The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

Bright Raven

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1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

MennoSota

New member
1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Question:

Does 1 John 2:2 teach universal atonement?

Answer:

By atonement, we understand that both God's justice and his wrath needed to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and God hates sin (Rom. 2:6-8). Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to die for sin in order to satisfy God's just judgment against sin. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). It was also necessary for Jesus to set aside God's wrath against sin. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom. 5:8-9).

Therefore, when you ask whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universal atonement, I understand you to ask whether that passage teaches that Jesus died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God for everyone in the human race.

First of all, we know God is the author of all Scripture (1 Tim. 3:16) and we know that he is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). We therefore may be certain that no two passages of Scripture are going to teach something contrary to one another.

Second, the angel told Joseph that Jesus, "will save his people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that he laid down his life for the sheep (John 10:15-18) and Paul writes in Titus 2:13-14, "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

We see from these passages that Jesus died only for "his people," "his sheep" and "a people for his own possession." Therefore 1 John 2:2 cannot teach something contrary to these passages.

Also, it cannot be said that 1 John 2:2 is teaching universal atonement unless it is also claimed that it teaches universal salvation, which it clearly does not since John goes on to write about those who love the world and are passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and the antichrists who have departed from God's people and who deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:18-23), and those who abide in sin and therefore are of the devil (1 John 3:6-8).

If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universal salvation or universal atonement, what is it teaching?

When we look here at God's Word it must be remembered that the words "all" and "world" do not always mean "every member of the human race." Acts 19:10 says, "This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Do we think that Paul personally preached to every single man, woman and child living in Asia? No.

Again, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23, Paul says that all things are lawful for him. Would he really mean that he is permitted to practice idolatry and sexual immorality? No.

Therefore when John writes "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" first, he is building on what he wrote in the first chapter. He is showing that the message of salvation has gone out from the apostles to all those who have heard it (in the whole world) so that they can have fellowship with the apostles and with the Father and Son (1 John 1:1-4). It is a message that has gone out to all of the nations of the world.

Here then in 1 John 2:2 he reminds them that in their struggle against sin they can continue to find forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The forgiveness and propitiation for sins that is only through Jesus Christ is the only means by which those who are in the world can ever be forgiven—not just the apostles who knew Jesus, but everyone in the world—that is, all those who have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1:5) and who can know that they know him because they keep his word (2:3-6).

https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=418
 

aikido7

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Banned
Actually, the blood atonement theology was not worked out until some 900 years after the crucifixion by famous Christian theologian Aselm of Canterbury.

“Go and learn what this means: [God] desires mercy and not sacrifice.”
--Matthew 9:13
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Also when stated that those whom Christ died for are redeemed BY HIS BLOOD from a vain conversation received from their fathers 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from or away from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That's why its impossible for the false teachers in 2 Pet 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Its impossible for them to have been redeemed by Christ's Blood, for His Blood would redeem them out of false religion, as it does from all iniquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from apo all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That word from apo is the greek prep which means:

of separation of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
of separation of a part from the whole where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

The redeemed one by the blood will be separated from false teachers, or they will separate from true believers like 1 Jn 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Now these things Titus 2:14; 1 Pet 1:18 are the result and effect of Christ Crucified, not a maybe or possible result, but a sure result, and so True Believers shall Glory in the Cross as Paul saith here Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.


Amen to all 3 parts: GLORYING IN THE CROSS NOT FREEWILL OF MAN !

The false gospel of man's freewill, being totally antichrist, teaches that the Atonement of Christ was indefinite, so that now it causes men to derive a false assurance of salvation based upon works and/or duties they perform; and not the Finished Work of the Cross of Jesus Christ which definitely Saves all for whom it was shed John 10:11; Eph. 5:25; Mat. 1:21 !
 

MennoSota

New member
1 John 2:2
Question:

Does 1 John 2:2 teach universal atonement?

Answer:

By atonement, we understand that both God's justice and his wrath needed to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and God hates sin (Rom. 2:6-8). Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to die for sin in order to satisfy God's just judgment against sin. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). It was also necessary for Jesus to set aside God's wrath against sin. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom. 5:8-9).

Therefore, when you ask whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universal atonement, I understand you to ask whether that passage teaches that Jesus died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God for everyone in the human race.

First of all, we know God is the author of all Scripture (1 Tim. 3:16) and we know that he is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). We therefore may be certain that no two passages of Scripture are going to teach something contrary to one another.

Second, the angel told Joseph that Jesus, "will save his people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that he laid down his life for the sheep (John 10:15-18) and Paul writes in Titus 2:13-14, "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

We see from these passages that Jesus died only for "his people," "his sheep" and "a people for his own possession." Therefore 1 John 2:2 cannot teach something contrary to these passages.

Also, it cannot be said that 1 John 2:2 is teaching universal atonement unless it is also claimed that it teaches universal salvation, which it clearly does not since John goes on to write about those who love the world and are passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and the antichrists who have departed from God's people and who deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:18-23), and those who abide in sin and therefore are of the devil (1 John 3:6-8).

