Theology Club: The Beginning of the Present Dispensation Was at Acts 13

[Danoh]

you only have one dispensation.
i noticed you didn't show us more than one of your dispensations
and there differences



actually he quotes Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. no grace mentioned,no law either

Paul says "Now to him" that is not about Abraham
that would be Christians

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

I'd have to respectfully differ with you on this; God was able to account Abraham's faith for righteousness based on God's grace - God's faith His Son's coming sacrifice would be a propitiation (fully satisfying sacrifice) for the remission of sins that are past - Romans 3:

25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

In those two passages are both all those who have ever, but also, all those who will ever believe God's particular (Dispensational) "Word of faith" to them.

The one is the issue of instances of grace in time past (Dispensational), the other is "but now" "at this time" a "dispensation of grace."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When the KJB says that on the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God in Acts 13, I believe it. Apparently you don't. And therein lies your problem.

I challenge you to quote me saying that.

This whole discussion started with STP where he said the following:

1. Some Gentiles believed in the God of Abraham, and were found in the synagogue. They would have been in the promise.

2. Some Gentiles were pagans and denied the God of Abraham. They were outside of the promise.

Paul was sent first to Jews and the first type of Gentile. Later, Paul's ministry expanded and he was sent to all, including the pagan Gentiles.

According to this we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that the following Gentiles were all found in the synagogues of the Jews and believed in the God of Abraham:

"And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:44-48).​

If STP is right then we must believe that practically the whole city of Antioch were believers of the God of Abraham and were found in the synagogues of the Jews.

That idea is ridiculous and you have been defending STP's idea. Where is your evidence that practically the whole city of Antioch were believers in the God of Abraham and were found in the synagogues of the Jews?

Why did you leave that fact out? Why did you leave the "and whoseover among you feareth God" out? Some of us know they were Gentiles (more specifically called Greeks and the Gentiles of whom Paul was first sent). Paul was sent to Jews and Greeks all throughout his Acts ministry. Why, you haven't a clue.

I was arguing that what Paul said at Acts 13:16 had nothing to do with him preaching the "gospel of grace." Instead he was preaching the 'gospel of the circumcision." After all, he was speaking in a synagogue (Acts 13:14).

Which gospel do you think he was preaching then?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul says "Now to him" that is not about Abraham that would be Christians

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

The Greek word de is translated "now" at Romans 4:4 and if Paul wanted to use a word meaning "now, at this very moment" he would have used the Greek word nyni. But he didn't.

Instead he used the Greek word de and that word is a conjunction which ties what is said in verse 4 to what is said previously.

 

[way 2 go]

I'd have to respectfully differ with you on this; God was able to account Abraham's faith for righteousness based on God's grace

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness
God never mentioned grace
there was however animal sacrifice

Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

- God's faith His Son's coming sacrifice would be a propitiation (fully satisfying sacrifice) for the remission of sins that are past - Romans 3:

now ,
now it is by faith by his grace

instances of grace are in the old testament but not mentioned as a system
:e4e:

 

[Danoh]

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness
God never mentioned grace
there was however animal sacrifice

Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.





now ,
now it is by faith by his grace

instances of grace are in the old testament but not mentioned as a system
:e4e:

Consider... what did Abraham do to merit that righteousness which was accounted unto him?

Was it merited or unmerited?

As I do not care for baiting others - that is the mark of deceit - my answer to my question here is that said righteousness was "of faith" - it was unmerited.

Thanks for your input, bro.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul says "Now to him" that is not about Abraham that would be Christians

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

The Greek word de is translated "now" at Romans 4:4 and if Paul wanted to use a word meaning "now, at this very moment" he would have used the Greek word nyni. But he didn't.

Instead he used the Greek word de and that word is a conjunction which ties what is said in verse 4 to what is said previously.

So the words in "bold" are referring to what Paul said about Abraham and his salvation:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now (de) to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​

 

[heir]

I challenge you to quote me saying that.

