ST. JOHN 11:26

[Rosenritter]

:think:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

not outside of scripture Jesus tells us
1 rich man died
2 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
3 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body
4 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit

now
Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades

peoples physical bodies are buried in graves & the Sea not in the fire of Hades

1. Continuing to cite the setting of the parable does not resolve your problem of treating the setting of the parable as if it were actual and factual so that your isolated interpretation of the passage is in direct conflict with every other scripture.

Hell (Hebrew sheol or Greek hades) is not on fire in any other passage of scripture... at least not until the end judgment when it is cast into fire. So either the hell of this parable is hades in the judgment (when it is set on fire) or it is a different hell such as the well-known setting of the Hades of the Greeks.

2. And you are only technically correct, that peoples bodies are not buried in the fire of Hades... because a "fire of Hades" is only a story setting.

On the other hand, we know that Jesus was buried in Hades, as told us in Acts 2:31. And as a bonus, from the quotation we know that the greek hades is the same as the Hebrew sheol.

Acts 2:27, 31 KJV
(27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Psalms 16:10 KJV
(10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

And to dispel any notion that hades does not apply to physical bodies:

Psalms 49:14 KJV
(14) Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Sheep are laid in the grave (sheol, same as hades).... it obviously isn't an otherworldly realm of fire.

Psalms 141:7 KJV
(7) Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth.

Sheol (hades) is spoken of having an opening where physical bones can be scattered.

 

[way 2 go]

1. Continuing to cite the setting of the parable does not resolve your problem of treating the setting of the parable as if it were actual and factual so that your isolated interpretation of the passage is in direct conflict with every other scripture.

Jesus is not giving an interpretation of Hades and no where in scripture dose it say Hades is a fire free zone, so no contradiction.

Hell (Hebrew sheol or Greek hades) is not on fire in any other passage of scripture... at least not until the end judgment when it is cast into fire. So either the hell of this parable is hades in the judgment (when it is set on fire) or it is a different hell such as the well-known setting of the Hades of the Greeks.

Mat 5:22 ... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 18:9 ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mar 9:43 ... to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades : - grave, hell, pit.
hadēs
From G1 ; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
gheh'-en-nah
used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

2. And you are only technically correct, that peoples bodies are not buried in the fire of Hades... because a "fire of Hades" is only a story setting.

On the other hand, we know that Jesus was buried in Hades, as told us in Acts 2:31. And as a bonus, from the quotation we know that the greek hades is the same as the Hebrew sheol.

Acts 2:27, 31 KJV
(27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Psalms 16:10 KJV
(10) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

technically it says soul

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,

Jesus soul went to hell a place for souls

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus is not giving an interpretation of Hades and no where in scripture dose it say Hades is a fire free zone, so no contradiction.

You still haven't resolved the problem that your interpretation of the parable would render Jesus in contradiction to the rest of inspired scripture. Scripture, which I might add, that Jesus himself said "cannot be broken." So if you are correct, then Jesus is wrong one way or the other. When comparing you to Jesus, it's not hard to figure out who's more likely to be wrong on this.

And if the gravedom called sheol or hades was already a fire, why would it need to be cast into fire in the judgment? And more to this question, why would there be a different Greek word gehenna used when it speaks of hell fire?

Mat 5:22 ... but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 18:9 ... rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mar 9:43 ... to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

You might want to check your scripture again. That's not hades nor sheol. That's gehenna. Look in your bible where the hell is described as literal fire; it will say gehenna.

sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades : - grave, hell, pit.
hadēs
From G1 ; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
gheh'-en-nah
used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

technically it says soul

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,

Jesus soul went to hell a place for souls

You can cite Strong's concordance all you like, but you still don't have a scriptural establishment that man is split into a "soul" plus "body" and stored in two separate places. So far it's bald assertion and tireless repetition on your part.

 

[Danoh]

What do you think of this verse? How are we to understand it?

ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

ST. JOHN 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
ST. JOHN 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

By the way, note in John 11:27 what it was an Israelite was required to believe - that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

In other words, this here...

John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

The belief required of THEM was that He was the Christ, the Son of God, the King of Israel.

To assert one of those, was to assert all three of them.

That...was the gospel of...the kingdom, and concerned the Nation Israel.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Believe what gospel? What good news?

