternity in hell is not with sinning against the truth. You need to first discover what is true and what is false, and then secondly you need to love and appreciate the truth that can set you free if you respond appropriately.

Would you rather wish that God left your eternal fate in an ambiguous way? Would you rather He not warn you about everlasting damnation if you don't trust your life to God who loves you and wants to save you??? Please explain the truth.

Were you one of those kids who constantly rebels against higher authorities like if your parents says don't stick that fork into the wall outlet, instead you rebel against the higher authority because somehow you think you know better and just do it anyway?

Everyone understands even the invisible attributes of God so they are without excuse. Man can never rightly plead ignorance, which is the main ingredient of your position. You don't know that the God of the bible is the right way or not, so you blindly suggest it's wrong to advise someone to trust and love God who is purely looking out after your best interested for all eternity. Or am I somehow wrong?

1Way, this kind of laziness either tells me you're not paying attention or your head's stuck too deep in the sand to respond at all. I'm not sure what kind of "false attacks" I've made here. If you Christians can't even respond on a bulletin board, I don't think your faith or the Holy Spirit--supposedly working through you, lest we forget--is terribly formidable or convincing.

As I told Knight: this approach would have worked just wonders on Mars Hill. "An altar to the UNKNOWN GOD? You know, you heathens have made so many mistakes I'm not even going to try to correct them. Adios!" Very effective.

You don't have an answer, nor can you answer. So you make smug, self-satisfied replies. You don't debate. You don't hold a discussion. I'm not interested in a sermon from you or anybody else; I'm interested in a Christian actually holding a discussion. Thus far, you people haven't. As Gary North's fond of reminding his critics: you can't beat something with nothing.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Naysayers are easy to dismantle, just ask them, so then, what is true and rig

Re: Re: Naysayers are easy to dismantle, just ask them, so then, what is true and rig

Originally posted by granite1010

As I told Knight: this approach would have worked just wonders on Mars Hill. "An altar to the UNKNOWN GOD? You know, you heathens have made so many mistakes I'm not even going to try to correct them. Adios!" Very effective.

Laugh out loud! :chuckle:

Granite.... if this were Mars Hill Paul would still be talking!!!

Do you realize how many times this stuff has been covered on TOL?

Let me speak for 1Way - 1Way please correct me if I am wrong about this response....

1Way isn't saying he doesn't want to respond to you necessarily but that he already knows these points have been made hundreds of times here on TOL and retards like you aren't here to listen to the answers but are here to mock God and cause trouble. (which is fine of course because we need idiots like you for the entertainment value here at TOL).

Face it granite... you are a cartoon. A silly footnote in an otherwise interesting debate.

 

[Granite]

"Granite.... if this were Mars Hill Paul would still be talking!!!"

I guess Enyart clones don't have a keen sense of humor...not my problem. Like the avatar, by the way, so there's hope for you yet.

You wanna worship a God who's roasting 100,000 plus Asian schmucks for a post Christmas barbecue, knock yourself out.