ST. JOHN 11:26

[way 2 go]

It's very difficult to understand what you are trying to say without complete sentences.

sorry .

1 can only be the crucified mans spirit , as his body is in the ground.Luk 23:43

2 rich man died Luk 16:19-31
3 rich man buried , therefore his body is in the ground.
4 rich man is in Hades & is in fire therefore it has to be his spirit or soul it can't be his body remember his body is in the ground.
5 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried so can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit
5b rich man having a conversation while in fire so not the rich mans body as that is not how our bodies react to fire

6 people are buried in graves & the Sea not in Hades Rev 20:13-14
7 death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them so nobody buried there has to be spirits
8 death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire & not the sea = different
8b death and Hades cannot be seen (with human eyes) , the Sea can be seen (with human eyes)
9 death and Hades is for spirits, Sea is for bodies

10 now believers souls go to heaven Rev 6:9

The thing about the body being in the ground is possibly mitigated by a potential resurrection. This is where we differ, I know, but the old testament seems to think the resurrection is the crucial thing for the afterlife. The new testament does too. In this they are in agreement.

Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

I have no idea where you get that idea.

Were Moses and Elijah resurrected when they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration? No.

If you think about what a man will experience when he dies, assuming he has no way of interacting with the environment or angels or God without his body (just an assumption at this point), you can imagine that the next place the rich man would have any cognizance would be after his resurrection. Thus he feels pain. Thus he can see Abraham. Thus he can long for something. And, since he wasn't cognizant of anything else until his body was returned to life, there wasn't any space of time that he would know of between death and his resurrection. This fits the Old Testament narratives, the Rev 20 narrative, the rich man narrative, the Lazarus narrative, the thief on the cross narrative, and the 1Thess 4:13-18 narrative.


I don't know that any other theory fits as many passages.

Luk 16:19-31 can not be after the resurrection Abraham is there ,Abraham is in heaven now & if you do not believe that,
you have to know Abraham would definitely not be there after the resurrection

the rich mans brothers would have already died if this was after the resurrection

 

[Derf]

I have no idea where you get that idea.

Were Moses and Elijah resurrected when they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration? No.

Why do you say "no"? What form do you think Moses and Elijah were in? Was it a spirit-only form? The disciples didn't seem to think so. Was it a body-less soul form? If you answer, please tell me your source.

I don't know. The scripture doesn't say, so we're left to speculate.

Spoiler

[Luk 9:30 KJV] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
[Luk 9:31 KJV] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
[Luk 9:32 KJV] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
[Luk 9:33 KJV] And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
[Luk 9:34 KJV] While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
[Luk 9:35 KJV] And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Some things in there that suggest they appeared in bodies:
--Jesus *body* was glorified. And Moses and Elijah appeared in a form like Jesus (also glorified). Doesn't it make sense that they appeared in some kind of *body*?
--Vs 32 says "two men stood with him"--the narrator tells us what they saw (or what they thought they saw), and it looked like "men" "standing" (and another account says they were "talking" to Jesus), rather than "spirits" "hovering".
--In vs 33, Peter wants to make 3 tabernacles, one for each. So he must have thought they needed some kind of shelter, perhaps, or maybe Peter wanted to make a shrine for each. Whatever the case, Peter was treating them all the same.

 

[Derf]

[MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION], [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION], [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION]

English "will" and "shall" often get confused (and grammar may not be Way 2 Go's strong point) but the traditional translation of Luke 23:43 "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" places the promise that day and the fulfillment at any point in the future. As such the passage has no difficulty either with or without a knowledge of time passing in death. It's only with the newer English translations that change the word to "will" that the passage then appears to read as if it promised immediate fulfillment.

Luke 23:42-43 KJV
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But for those that would argue that "will" is the intended translation, I'd ask anyone to show me where Jesus could be counted as being in Paradise that day. Three days later and he tells Mary that he has not yet ascended to his Father.

John 20:17 KJV
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Don't forget that the story line maintains that "Paradise" and "Abraham's Bosom" are both referring to the section of Hades where Lazarus went. So if the thief on the cross went there "today", and Jesus was in Hades for three days, then it fits.

The problem is that being with Jesus in a "Paradise" TODAY that was still in Hades was not much of a promise, was it? Wasn't David (and his first son from Bathsheba) and Samuel and Abraham, as well as most of the kings of Judah who "slept with their fathers"? Isn't that where Moses and Elijah were?