That the time was fulfiled, Israel, and the Kingdom of God which was Prophesied unto you, Israel, was now at hand, repent (turn back to the God of your fathers, Israel) and believe this good news.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Jacob]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

By the way, note in John 11:27 what it was an Israelite was required to believe - that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

In other words, this here...

John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

The belief required of THEM was that He was the Christ, the Son of God, the King of Israel.

To assert one of those, was to assert all three of them.

That...was the gospel of...the kingdom, and concerned the Nation Israel.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Believe what gospel? What good news?

That the time was fulfiled, Israel, and the Kingdom of God which was Prophesied unto you, Israel, was now at hand, repent (turn back to the God of your fathers, Israel) and believe this good news.

Acts 17: 11, 12.

Very good.

 

[way 2 go]

You still haven't resolved the problem that your interpretation of the parable would render Jesus in contradiction to the rest of inspired scripture. Scripture, which I might add, that Jesus himself said "cannot be broken." So if you are correct, then Jesus is wrong one way or the other. When comparing you to Jesus, it's not hard to figure out who's more likely to be wrong on this.

And if the gravedom called sheol or hades was already a fire, why would it need to be cast into fire in the judgment? And more to this question, why would there be a different Greek word gehenna used when it speaks of hell fire?



You might want to check your scripture again. That's not hades nor sheol. That's gehenna. Look in your bible where the hell is described as literal fire; it will say gehenna.


You can cite Strong's concordance all you like, but you still don't have a scriptural establishment that man is split into a "soul" plus "body" and stored in two separate places. So far it's bald assertion and tireless repetition on your part.

1 no contradiction
2 why use the word forest when you could just say trees , & Hades has fire Luk 16:24
& gehenna is not always used for fire Mat 23:15
3 hell is in the description of all 3 words Sheol Hades & Gehenna

4 all kinds of evidence ,which you ignore

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Act 2:31 seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption,

not a contradiction of scripture Jesus tells us
1 rich man died
2 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
3 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body
4 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit

scripture tells us
1 Act 2:31 Jesus soul went to Hades

2 Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades

peoples physical bodies are buried in graves & the Sea not in the fire of Hades

 

[Rosenritter]

1 no contradiction

Way 2 Go, when the rest bible says that sheol or hades is a place of silence without knowledge or thought or emotion (let alone lucid conversation) and one piece (and one piece only) makes an allusion to a Hades that does include knowledge and thought and emotion (even lucid conversation) then yes, that is a contradiction.

2 why use the word forest when you could just say trees , & Hades has fire Luk 16:24

https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke 16.24

Citing the very instance that you seek to prove as prove of the validity of the instance is the definition of circular reasoning. You haven't established that Luke 16:24 is speaking of the same hades (or Hades) as the rest of scripture.

& gehenna is not always used for fire Mat 23:15

Matthew 23:15 is the same gehenna used for fire. The context is concerning judgment, and you yourself already acknowledged that gehenna is the hell fire of judgment. Did you forget what you posted a post or two earlier? If you want to contend that this is a non-fiery gehenna it would help if you showed a reason why it should not be applied to fire (since its association with fire is already well established.)

3 hell is in the description of all 3 words Sheol Hades & Gehenna

Yes, what is your point?

4 all kinds of evidence ,which you ignore

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

Again, circular reasoning is when you seek to prove your application using the application itself.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

I am not sure how you think that passage helps your point.

Act 2:31 seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption,

Again, I am not sure how that passage helps your point either.

not a contradiction of scripture Jesus tells us
1 rich man died
2 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
3 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body
4 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit

Scripture tells us that the dead are in silence where the wicked cease from troubling, and that this is applicable for all of humanity. Yes, your interpretation requires contradiction, and would have Jesus contradict previous inspired scripture, and his own statement that the scripture cannot be broken.

Job 3:17-19 KJV
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

scripture tells us
1 Act 2:31 Jesus soul went to Hades

2 Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades

peoples physical bodies are buried in graves & the Sea not in the fire of Hades

That simply tells us that hell is the term used to represent the general state of death.

One more thing... would you be willing to try speaking with proper sentences? Capitalization with both subject and predicate? If this is a serious conversation it helps establish that you are willing to engage rationally.

