Standing Up To Jehovah's Witnesses

[Lazy afternoon]

JWs main error is that they deny Christ comes within, they changed it to with.

Not unlike many who say they believe Christ comes in, but still keep Him out.

LA

 

[NWL]

Jesus is God even in the NWT.

Show us...

Since when is Yahweh mentioned in the NWT?

Where?

So...

Now you just confirmed what I just said....you witnesses always revert back to your NWT as the supposed 'reference'...

I've already stated the errors bowman. I'm sure you know your way around a bible, you can find them yourself.

As I've said, the majority of English translations leave out the divine name and insert words which have no basis in scripture apart from orthodox beliefs, refer to my previous post if you would like to study the examples I gave, which you obviously won't because you know exactly what I'm on about.

Oh, is Yahweh the correct translation of the divine name with 100% certainty bowman?

And no, we don't use Yahweh, we use the English version of the divine name Jehovah, much like you use the name Jesus instead of Yeshua.

Why ask questions you already know the answer to bowman, you trying to start an argument?

And no I didn't confirm what you said. You asked why JW's have their own version, the NWT. I answered that question with my initial post to you explain that the reason why is because other bibles have blatant errors. No translation is free from errors, I would be foolish to claim the NWT is an exception to this.

 

[Apple7]

I've already stated the errors bowman. I'm sure you know your way around a bible, you can find them yourself.

Show us now...or recant your assertion.

Simple.

As I've said, the majority of English translations leave out the divine name and insert words which have no basis in scripture apart from orthodox beliefs, refer to my previous post if you would like to study the examples I gave, which you obviously won't because you know exactly what I'm on about.

But...the NWT 'corrects' all of those, and is held as your reference, right?

Oh, is Yahweh the correct translation of the divine name with 100% certainty bowman?

Yes.

And no, we don't use Yahweh, we use the English version of the divine name Jehovah, much like you use the name Jesus instead of Yeshua.

Who is 'we'...?

Are you saying that the NWT is somehow superior?

Why ask questions you already know the answer to bowman, you trying to start an argument?

Repetition is paramount with you witnesses, is it not?

And no I didn't confirm what you said. You asked why JW's have their own version, the NWT. I answered that question with my initial post to you explain that the reason why is because other bibles have blatant errors. No translation is free from errors, I would be foolish to claim the NWT is an exception to this.

Show us these supposed 'errors' and then demonstrate how the NWT 'corrects' them...

Otherwise recant your repeated lame polemic...

 

[steko]

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


The Lord Jesus is YHVH tsidkenu.

 

[WeberHome]

-
The Watch Tower Society's New World Translation (a.k.a. NWT) is its
workhorse, but not the final say. Another of its Bibles called "The Kingdom
Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures" trumps the NWT; which in
some cases work against them.

For example; here's Colossians 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Kingdom
Interlinear © 1969.

"By means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon
the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they
are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things
have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other]
things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist."

Note that the word "other" is in brackets. The brackets alert readers that
"other" is not in the Greek manuscript; viz: the Kingdom Interlinear's editors
took the liberty to pencil it in; which gives the impression that the Word of
John 1:1-3 was God's first creation; and thereafter, the Word created
everything else.

One day, a pair of Watch Tower missionaries came to my door consisting of
an experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the
trainee to a line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather
dishonest habit of penciling in words that go to reinforcing it's line of
thinking.

I had him read Colossians 1:16-17 from the Interlinear and then pointed out
that the word "other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not
in the Greek manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It
comes out like this:

"By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth,
the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been
created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means
of him all things were made to exist."

The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to
discover that Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he
was led to believe.

Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out to the trainee that the
Society is inconsistent with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it
into John 1:3 so that it reads like this:

"All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not
even one [other] thing came into existence."

Now; as to tampering with Paul's writings, and forcing them to mean things
they don't say in Greek; this is what Peter has to say about that.

†. 2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as
salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given
him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his
letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the
untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the
Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Untaught people are oftentimes self-taught; and were the Society's
missionaries to check into ol' Charles T. Russell's rather ignoble past; they'd
find that "self-taught" pretty much describes the origin of their theology.
Caveat Lector.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[NWL]

Show us now...or recant your assertion.

Simple.

But...the NWT 'corrects' all of those, and is held as your reference, right?

Yes.

Who is 'we'...?

Are you saying that the NWT is somehow superior?

Repetition is paramount with you witnesses, is it not?

Show us these supposed 'errors' and then demonstrate how the NWT 'corrects' them...

Otherwise recant your repeated lame polemic...

The NWT is not my reference no, the original languages are.

"We" refers the the group Jehovah's witnesses which I am a part of, as you already know.