Why is it a special promise to the thief? May one could argue that instead of being on the "hot" side of Hades, he was allowed into the comfy side. But doesn't this cheapen the promise we all take to heart that we will be with Jesus, and being with Jesus is the best thing that could ever happen?

 

[Derf]

I have no idea where you get that idea.

Were Moses and Elijah resurrected when they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration? No.

Why do you say "no"? What form do you think Moses and Elijah were in? Was it a spirit-only form? The disciples didn't seem to think so. Was it a body-less soul form? If you answer, please tell me your source.

I don't know. The scripture doesn't say, so we're left to speculate.

Spoiler

[Luk 9:30 KJV] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
[Luk 9:31 KJV] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
[Luk 9:32 KJV] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
[Luk 9:33 KJV] And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
[Luk 9:34 KJV] While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
[Luk 9:35 KJV] And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Some things in there that suggest they appeared in bodies:
--Jesus *body* was glorified. And Moses and Elijah appeared in a form like Jesus (also glorified). Doesn't it make sense that they appeared in some kind of *body*?
--Vs 32 says "two men stood with him"--the narrator tells us what they saw (or what they thought they saw), and it looked like "men" "standing" (and another account says they were "talking" to Jesus), rather than "spirits" "hovering".
--In vs 33, Peter wants to make 3 tabernacles, one for each. So he must have thought they needed some kind of shelter, perhaps, or maybe Peter wanted to make a shrine for each. Whatever the case, Peter was treating them all the same.

One more thing, [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION]. If Moses and Elijah were NOT in a resurrected form, then why did Abraham tell the rich man that Lazarus would have to RISE FROM THE DEAD to go to the man's five brothers? Couldn't he have just done the same thing as Moses and Elijah, whatever it was they were doing?

This same line of reasoning could be used to say that Lazarus and the rich man were both cognizant in death, because Lazarus wasn't risen from the dead during this conversations between Abraham and the rich man, nor were they, but they were still talking and seeing and sensing pain (at least the rich man was). I think this is what [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] is getting at.

 

[Rosenritter]

how could that be possible :shocked:
oh wait Rosen did you forget Jesus is God



Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


God is one God so
the convict is in paradise with God that day

Your post doesn't make coherent sense. I really don't know what point you are trying to make.

 

[Rosenritter]

@Rosenritter, @way 2 go, @glorydaz
Don't forget that the story line maintains that "Paradise" and "Abraham's Bosom" are both referring to the section of Hades where Lazarus went. So if the thief on the cross went there "today", and Jesus was in Hades for three days, then it fits.

Assuming we are still talking about the Parable of the Rich Man from Luke 16, that story line doesn't maintain anything about "Paradise." I suspect that Glorydaz and Way 2 Go are maintaining that "paradise' is a subsection of Hades, but if so that is something they are laying on top of the story in an attempt to reconcile it with Luke 23:43, not something that the story itself necessarily contains nor requires.

If we are using the bible to define Paradise (rather than attempting to define it backwards to fit already-declared theology) Paul says that Paradise is "up" in the "third heaven."

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
(1) It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


That is the reason why (if you talk long enough with folk of that persuasion) you will hear a story that Paradise is a place that moves about, as if it were one of those Recreational Vehicles that parks in the south for six months before heading back north.

I think it is more reasonable to assume that Paradise has a more consistent nature, being where the "tree of life" is found in "the paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7) and of the third heaven (2 Cor 12:1-4). Further reference might be made from the "tree of life" as this is the reward of believers in Christ, within the Holy City (see Rev 2:7, 22:2, and 22:14.). I can reconcile Paradise being another name for the Holy City, but I cannot see how Holy City can be said to be a suburb of Hades or how the tree of life can be found in hell, the realm of the dead.

The problem is that being with Jesus in a "Paradise" TODAY that was still in Hades was not much of a promise, was it? Wasn't David (and his first son from Bathsheba) and Samuel and Abraham, as well as most of the kings of Judah who "slept with their fathers"? Isn't that where Moses and Elijah were?

Why is it a special promise to the thief? May one could argue that instead of being on the "hot" side of Hades, he was allowed into the comfy side. But doesn't this cheapen the promise we all take to heart that we will be with Jesus, and being with Jesus is the best thing that could ever happen?

I am not sure that the question was aimed at me, but all men die, death and hell claim all men once (as hades is the abstract reference for that which does not currently exist but which shall be raised), but not everyone enters into eternal life and the Holy City. As such Christ's promise was indeed valuable and a far greater assurance than that man would have had right to expect without that assurance.