 

[way 2 go]

Way 2 Go, when the rest bible says that sheol or hades is a place of silence without knowledge or thought or emotion (let alone lucid conversation) and one piece (and one piece only) makes an allusion to a Hades that does include knowledge and thought and emotion (even lucid conversation) then yes, that is a contradiction.

Jesus told us the rich man talked with Abraham in Hades not a contradiction just added information
like a new heaven and a new earth Rev 21:1-27

you are saying Jesus lied I am saying he added information.

Citing the very instance that you seek to prove as prove of the validity of the instance is the definition of circular reasoning. You haven't established that Luke 16:24 is speaking of the same hades (or Hades) as the rest of scripture.

Jesus told us where the rich man went , that is Hades .
Jesus told the truth

The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Matthew 23:15 is the same gehenna used for fire. The context is concerning judgment, and you yourself already acknowledged that gehenna is the hell fire of judgment. Did you forget what you posted a post or two earlier?

you said : Look in your bible where the hell is described as literal fire; it will say gehenna.
i said :gehenna is not always used for fire Mat 23:15

Hades here is described with literal fire
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

If you want to contend that this is a non-fiery gehenna it would help if you showed a reason why it should not be applied to fire (since its association with fire is already well established.)

is there fire in hell , or its other names Hades Gehenna , Sheol ,yes .

Again, circular reasoning is when you seek to prove your application using the application itself.

no

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'

1 rich man died
2 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
3 rich man in Hades in fire & talking, therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body
4 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit
5 Jesus soul went to hell a place for souls not physical bodies Act 2:31

I am not sure how you think that passage helps your point.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades
and peoples physical bodies are buried in graves & the Sea not in the fire of Hades

Again, I am not sure how that passage helps your point either.

Act 2:31 seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption,

Jesus soul went to hell a place for souls

Scripture tells us that the dead are in silence where the wicked cease from troubling, and that this is applicable for all of humanity. Yes, your interpretation requires contradiction, and would have Jesus contradict previous inspired scripture, and his own statement that the scripture cannot be broken.

Job 3:17-19 KJV
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

nice thoughts by Job

was this true ?
Job 7:7 "Remember that my life is a breath; my eye will never again see good.
:nono:
Job 42:10 And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

is this true ?
Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;
:nono:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus told us the rich man talked with Abraham in Hades not a contradiction just added information
like a new heaven and a new earth Rev 21:1-27

you are saying Jesus lied I am saying he added information.

Job said that the wicked cease from troubling in death, that great and small were alike. You claim that Jesus proclaimed that the rich Jews are troubled in torment. That isn't "new information" but would be a rather glaring contradiction.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (sheol), whither thou goest.

No knowledge nor wisdom (as in none at all) compared to some knowledge and wisdom would be a contradiction, not "new information." Derf has acknowledged this as well, and your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the obvious problem created by your special interpretation doesn't leave your argument in a good light. It seems more like that you've chosen a particular party line and would defend it to the death, against God Himself if need be.

is this true ?
Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;
:nono:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them

Considering that Job himself prophesied both the return of Christ and his own personal resurrection, his obvious meaning is that they that descend into death do not come up on their own, or of any power short of divine resurrection. I don't suppose you are familiar with any of this?

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

That's the part that references Revelation. Are you done trying to discredit Job as uninspired or in error by ripping him out of context? The scripture cannot be broken, Job both a prophet and highly praised by God, and that book called by his name is scripture, and also in agreement with the rest of scripture.

 

[Derf]

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades
and peoples physical bodies are buried in graves & the Sea not in the fire of Hades

I don't understand how you can make this statement, "Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there has to be people in Hades"

Why doesn't the same verse, using the same words, mean that "there has (sic) to be people in the sea"? And when we say "people in the sea", we should be consistent to say that there are disembodied souls in the sea, since that is the meaning you are using for the same words when applied to Hades.