If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universal salvation or universal atonement, what is it teaching?

When we look here at God's Word it must be remembered that the words "all" and "world" do not always mean "every member of the human race." Acts 19:10 says, "This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Do we think that Paul personally preached to every single man, woman and child living in Asia? No.

Again, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23, Paul says that all things are lawful for him. Would he really mean that he is permitted to practice idolatry and sexual immorality? No.

Therefore when John writes "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" first, he is building on what he wrote in the first chapter. He is showing that the message of salvation has gone out from the apostles to all those who have heard it (in the whole world) so that they can have fellowship with the apostles and with the Father and Son (1 John 1:1-4). It is a message that has gone out to all of the nations of the world.

Here then in 1 John 2:2 he reminds them that in their struggle against sin they can continue to find forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The forgiveness and propitiation for sins that is only through Jesus Christ is the only means by which those who are in the world can ever be forgiven—not just the apostles who knew Jesus, but everyone in the world—that is, all those who have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1:5) and who can know that they know him because they keep his word (2:3-6).

https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=418
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Question:

Does 1 John 2:2 teach universal atonement?

Answer:

By atonement, we understand that both God's justice and his wrath needed to be satisfied. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) and God hates sin (Rom. 2:6-8). Therefore it was necessary for Jesus to die for sin in order to satisfy God's just judgment against sin. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). It was also necessary for Jesus to set aside God's wrath against sin. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Rom. 5:8-9).

Therefore, when you ask whether 1 John 2:2 teaches universal atonement, I understand you to ask whether that passage teaches that Jesus died to satisfy the justice and wrath of God for everyone in the human race.

First of all, we know God is the author of all Scripture (1 Tim. 3:16) and we know that he is not a God of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). We therefore may be certain that no two passages of Scripture are going to teach something contrary to one another.

Second, the angel told Joseph that Jesus, "will save his people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21). Jesus said that he laid down his life for the sheep (John 10:15-18) and Paul writes in Titus 2:13-14, "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works."

We see from these passages that Jesus died only for "his people," "his sheep" and "a people for his own possession." Therefore 1 John 2:2 cannot teach something contrary to these passages.

Also, it cannot be said that 1 John 2:2 is teaching universal atonement unless it is also claimed that it teaches universal salvation, which it clearly does not since John goes on to write about those who love the world and are passing away (1 John 2:15-17) and the antichrists who have departed from God's people and who deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:18-23), and those who abide in sin and therefore are of the devil (1 John 3:6-8).

If 1 John 2:2 is not teaching universal salvation or universal atonement, what is it teaching?

When we look here at God's Word it must be remembered that the words "all" and "world" do not always mean "every member of the human race." Acts 19:10 says, "This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks." Do we think that Paul personally preached to every single man, woman and child living in Asia? No.

Again, in 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23, Paul says that all things are lawful for him. Would he really mean that he is permitted to practice idolatry and sexual immorality? No.

Therefore when John writes "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" first, he is building on what he wrote in the first chapter. He is showing that the message of salvation has gone out from the apostles to all those who have heard it (in the whole world) so that they can have fellowship with the apostles and with the Father and Son (1 John 1:1-4). It is a message that has gone out to all of the nations of the world.

Here then in 1 John 2:2 he reminds them that in their struggle against sin they can continue to find forgiveness through Jesus Christ. The forgiveness and propitiation for sins that is only through Jesus Christ is the only means by which those who are in the world can ever be forgiven—not just the apostles who knew Jesus, but everyone in the world—that is, all those who have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1:5) and who can know that they know him because they keep his word (2:3-6).

https://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=418

No! It teaches that Christ died for all, not that all are saved.
 

MennoSota

New member
Then you are guilty of teaching that Christs death alone doesn't save them He died for, and guilty of teaching salvation is by what man does, which equates to salvation by works, which is apostasy ! Theres no way around it
He's also guilty of teaching double jeopardy whereby God judges sin twice. The first time God atones for all sins, but then God denies that atonement and rejudges based not on the atonement, but upon whether a person conjured up enough faith. Lack of faith, beats atonement of Christ and thus condemns to hell. It's a God dishonoring doctrine.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Then you are guilty of teaching that Christs death alone doesn't save them He died for, and guilty of teaching salvation is by what man does, which equates to salvation by works, which is apostasy ! Theres no way around it

He's also guilty of teaching double jeopardy whereby God judges sin twice. The first time God atones for all sins, but then God denies that atonement and rejudges based not on the atonement, but upon whether a person conjured up enough faith. Lack of faith, beats atonement of Christ and thus condemns to hell. It's a God dishonoring doctrine.

You are both liars.

B57, the Calvinist, is a lost sinner for denying that God requires faith for the lost to be saved. Faith is NOT a work. Anyone may be saved. Those are Bible facts. But B57 has denied all of this for years.