 

[glorydaz]

Why do you say "no"? What form do you think Moses and Elijah were in? Was it a spirit-only form? The disciples didn't seem to think so. Was it a body-less soul form? If you answer, please tell me your source.

I don't know. The scripture doesn't say, so we're left to speculate.

Spoiler

[Luk 9:30 KJV] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
[Luk 9:31 KJV] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
[Luk 9:32 KJV] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
[Luk 9:33 KJV] And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
[Luk 9:34 KJV] While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
[Luk 9:35 KJV] And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Some things in there that suggest they appeared in bodies:
--Jesus *body* was glorified. And Moses and Elijah appeared in a form like Jesus (also glorified). Doesn't it make sense that they appeared in some kind of *body*?
--Vs 32 says "two men stood with him"--the narrator tells us what they saw (or what they thought they saw), and it looked like "men" "standing" (and another account says they were "talking" to Jesus), rather than "spirits" "hovering".
--In vs 33, Peter wants to make 3 tabernacles, one for each. So he must have thought they needed some kind of shelter, perhaps, or maybe Peter wanted to make a shrine for each. Whatever the case, Peter was treating them all the same.

Jesus had not yet put off his body of flesh, but Moses and Elijah had done so long ago. That the Lord's glory was witnessed is probably what John describes in John 1:14

Moses and Elijah had a bodily form just as Samuel did when he came up from the place of the dead to speak to Saul. These are interim spiritual bodies, such as we see in Luke 16....lest we be found naked. 2 Cor. 5:3

 

[way 2 go]

One more thing, @glorydaz. If Moses and Elijah were NOT in a resurrected form, then why did Abraham tell the rich man that Lazarus would have to RISE FROM THE DEAD to go to the man's five brothers? Couldn't he have just done the same thing as Moses and Elijah, whatever it was they were doing?

Abraham did not say "Lazarus would have to rise from the dead"

Abraham said they would not be convinced IF
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Jesus rose from the dead & people are not convinced there is a Hades with fire like Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31

This same line of reasoning could be used to say that Lazarus and the rich man were both cognizant in death, because Lazarus wasn't risen from the dead during this conversations between Abraham and the rich man, nor were they, but they were still talking and seeing and sensing pain (at least the rich man was). I think this is what @way 2 go is getting at.

Moses and Elijah were in spirit form like Samuel

Jesus was the first to rise from the dead bodily

Act_26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

[glorydaz]

That is the reason why (if you talk long enough with folk of that persuasion) you will hear a story that Paradise is a place that moves about, as if it were one of those Recreational Vehicles that parks in the south for six months before heading back north.

Pure snark!

There are many names for the place of the dead.

An in-depth study, instead of snarky condescension, would do you a world of good.

Paradise is another name for Abraham's bosom. We know this because of what Jesus told the thief. All believers had to wait in the heart of the earth until our Lord had ascended into heaven. Then He would move those saints up to that place Paul visited. Unless you discount that as you do everything else you can't see with your eyes.

Jesus correctly told the thief he would be with Him (TODAY) in Paradise. Check out the locale, oh skeptical one.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

I'm thinking it's a waste of time to even discuss this topic with someone who has no concept of the spirit realm.

 

[glorydaz]

One more thing, [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION]. If Moses and Elijah were NOT in a resurrected form, then why did Abraham tell the rich man that Lazarus would have to RISE FROM THE DEAD to go to the man's five brothers? Couldn't he have just done the same thing as Moses and Elijah, whatever it was they were doing?

way 2 go correctly addressed this. I will add that Moses and Elijah were called up for a purpose...just as Samuel was.

This same line of reasoning could be used to say that Lazarus and the rich man were both cognizant in death, because Lazarus wasn't risen from the dead during this conversations between Abraham and the rich man, nor were they, but they were still talking and seeing and sensing pain (at least the rich man was). I think this is what [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] is getting at.

Resurrection applies to the body. Abraham's and Lazarus' bodies were still in the grave. Man is composed of more than just a body.....there is a spiritual aspect of man (soul and spirit) that does not sleep while awaiting the resurrection. This is why Paul says he was willing rather to be, "absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

2 Corinthians 5:6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​

We no longer have to wait in the place of the dead, but go immediately to be with the Lord when we put off this body of flesh. That is a promise, so we trust we will not be left naked while we wait for the resurrection of our body.