Do I think the NWT is more superior? It depends on what aspect, is it more accurate in placing a translation for Gods name compared to most others? Yes. In not using the word Cross for the instrument for Jesus death? Yes. In not using other words some of which I wrote in my previous post? Yes. In using plain modern English? Yes. In other aspects? Not necessarily.

Bowman do mainstream English bibles have errors in them?

 

[Apple7]

The NWT is not my reference no, the original languages are.

Glad to hear it!

So...how do you explain when the original languages openly, and irrefutably, proclaim that Jesus is Theos....since you, yourself, as witness, deny it...?

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

"We" refers the the group Jehovah's witnesses which I am a part of, as you already know.

Ok...

Do I think the NWT is more superior? It depends on what aspect, is it more accurate in placing a translation for Gods name compared to most others? Yes. In not using the word Cross for the instrument for Jesus death? Yes. In not using other words some of which I wrote in my previous post? Yes. In using plain modern English? Yes. In other aspects? Not necessarily.

And now we get into the game of semantics.

I doubt that you want to go there...you never have before...

Bowman do mainstream English bibles have errors in them?

You claim they do...so, show them...and show just how the NWT (rendered via Liberal Arts majors) 'corrects' them...

 

[KingdomRose]

That is quite interesting, Ben. My brother sounded a bit cocky the way you tell it. If he was, he'll learn eventually. I haven't heard anyone in the last 40 years that I've been a Witness ever say to someone, "Are you afraid?" How witless. And most of us KNOW that Jews aren't supposed to go into a Gentile house of worship. I would've given you the invitation and stopped talking. I get a little aggravated when someone who should know better acts like a child.

 

[KingdomRose]

To Eric H., Post #39: It is because there is no real unity in clumping together different belief systems. Are you really united with someone who doesn't believe what you do? There is already a division there and it will remain. It's kind of like you living next to a man who believes he must play his trumpet for 6 hours from 12 midnight to 6 AM every night. How long will you remain united in anything? Why do you think people with opposites in belief can be united?

 

[KingdomRose]

Thats exactly right, we used to have JWS and Mormons knock at our doors a lot, once we invited a couple of them in (from each group as they came) and shared the truth with them including the gospel of salvation, they have never returned, not even different ones - weve yet to have another visit from either group.

I'm really curious. Why do you think that we don't believe in the gospel of salvation?

 

[Apple7]

To Eric H., Post #39: It is because there is no real unity in clumping together different belief systems. Are you really united with someone who doesn't believe what you do? There is already a division there and it will remain. It's kind of like you living next to a man who believes he must play his trumpet for 6 hours from 12 midnight to 6 AM every night. How long will you remain united in anything? Why do you think people with opposites in belief can be united?

So...

I heard that if you are not a 'witness', you cannot enter Heaven.

 

[KingdomRose]

Either the OP is building up to it in their presentation on here, or is to focused on getting along, or is too books based and all they end up going into but the crunch question "do you know for sure that if you were to die right now that you have a place in God's Heaven; what are you basing that on; and; if you were wrong, would you want to know about it, on the authority of God's Word?"

That right there puts whats really what on the table "without" as the Apostle Paul might have put it "controversy."

I'll wait the OP out; see where they are going with all this; such waiting out appears to be part of their point.

Weber has put so much exaggeration and downright falsehoods out there about JWs that I really don't think anything is to be accomplished in the spirit of peace and truth.

Anyway, we wouldn't have any problem with your "crunch question." If we were to die right now, I know I would wake up in Paradise. Jesus would be ruling, and a clean-up of the planet would be underway. The dead would be being resurrected (as I was) and everything would be peaceful, joyful, and reconciled! Most of us don't want to be in heaven. Our hope is Paradise. I base that on the Bible, and I would show you all the verses that tell me I'm spot on.

 

[KingdomRose]

If you don't mind wasting a little time in a Bible discussion like being on this forum, then I totally agree with the above point. Talk to them. Or not if you are busy.

The last time JW's came around, I had the agenda of questioning them as to why they thought they were the only right church on earth. I was trying to point out that only cults think they are the only right church. It was a pleasant discussion.

Then you think the Catholic Church is a cult? I'm not being prissy. I always heard, as I was growing up, that the RCC stated unequivocably that it was the only Church. I always knew that. Popes might be wavering on that now, but there never used to be any wavering. And might I ask....if you don't think your church is the right one, why are you going to it?

If I thought that other religions were also right, why would I be a JW? It's EASIER to be something else. :Christine

 

[Apple7]

If we were to die right now, I know I would wake up in Paradise.

If you are a witness, and you were to die right now, then you should be afraid.

Very afraid.

