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Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Dear TownHeretic:

If I may sum up:

(1) I believe the majority of lawyers are corrupt criminals.
You left off pedophiles, so I suppose that's some progress.

You believe the majority of lawyers are honest upright good guys.
I'm optimistic with people in general, but mostly I don't judge and find lacking, let alone condemn as evil those I'm not in a position to appraise reasonably.

(2) Your clinical experience informs you that in your area there are many altruistic 'pro bono' lawyers working for the public good, motivated by their yummy goodness.
I know that to be the case. And I observe the essential facts of the life of my community within the confines of one state where I reside and have made most of my practice over time. The Bar notes the pro bono work and compiles a list of those leading that particular charge each year.

My clinical experience informs me that in my area there are mostly criminals, motivated by money and even less savoury intent.
Rather, you attempt to make this a difference of opinion and conflate your anecdotal experience with the breadth of my own and without addressing what moves beyond either but can be readily evidenced by any number of means.

(3) You rightly called me on some sarcastic hyperbole intended to guilt you into looking at the Hovind case.
I don't know, Naz. The language and vitriol seemed more consistently angry in a way that troubled me more than it seemed sarcastic or framed in a way that would reasonably be expected to induce cooperation or interest in someone whose profession you called criminal and filled with, among other things, pedophiles. I just don't know what to think of your state of mind on the topic at present.

(4) We can both concede that it would be difficult to change my opinion of lawyers.
Impossible, if that reflects the foundation. I can't reason a man out of that which isn't reasonable and there's no point in making the attempt.

However, you view my opinion as emotionally based rather than clinically based, and I view myself as open to new evidence, and view my opinion as evidence-based.
No, the emotional element was made prima facie with your repeatedly expressed desire to shoot and/or imprison, among other equally disturbing posits...but essentially I found that symptomatic of an approach that can and must be described as irrational, by which I don't mean the simple insult but rather that which cannot have its foundation in reason.

(5) Its also my view however, that my personal opinion of lawyers is not a brush to paint 'innocent' lawyers with, or to condemn any individual lawyer out of hand.
Naz, when you condemn all lawyers and express the desires you did it must reduce to the individual or you're being dishonest and I don't think you're dishonest...I simply think you spoke from something that needs addressing, something dark and wrong that you've nurtured sufficiently that you've looked to anchor it in other authority, like you attempted with the Bible.

My observations of you and your moral behaviour and approach inform me that you are a remarkable person, and I have difficulty believing you actually are a lawyer.
I appreciate that and my hope is that you read most of my response, acerbic as some of it has been as the sign of a genuine concern and alarm in relation to your expressed belief about my fellows. I've known far too many I'd be honored to stand with.

More than a few have left the practice of law for other altruistic pursuits. One of my favorites runs a mission for the poor in a nearby city. He was an outstanding advocate for the poor before taking on that role.

(6) We also have I believe a slightly different view of the function of emotion, and even outrage and anger over moral crimes.

You seem convinced that emotional response is generally bad,
based on the belief that it clouds reason.
I believe that emotions are powerful allies when they are moved by and under the direction of our intellect and dangerous foes when they lead the intellect. So I don't believe racism is wrong because I feel it to be, but I feel strongly about racism because I know it to be an evil.

I also believe that the same fully functional human being will have a shock, repulsion, and anger response to criminal evil, and those who intentionally do evil and promote evil. It seems to me to be impossible to sympathize with victims, and not feel equal anger and hatred toward culprits.
I certainly have nothing against empathy and compassion.

I don't believe my emotional responses cloud my thinking at all.They do help me however to choose how I will devote my time and resources.
I think that on the point they have to your peril and the peril of others you'd misjudge by virtue of being led by your response to a particular which by the nature of its impact made you an uncautious judge of the general.

(7) I must also thank you for the surprising and unusual amount of time and effort you have made to personally respond to me.
De nada.

I think it may be a record!
I've had some fairly prolonged arguments with my heathen friends and a few anti theists determined to be disruptive, but the constraints on my time have made those occasions fewer and fewer and, honestly, I've learned that past a point it's unprofitable to continue in any vein, as there's only so much to be said to a point and the rest becomes a grudge match and endurance contest.

I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing your thinking and agree with much of what you have said. Its even fair to say that your extra effort has given me pause in regard to some of my core beliefs about lawyers (a minority of them at any rate).
I hope that remains the case and temper anything above this fold (as I write reading along and in the moment) with that sentiment.

I would say that although you sound pessimistic about your efforts, they are not a waste of time if others can also make independent judgements of various points. Although I can imagine your time and effort is valuable and shouldn't be wasted, I personally appreciate your attention.
If I've managed any good I won't count it as a waste, though I worried after making a bad situation worse by encouraging thoughts in you that I couldn't count on impacting and which struck me as doing neither of us any good.