This whole discussion started with STP where he said the following:



According to this we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that the following Gentiles were all found in the synagogues of the Jews and believed in the God of Abraham:

"And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:44-48).​

If STP is right then we must believe that practically the whole city of Antioch were believers of the God of Abraham and were found in the synagogues of the Jews.

That idea is ridiculous and you have been defending STP's idea. Where is your evidence that practically the whole city of Antioch were believers in the God of Abraham and were found in the synagogues of the Jews?

The Gentiles that would return to the synagogue the next sabbath day (Acts 13:42 KJV) were the "almost the whole city". They were in the promise and would have been fearing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and seeking a blessing through Israel (Acts 13:26 KJV, Genesis 12:3 KJV) and wisdom as "the Greeks seek after wisdom"(1 Corinthians 1:22 KJV). And when it says "the multitudes" (Acts 13:45 KJV), we know that must have been a lot of Gentiles! I'm not sure what your problem is with the text nor what you think you are proving. :rain:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The Gentiles that would return to the synagogue the next sabbath day (Acts 13:42 KJV) were the "almost the whole city". They were in the promise and would have been fearing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and seeking a blessing through Israel (Acts 13:26 KJV, Genesis 12:3 KJV) and wisdom as "the Greeks seek after wisdom"(1 Corinthians 1:22 KJV). And when it says "the multitudes" (Acts 13:45 KJV), we know that must have been a lot of Gentiles! I'm not sure what your problem is with the text nor what you think you are proving. :rain:

:up:

It's very simple.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Gentiles that would return to the synagogue the next sabbath day (Acts 13:42 KJV) were the "almost the whole city". They were in the promise and would have been fearing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and seeking a blessing through Israel (Acts 13:26 KJV, Genesis 12:3 KJV) and wisdom as "the Greeks seek after wisdom"(1 Corinthians 1:22 KJV). And when it says "the multitudes" (Acts 13:45 KJV), we know that must have been a lot of Gentiles! I'm not sure what your problem is with the text nor what you think you are proving. :rain:

Nothing in the text even hints that almost the whole city believed in the God of Abraham and worshipped in the synagogue of the Jews.

According to your ideas the Gentiles to whom Paul preached and ended up believing did not include any pagan Gentiles who did not worship the God of Abraham--even though almost the whole city was there.

Where is your proof?

Why did you leave that fact out? Why did you leave the "and whoseover among you feareth God" out? Some of us know they were Gentiles (more specifically called Greeks and the Gentiles of whom Paul was first sent). Paul was sent to Jews and Greeks all throughout his Acts ministry. Why, you haven't a clue.

I was arguing that what Paul said at Acts 13:16 had nothing to do with him preaching the "gospel of grace." Instead he was preaching the 'gospel of the circumcision." After all, he was speaking in a synagogue (Acts 13:14).

Which gospel do you think he was preaching then?

 

[DAN P]

A dispensation is a "stewardship" and the different dispensations are not speaking of how anyone is saved. For instance,in an earlier dispensation Abraham was saved by grace;

for instance, Peter was saved before the present dispensation began, but he was saved on the principle of "grace":

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Hi and who is the "WE " in Acts 15:11 ??

And who is the " just as they are " ??

What it means is the Messianic assembly which includes the 12 apostles is the " WE " or the Kingdom believers !!

The " Just as they are " are the Grace believers !!


This shows 2 Gospels whether you believe it or not !!

dan p

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi and who is the "WE " in Acts 15:11 ??

And who is the " just as they are " ??

The "we"are the believing Jews and the word "they" is referring to the Gentiles.

What it means is the Messianic assembly which includes the 12 apostles is the " WE " or the Kingdom believers !!

Where in the Bible do we see the 12 apostles being referred to as "kingdom believers"?

This shows 2 Gospels whether you believe it or not !!

I have never denied that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

I quoted Acts 15:11 to demonstrate that Peter said that his salvation was by grace. And since he was saved by grace then "works" had nothing to do with his salvation.