If you deny the Triune God, then you most assuredly will be judged and spend some good quality time with Satan...

 

[NWL]

Glad to hear it!

So...how do you explain when the original languages openly, and irrefutably, proclaim that Jesus is Theos....since you, yourself, as witness, deny it...?

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

And now we get into the game of semantics.

I doubt that you want to go there...you never have before...

You claim they do...so, show them...and show just how the NWT (rendered via Liberal Arts majors) 'corrects' them...

I don't deny Jesus is Theos, I simply don't accept that he is almighty God, YHWH.

Rules in grammar aren't inherently rules in language. I find it incredibly implausible to believe that a man who never names Jesus as God once, but yet named the Father as God over 500 times, refer to Jesus as God in a single verse. Especially when this one instance rest on a rule which was formed in the late 17th CE by a man who wanted to promote the trinity doctrine.

I'd much rather stick with the previous chapter in Titus 1:4 and understand Titus 2:14 to be expressing Jesus and God to be referring to the same individuals mentioned in the said verse.

No, I claim that all bibles have errors. Im not going to waste my time arguing with someone who I'm quite sure shares the same belief as me. Hence the reason why o asked if you believe all bible contain errors, because if you do then what's the point in me proving something to you which you already believe.

 

[NWL]

If you are a witness, and you were to die right now, then you should be afraid.

Very afraid.

If you deny the Triune God, then you most assuredly will be judged and spend some good quality time with Satan...

Good quality time with Satan In what aspect?

 

[Apple7]

I don't deny Jesus is Theos, I simply don't accept that he is almighty God, YHWH.

There is only one Theos.

If you agree that Jesus is Theos; then you must agree that Jesus is Yahweh.

Rules in grammar aren't inherently rules in language. I find it incredibly implausible to believe that a man who never names Jesus as God once, but yet named the Father as God over 500 times, refer to Jesus as God in a single verse. Especially when this one instance rest on a rule which was formed in the late 17th CE by a man who wanted to promote the trinity doctrine.

This is the best response that you could google, brother...?

TSKS is one of the most proven principles in Greek grammar.

If you like to deal with the original languages, like you said that you did, then you would not be shying away from it right now...

I'd much rather stick with the previous chapter in Titus 1:4 and understand Titus 2:14 to be expressing Jesus and God to be referring to the same individuals mentioned in the said verse.

Proceed with the original language....like you claimed to be a fan of...

No, I claim that all bibles have errors. Im not going to waste my time arguing with someone who I'm quite sure shares the same belief as me. Hence the reason why o asked if you believe all bible contain errors, because if you do then what's the point in me proving something to you which you already believe.

If you take the time to make a claim, then you must take the time to defend said claim....otherwise, recant.

How many people like me are you going to successfully witness to when I call your bluff...?

Answer.

Zero.

 

[KingdomRose]

To TruthJourney, post #74.....

Go to the real thing if you want to know about something. www.jw.org will tell you everything you want to know....what JWs believe and why. And really, 999 out of 1,000 baptized JWs will tell you what we believe and show you the Scriptures to back it up. Maybe 1 out of 1,000 would not be able to because they have dementia.

The websites you propose to be searched are false, unscrupulous, negative and nasty. There is nothing positive or up-building about them. What do they offer except hate for JWs?

I have been a JW for 40 years, and I am not easily led nor am I stupid. If I saw something going on that was against Scripture I would speak out immediately and I wouldn't care if I got thrown out. As it is, I have never seen anything contrary to Scripture going on. I have never been in a more loving, stable, unhypocritical religious organization in my life.

Before the individual who runs "Silent Lambs" was disfellowshipped, I listened to him on some show on TV. The guy was pointedly stirring up contention against the WT. He was depressing, negative, hateful and fallacious. I couldn't believe the junk he was saying. The moderator asked him if it was true that JWs considered HIM (the moderator) to be Satanic, and the ex-JW said Yes! What a lie. He was trying to stir up a whole lot of trouble. JWs believe that the system is corrupt and controlled by Satan (I John 5:19), but we do not say that about INDIVIDUALS. Only God can judge people.

You will be wasting your time if you go anywhere to learn about JWs except their own website, www.jw.org

There are awesome articles about Hell, for example. Upper right-hand corner, click on Search and type in "Hell." Then click on Search again.

There are beautiful short videos on a variety of subjects, appealing especially to children, and longer videos as well on subjects from the Creation to how the organization runs.

 

[Apple7]

Good quality time with Satan In what aspect?

Meaning that all JW's will be judged and never make it to heaven.

You will be spending eternity with your real father, Satan.

 

[Apple7]

I have been a JW for 40 years, and I am not easily led nor am I stupid.

You are, theologically.