I don't crave attention of others normally, only the attention of good people, and people whom I can recognize as positive contributors to our world and the kingdom of God.

I hope that ending on this note will encourage you to continue!
It's a much welcomed note and I'll keep your better angels in my prayers.

:e4e:
 

Nazaroo

New member
Let me round this out with the following:



If I've managed any good I won't count it as a waste, though I worried after making a bad situation worse by encouraging thoughts in you that I couldn't count on impacting and which struck me as doing neither of us any good.

Quote:
... people whom I can recognize as positive contributors to our world and the kingdom of God.

I hope that ending on this note will encourage you to continue!
It's a much welcomed note and I'll keep your better angels in my prayers.




Since we've drifted 'off-topic' here,
and yet the conversation is so fruitful, revealing and educational,
I'm proposing we start a thread (perhaps in the Religion section),
simply entitled "Town and Naz" or something similarly clever,
like "Christopher Robin and Pooh Bear".

In that thread we can freely exchange ideas much as C.S. Lewis
and J.R.R. Tolkien might, only ... darker and more disturbing,
and perhaps in some cases shredding cherished semi-Christian
or post-Christian assumptions.

Please let me know if this is an acceptable alternative

peace
Nazaroo
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What do you call a bus-load of lawyers going off a cliff?
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
You mean a busload of lawyers with one empty seat? If you're going to tell a mean-spirited joke, at least get the set-up right.
 

bybee

New member
Let me round this out with the following:



If I've managed any good I won't count it as a waste, though I worried after making a bad situation worse by encouraging thoughts in you that I couldn't count on impacting and which struck me as doing neither of us any good.

Quote:

It's a much welcomed note and I'll keep your better angels in my prayers.




Since we've drifted 'off-topic' here,
and yet the conversation is so fruitful, revealing and educational,
I'm proposing we start a thread (perhaps in the Religion section),
simply entitled "Town and Naz" or something similarly clever,
like "Christopher Robin and Pooh Bear".

In that thread we can freely exchange ideas much as C.S. Lewis
and J.R.R. Tolkien might, only ... darker and more disturbing,
and perhaps in some cases shredding cherished semi-Christian
or post-Christian assumptions.

Please let me know if this is an acceptable alternative

peace
Nazaroo

I would not like that. You may "shred" all you wish. Just keep it civil.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
I could always get a laugh bashing lawyers. Almost everyone has had some experience with the legal system that didn't work out as well as they hoped, so of course, it's the lawyer's fault. Like ethnic jokes used to be, until the moral climate improved.

A lot of the lawyer jokes were actually WASP jokes initially. They transfer well; the stereotypes most people have of lawyers pretty much map onto stereotypes of white Anglo-Saxon Protestants.

My favorite:
Three hunters, one of them a lawyer, come to a stream. They ford across it, and on the other side find themselves having to remove a number of leeches. The lawyer has none.

"How come you didn't get any leeches?"

"Professional courtesy."
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Q. Why do republican politicians hate republican lawyers?

A. The republican lawyers are always talking about tough sentences for minority kids and the republican politicians think they're teaching them to read.
 

bybee

New member
Q. Why do Republican politicians hate republican lawyers?

A. The republican lawyers are always talking about tough sentences for minority kids and the politicians think they're teaching them to read.

So you are not above specious nastiness? I thought you were....
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
Bybee writes:
So you are not above specious nastiness? I thought you were....

That's comes with jokes like these. Is there any of them in this thread that are not? You seem to be the only one who actually got the point, so far. Thank you.

As I said, they are no better than ethnic jokes. Cheap laughs, and yes, mean. One of my sons is a lawyer, and we tell them when our wives aren't around, because we know it.

And now, maybe your comment will bring the end to this tawdry little thread.
 

bybee

New member
Bybee writes:


That's comes with jokes like these. Is there any of them in this thread that are not? You seem to be the only one who actually got the point, so far. Thank you.

As I said, they are no better than ethnic jokes. Cheap laughs, and yes, mean. One of my sons is a lawyer, and we tell them when our wives aren't around, because we know it.

Well, I am capable of some nastiness myself....
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
In this case, at least, your sense of decency carried the day. I am sorry if I offended you; but sunlight is a great disinfectant.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
What do you call a bus-load of lawyers going off a cliff?
I don't know. What do you call Stripe when he says, "I don't know"?

Nobody knows. :plain: :eek:


I hadn't heard the leeches joke, but I'd heard the shark variation. I think half my relatives gave me lawyer joke books at graduation. :poly: A lot of them are pretty funny. :)
 
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