 

[way 2 go]

@Rosenritter, @way 2 go, @glorydaz


Don't forget that the story line maintains that "Paradise" and "Abraham's Bosom" are both referring to the section of Hades where Lazarus went. So if the thief on the cross went there "today", and Jesus was in Hades for three days, then it fits.

Spoiler

The problem is that being with Jesus in a "Paradise" TODAY that was still in Hades was not much of a promise, was it? Wasn't David (and his first son from Bathsheba) and Samuel and Abraham, as well as most of the kings of Judah who "slept with their fathers"? Isn't that where Moses and Elijah were?

Why is it a special promise to the thief? May one could argue that instead of being on the "hot" side of Hades, he was allowed into the comfy side. But doesn't this cheapen the promise we all take to heart that we will be with Jesus, and being with Jesus is the best thing that could ever happen?

Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

I disagree where you say paradise is I say it is heaven where God is

God is in "paradise" or heaven the whole time, before Jesus walked the earth , during & after.

Jesus is God & God the father is God
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

so the crucified criminal went to be with God that day.

 

[Rosenritter]

Abraham did not say "Lazarus would have to rise from the dead"

Abraham said they would not be convinced IF
Luk 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Jesus rose from the dead & people are not convinced there is a Hades with fire like Jesus said in Luke 16:19-31




Moses and Elijah were in spirit form like Samuel

Jesus was the first to rise from the dead bodily

Act_26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

John 11:43-44 KJV
(43) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
(44) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

How did you conclude that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead bodily? If Lazarus was bound with graveclothes, thaT sounds like a bodily resurrection to me.

Hebrews 11:32-35 KJV
(32) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
(33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(34) Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


And it sounds like Lazarus wouldn't have been t he first either.

 

[glorydaz]

John 11:43-44 KJV
(43) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
(44) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

How did you conclude that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead bodily? If Lazarus was bound with graveclothes, thaT sounds like a bodily resurrection to me.

Hebrews 11:32-35 KJV
(32) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
(33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(34) Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
(35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


And it sounds like Lazarus wouldn't have been t he first either.

Being raised from the dead is not the same as being resurrected.

 

[Jacob]

Being raised from the dead is not the same as being resurrected.

Interesting. I can say this. Are you just saying it? I also see them as the same.

 

[glorydaz]

Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

I disagree where you say paradise is I say it is heaven where God is

God is in "paradise" or heaven the whole time, before Jesus walked the earth , during & after.

Jesus is God & God the father is God
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

so the crucified criminal went to be with God that day.

Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father. That means Paradise was still below at that time.

 

[glorydaz]

Interesting. I can say this. Are you just saying it? I also see them as the same.

Being resurrected speaks of a spiritual body....not a flesh and blood body.

Just being raised from the dead would be the body being brought back to life.

 

[Jacob]

Being resurrected speaks of a spiritual body....not a flesh and blood body.

Just being raised from the dead would be the body being brought back to life.

A person can be raised from the dead. This is resurrection. Christ was raised never to die again. He is the first-fruits. So what is different with those who are raised from the dead if they die again? As compared with the resurrection if people who rise from the dead then never die again?

 

[glorydaz]

A person can be raised from the dead.

Yep, like Jesus' friend Lazarus.

This is resurrection.

I don't believe it is.

Christ was raised never to die again. He is the first-fruits.

Correct

So what is different with those who are raised from the dead if they die again? As compared with the resurrection if people who rise from the dead then never die again?

Yep. And in the resurrection, they receive a spiritual body.

 

[Jacob]

Yep, like Jesus' fried Lazarus.




I don't believe it is.



Correct



Yep. And in the resurrection, they receive a spiritual body.

Then how do people go to heaven when they die. It is said absent from the body present with the LORD. Or, the Lord.

Jesus' fried Lazarus? I don't follow.

Many people have been raised from the dead throughout time. Some people believe that Lazarus did not die again, but Jesus is the first fruits so I doubt that. Edit is that a wrong interpretation?

 

[glorydaz]

Then how do people go to heaven when they die. It is said absent from the body present with the LORD. Or, the Lord.

Now...... but before the cross, they had to wait in the place of the dead.

Jesus' fried Lazarus? I don't follow.

That was a typo, Jacob. Should have been "friend".

Many people have been raised from the dead throughout time. Some people believe that Lazarus did not die again, but Jesus is the first fruits so I doubt that. Edit is that a wrong interpretation?

You're correct. Lazarus died again. Christ is the firstfruits.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​