 

[Clete]

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace," a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

The present dispensation began when the dispensational responsibility was first exercised by Paul. And since the following verse is speaking about Paul's gospel we can know that the present dispensation did not begin until he began to preach that gospel to Gentiles:

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being" (Gal.1:15-16).​

I believe that Paul first preached the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles here:

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:46-48).​

Paul's dispensational responsibility to preach the gospel of the grace of God to the Gentiles is spoken of here:

"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away" (Acts 13:2-3).​

What, in your view, is the difference, from a doctrinal perspective, between Acts 9 and Acts 13 Dispensationalism?

 

[Clete]

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Paul was the first saved by grace alone through faith plus nothing, the first in the Body of Christ (I Timothy 1:15-16) . He was saved in Acts 9. Therefore, the Dispensation of Grace started with the conversion of Paul in Acts chapter 9. Paul, some years later, made an agreement with the Twelve that he would go to the Gentiles and that they (Peter, James, Jude, John, etc) would go to the Circumcision (Gal. 2:9). Acts 9 Dispensationalism, in a nutshell.

I don't understand what there is to make a controversy about. It couldn't be clearer.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Paul was the first saved by grace alone through faith plus nothing, the first in the Body of Christ (I Timothy 1:15-16) .

A dispensation is a stewardship and nothing which you said speaks of a stewardship/

Also, Abraham was saved by grace before Paul, as witnessed by Paul's own words:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

I don't understand what there is to make a controversy about. It couldn't be clearer.

Since you obviously do not know that the word "dispensation" refers to a "stewardship" then you are unaware that a stewardship does not begin until that stewardship responsibility is exercised.

 

[Clete]

A dispensation is a stewardship and nothing which you said speaks of a stewardship/

Also, Abraham was saved by grace before Paul, as witnessed by Paul's own words:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Since you obviously do not know that the word "dispensation" refers to a "stewardship" then you are unaware that a stewardship does not begin until that stewardship responsibility is exercised.

Whatever. Why don't stop trying to guess what I do or don't know and answer the question I asked? What difference does it make whether one believes Acts 9 or Acts 13?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Whatever. Why don't stop trying to guess what I do or don't know and answer the question I asked? What difference does it make whether one believes Acts 9 or Acts 13?

If anyone is going to claim that the present dispensation began at Acts 9 then they should be able to explain why they believe that is true.

I believe that it started at Acts 13 and in my OP I demonstrate why I believe that is true.

 

[Clete]

If anyone is going to claim that the present dispensation began at Acts 9 then they should be able to explain why they believe that is true.

I believe that it started at Acts 13 and in my OP I demonstrate why I believe that is true.

I have no doubt that you believe it. I'm wonder what difference it makes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have no doubt that you believe it. I'm wonder what difference it makes.

It matters because if you are going to say that the present dispensation began at Acts 9 you should be able to show why you think that.

Or do you not want to follow Paul when he said that he "kept back nothing that was profitable unto you" and "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:20, 27).

 

[patrick jane]

If anyone is going to claim that the present dispensation began at Acts 9 then they should be able to explain why they believe that is true.

I believe that it started at Acts 13 and in my OP I demonstrate why I believe that is true.

i already said before, it doesn't matter to me WHEN. Paul was visited by Christ on the way to Damascus. Paul was separated at birth, one can argue.

Paul declares and announces that he will preach to the gentiles, with Barnabas -

Acts 9:15 KJV - Acts 11:26 KJV - (Saul & Barnabas)



Acts 13:2 KJV - Acts 13:9 KJV - Acts 13:16-42 KJV -



Acts 13:46 KJV -



Acts 14:27 KJV - Actc15:2 KJV - Acts 15:12-13 KJV - James chimes in @ verse 13



Acts 26:17- KJV - Acts 26-18 KJV Acts 28:27 KJV - Acts 28:28 KJV -





Acts 15:14-15 KJV -

now read these and the rest of Paul's epistles, many of us have been telling you this, please pay attention; it's free - atrol:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul declares and announces that he will preach to the gentiles, with Barnabas -

So? That does not even come close to proving that the present dispensation did not begin at Acts 13.

What do you think that Paul's dispensational responsibility was?