If the same words used in the same manner in the same verse don't mean the same thing, there is immediate contradiction, except if there is some literary device that is being used by the author to convey a deeper meaning. I don't see that here.

nice thoughts by Job

was this true ?
Job 7:7 "Remember that my life is a breath; my eye will never again see good.
:nono:
Job 42:10 And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

I think you're trying to discredit one statement of Job by his other statement. But Job 7:11 explains Job 7:7:
[Job 7:11] Also I -- I withhold not my mouth -- I speak in the distress of my spirit, I talk in the bitterness of my soul.
In other words, he admits that he isn't being logical in his speech, nor speaking in faith. Thus, his words in this passage should not be taken for truth, but for his expression of anguish.

 

[way 2 go]

I don't understand how you can make this statement, "Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there has to be people in Hades"

Why doesn't the same verse, using the same words, mean that "there has (sic) to be people in the sea"? And when we say "people in the sea", we should be consistent to say that there are disembodied souls in the sea, since that is the meaning you are using for the same words when applied to Hades.

If the same words used in the same manner in the same verse don't mean the same thing, there is immediate contradiction, except if there is some literary device that is being used by the author to convey a deeper meaning. I don't see that here.

so we have car , mule & elephant in a sentence , does that make the three all cars or all animals or modes of transportation.

what I do know is
Jesus soul went to Hades Act 2:31
the rich man soul went to the fire in Hades Luk 16:22-23

the sea has dead people in it & Death has spirits in it

I think you're trying to discredit one statement of Job by his other statement. But Job 7:11 explains Job 7:7:
[Job 7:11] Also I -- I withhold not my mouth -- I speak in the distress of my spirit, I talk in the bitterness of my soul.
In other words, he admits that he isn't being logical in his speech, nor speaking in faith. Thus, his words in this passage should not be taken for truth, but for his expression of anguish.

i would not use Job as my source for an explanation of sheol as you pointed out Job 7:11

& 4 chapters of rebuke

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

 

[way 2 go]

Job said that the wicked cease from troubling in death, that great and small were alike. You claim that Jesus proclaimed that the rich Jews are troubled in torment. That isn't "new information" but would be a rather glaring contradiction.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (sheol), whither thou goest.

No knowledge nor wisdom (as in none at all) compared to some knowledge and wisdom would be a contradiction, not "new information." Derf has acknowledged this as well, and your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the obvious problem created by your special interpretation doesn't leave your argument in a good light. It seems more like that you've chosen a particular party line and would defend it to the death, against God Himself if need be.



Considering that Job himself prophesied both the return of Christ and his own personal resurrection, his obvious meaning is that they that descend into death do not come up on their own, or of any power short of divine resurrection. I don't suppose you are familiar with any of this?

Job 19:25-27 KJV
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

That's the part that references Revelation. Are you done trying to discredit Job as uninspired or in error by ripping him out of context? The scripture cannot be broken, Job both a prophet and highly praised by God, and that book called by his name is scripture, and also in agreement with the rest of scripture.

job contradicted himself as shown to us by you

Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

once you die then you are judged therefore there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol .fate is sealed.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

will you put Jesus in the wrong ,will you condemn Jesus that you maybe right
Job 40:8 Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
Jesus told the truth in Luk 16:19-31
but you say Jesus is wrong.

 

[Rosenritter]

i would not use Job as my source for an explanation of sheol as you pointed out Job 7:11

& 4 chapters of rebuke

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

I guess Job was wrong about the resurrection and coming of the Redeemer upon the earth, eh?

 

[glorydaz]

i would not use Job as my source for an explanation of sheol as you pointed out Job 7:11

I guess Job was wrong about the resurrection and coming of the Redeemer upon the earth, eh?

I'm thinking if Rosenritter took the time to read what was written, these silly surmises wouldn't keep occurring. :think:

Perhaps it's just a way to start arguments....er, I mean discussions.

 

[Rosenritter]

job contradicted himself as shown to us by you

Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job did not contradict himself, rather you removed the passage from its context and alleged contradiction (this tactic is used often by atheists that attack biblical integrity.) Obviously, "they that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more" is not meant to deny the resurrection of the dead, the same physical resurrection before God that Job preaches later in the same book.

Ironically if you applied that same technique consistently you would also disqualify the testimony of Jesus. For example, was the maid dead? Matthew 9:24, "Give place: The maid is not dead, but sleepeth" and Luke 8:52 "Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth." Or would he give the wicked generation a sign or not? Mark 8:12 "verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation" compared with Matthew 12:39 "and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

Plainly speaking, your argument that "Job contradicts himself" seems rather contrived, less than consistent, and not entirely honest and/or objective.

once you die then you are judged therefore there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol .fate is sealed.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

will you put Jesus in the wrong ,will you condemn Jesus that you maybe right
Job 40:8 Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
Jesus told the truth in Luk 16:19-31
but you say Jesus is wrong.