MennoSota is a lost sinner for denying the Bible fact that God requires each person BELIEVE that Christ died for his or her sins, even though Christ did indeed take the sin debt of the world upon Himself. That's why salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH in what He did, and no one can be saved without it...the DBR does no one any good UNLESS and UNTIL they've believed it for themselves.

Both of you are lost for believing other gospels.
 

MennoSota

New member
You are both liars.

B57, the Calvinist, is a lost sinner for denying that God requires faith for the lost to be saved. Faith is NOT a work. Anyone may be saved. Those are Bible facts. But B57 has denied all of this for years.

MennoSota is a lost sinner for denying the Bible fact that God requires each person BELIEVE that Christ died for his or her sins, even though Christ did indeed take the sin debt of the world upon Himself. That's why salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH in what He did, and no one can be saved without it...the DBR does no one any good UNLESS and UNTIL they've believed it for themselves.

Both of you are lost for believing other gospels.
I do not deny that a person must believe and must have faith. That is biblical.
What scripture says is that faith/belief is a gift from God as a result of God graciously making a person alive in Christ. A spiritually dead person cannot make themselves spiritually alive by their own will power. God must choose to make them alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:1-10 is very clear on this issue.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
must

.the DBR does no one any good UNLESS and UNTIL they've believed it for themselves.

This statement is #1 a lie and #2 it denies the Saving Work of Christ which is Apostasy!

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Rom 5:11

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus christ.

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.

a. what do you think it means?

b. what do I think it means?

c. what does God mean my that?

d. which one should we care about? a, b, or c?
 

musterion

Well-known member
I do not deny that a person must believe and must have faith. That is biblical.
What scripture says is that faith/belief is a gift from God as a result of God graciously making a person alive in Christ. A spiritually dead person cannot make themselves spiritually alive by their own will power. God must choose to make them alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:1-10 is very clear on this issue.

WRONG, and I'll show you why.

There are three options in that passage as to what "the gift of God" is. Taken in order...

a. grace
b. saved (salvation)
c. faith


Whatever the gift is, we know,

1. it is not of [from] ourselves
2. it is the gift of [from] God
3. it is not of [from] works

Whatever "the gift of God" is here, it MUST fit ALL THREE.

Take them one at a time...

•GRACE by definition cannot ever be of works, so it is automatically not of ourselves. Grace cannot be the gift referred to in this passage.

•FAITH also cannot result from works -- Paul sets faith as the OPPOSITE of works. However, faith IS of ourselves in that God expects faith of everyone and will condemn those who REFUSE to act with faith. So faith also cannot be the gift of God here.

•SALVATION ALONE fits all three descriptors: it IS by grace, it is NOT of works, and it is NOT of ourselves.
 

MennoSota

New member
WRONG, and I'll show you why.

There are three options in that passage as to what "the gift of God" is. Taken in order...

a. grace
b. saved (salvation)
c. faith


Whatever the gift is, we know,

1. it is not of [from] ourselves
2. it is the gift of [from] God
3. it is not of [from] works

Whatever "the gift of God" is here, it MUST fit ALL THREE.

Take them one at a time...

•GRACE by definition cannot ever be of works, so it is automatically not of ourselves. Grace cannot be the gift referred to in this passage.

•FAITH also cannot result from works -- Paul sets faith as the OPPOSITE of works. However, faith IS of ourselves in that God expects faith of everyone and will condemn those who REFUSE to act with faith. So faith also cannot be the gift of God here.

•SALVATION ALONE fits all three descriptors: it IS by grace, it is NOT of works, and it is NOT of ourselves.
Faith is not of ourselves. Spiritually dead people cannot conjure up their own faith. If they did, then grace ceases to exist.
Only those whom God has chosen to make alive, in Christ, can have the faith, given by God, to believe that God has actually done what He has done.
Why do you think so many people "lose their faith?" It is because they never had God given faith to begin with. They were faking it in hopes of making it. But, God says that they fall short and die in their sins.
God, on the other hand, never loses even one of His elect.
John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

You must ignore God's word to preach that humans conjure up their own faith by their own means. Faith is by no means...of ourselves. You are entirely wrong and scripture tells you that you are wrong.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
The Christian theology of atonement was not developed until some 900 years after the crucifixion. It was fashioned by the theologian Anselm of Canterbury.

Early Christian texts reveal groups of Jesus people did not consider [or were ignorant of the Passion, the crucifixion and the resurrection]. They favored Jesus’ actual teachings and sayings.


Instead of a “belief-based” faith, they tended to be an “action-based” fatih.

Today, being a Christian has to do with holding a set of beliefs instead of letting Jesus speak for himself and following his teachings, studying his parables, etc.

I note with regret that Christians can claim a list of theological tenets, yet can still be jerks.

Many repeat in low, sonorous tones to “believe, believe and believe” yet they suffer not the slightest urge to change their own behavior!

Childish name-calling and cruel invective have no place in a Christian’s life.
Besides being disrespectful and boorish, they certainly do not honor the memory of Jesus.
 
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