I am having trouble deciphering your English, but this seems like more of the same of what you have put forth before: take the parable, assign it a literal meaning, and accuse anyone who demonstrates that a literal interpretation of the parable creates contradiction with every other biblical prophet of accusing Jesus.

Again, that's not a very honest or objective response.

 

[way 2 go]

Job did not contradict himself, rather you removed the passage from its context and alleged contradiction (this tactic is used often by atheists that attack biblical integrity.) Obviously, "they that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more" is not meant to deny the resurrection of the dead, the same physical resurrection before God that Job preaches later in the same book.

I guess Job was wrong about the resurrection and coming of the Redeemer upon the earth, eh?

Job 7:11 Job was sometimes wrong when he spoke from his anguish

was this true ?
Job 7:7 "Remember that my life is a breath; my eye will never again see good.
Job 7:8 The eye of him who sees me will behold me no more; while your eyes are on me, I shall be gone.
:nono:
Job 42:10 And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

and contradicted himself too
Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

Ironically if you applied that same technique consistently you would also disqualify the testimony of Jesus. For example, was the maid dead? Matthew 9:24, "Give place: The maid is not dead, but sleepeth" and Luke 8:52 "Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth." Or would he give the wicked generation a sign or not? Mark 8:12 "verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation" compared with Matthew 12:39 "and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"

:nono:
the maid was dead & referred to as sleeping both times

Jesus said there shall no sign be given both times & added information in Mat 12:39

just like Jesus added information in Luk 16:19-31

Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Plainly speaking, your argument that "Job contradicts himself" seems rather contrived, less than consistent, and not entirely honest and/or objective.

Job contradicted himself it is so simple a child could understand

I am having trouble deciphering your English, but this seems like more of the same of what you have put forth before: take the parable, assign it a literal meaning, and accuse anyone who demonstrates that a literal interpretation of the parable creates contradiction with every other biblical prophet of accusing Jesus.

you have not demonstrated a literal interpretation of Luk 16:19-31
creates a contradiction

1.we all know Hades exists

2.Jesus Soul went to Hades Act 2:31

3. rich man's soul went to Hades & the fiery side Luk 16:19-31

4. people souls will be raised from Hades Rev 20:13

 

[way 2 go]

I'm thinking if Rosenritter took the time to read what was written, these silly surmises wouldn't keep occurring. :think:

Perhaps it's just a way to start arguments....er, I mean discussions.

:chuckle:

 

[Rosenritter]

Job 7:11 Job was sometimes wrong when he spoke from his anguish

was this true ?
Job 7:7 "Remember that my life is a breath; my eye will never again see good.
Job 7:8 The eye of him who sees me will behold me no more; while your eyes are on me, I shall be gone.
:nono:
Job 42:10 And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

Just as true as when God foretold the premature death of Hezekiah... but then changed his mind. Or when he told Moses to stand aside so that he would destroy all Israel... and again, changed his mind. The expression of conditional intent or emotions does not fall into the category of "correct" or "incorrect."

and contradicted himself too
Job 7:9 As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;

Yawn. You might as well chastise God for speaking in the same fashion in Isaiah, where he says that the army quenched in the sea shall not rise.

Isaiah 43:16-17 KJV
(16) Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;
(17) Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.


Are you done trying to twist words of scripture out of context?

:nono:
the maid was dead & referred to as sleeping both times

Ah, so you are saying that Jesus lied? Jesus plainly said that the maid slept. You're utterly inconsistent Way 2 Go.

Jesus said there shall no sign be given both times & added information in Mat 12:39

just like Jesus added information in Luk 16:19-31

Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

So why are you inconsistent by not allowing this same consideration to Job? When Job expresses emotion at the thought of death and dying, that they that go down are not going to rise up by themselves, and then later speaks prophetically about the resurrection of the flesh and the Redeemer of Mankind on the earth, why do you not also acknowledge the context of each statement and allow that he is now adding additional information?

Your argument doesn't appear to be very honest.

Job contradicted himself it is so simple a child could understand

See, that's the dishonesty that I'm talking about.

you have not demonstrated a literal interpretation of Luk 16:19-31
creates a contradiction

1.we all know Hades exists
2.Jesus Soul went to Hades Act 2:31
3. rich man's soul went to Hades & the fiery side Luk 16:19-31
4. people souls will be raised from Hades Rev 20:13

1. "Hades" exists in Greek folklore.
2. The soul of Jesus was kept in hell (hades) not the "Hades" of the Greeks or the "Vahalla" of the Vikings or any other version.
3. A hypothetical rich man within a parable, yes.
4,. Raised from death, and hell (hades, sheol) and the sea. Do you allege that Death and the Sea are places of mystical existence?

The contradiction dear Go, is when you attempt to substitute the "Hades" of myth and parable for hell (hades, sheol) as if they were freely interchangeable. While "Hades" has all sorts of fantastical happenings by its nature, death and hell of scripture (hades, sheol) is a place of darkness and silence, not light and casual conversations, that the dead are without thoughts or memory or being.

No evidence of contradiction? Must I bludgeon you again?

Psalms 94:17 KJV
(17) Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Psalms 115:17 KJV
(17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 10:20-22 KJV
(20) Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
(21) Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
(22) A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

Psalms 146:2-4 KJV
(2) While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
(3) Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalms 6:4-5 KJV
(4) Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
(5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Yes, certainly your forced interpretation creates a whole stack of contradiction, because the scriptures that God (Jesus) himself wrote were not silent as to the nature of death.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

... not to mention how it is described thereafter.

2 Peter 2:17 KJV
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

 

[Derf]

so we have car , mule & elephant in a sentence , does that make the three all cars or all animals or modes of transportation.

It depends on the context of the sentence. If we say "They traveled by car, mule, and elephant", it's pretty obvious that it is modes of transportation ("travel"). Same if we say "They traveled by car, and they traveled by mule and elephant." There may be something different about cars, but "traveled" links all three together still.

So in our verse, if all three are "giving up the dead that are in them", then it's fairly obvious that there are "dead" in them that are being given up. If you want to propose a different kind of dead, you need to explain why you think they are different. I think you've done that below, so let's continue

what I do know is
Jesus soul went to Hades Act 2:31
the rich man soul went to the fire in Hades Luk 16:22-23

Neither of those verses say anything about souls going to Hades. Read them carefully. But even if they did, as some verses do in the OT talking about Sheol, what do they mean by souls going down to Sheol/Hades? Are all the uses of something going to Sheol/Hades consistent in the usage? If a city goes down to Sheol, does that mean all the souls from that city are there? Does that mean souls from other cities are NOT there?

the sea has dead people in it & Death has spirits in it

Where is the distinction drawn in the verse? I don't see it. This is an extrapolation of the verse, not an interpretation.

Are you suggesting that the Sea contains the bodies, "Death" contains the spirits, and "Hades" contains the souls? If so, why did the Israelites worry so much about where they would be "buried", if their bodies would eventually find their way to the sea. (Maybe the "Dead Sea"??? )

i would not use Job as my source for an explanation of sheol as you pointed out Job 7:11

& 4 chapters of rebuke

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
Job 38:18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

I agree, in part. But then can we trust Job for anything, or do we throw out anything that isn't spoken by God? I think we need to discern which parts of Job's speech are driven by his own foolishness in his anguish, and which parts are driven by the hope he places in God. Fortunately Job gave us some clue in Job 7:11. You've shown a couple more from ch 38. We should look for other clues, too.

Here are a couple:
[Job 42:7 KJV] And it was [so], that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me [the thing that is] right, as my servant Job [hath].
[Job 42:8 KJV] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job.

So some of what Job said was right, despite the obvious rebuke of the verses you cited from ch 38.

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you suggesting that the Sea contains the bodies, "Death" contains the spirits, and "Hades" contains the souls? If so, why did the Israelites worry so much about where they would be "buried", if their bodies would eventually find their way to the sea. (Maybe the "Dead Sea"??? )

The "Dead" sea! Ha! Ha ha ha! Get it? "Dead" as in ... oh never mind.