Show me the good news

[oatmeal]

You show an extraordinary combination of high regard for you own opinion and an extreme lack of knowledge.

Of course Peter calls them stranger, they were ALL in foreign lands (as he clearly spells out in verse one). Not too hard to understand.

Once AGAIN, Paul NEVER even ONCE refers to believers in the dispensation of the grace of God as sheep. But no doubt, that is hard for you to understand.

Regarding Peter's reference to "elect":

Isa 45:4 KJV For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
​

This the 'elect' that he is writing to... you know, the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

Your thoughts on "Christ denier" puzzle me.

Rather than tangentilize this thread, I should start a thread where you could explain what that means to you.

 

[fzappa13]

Originally Posted by fzappa13
That is because that was the one verse you apparently failed to see. The people that Peter was addressing were in times past not a people but now are. In times past Israel was a people. This means that this is not whom Peter was addressing. The people whom he was addressing were only then a people through their shared faith in the risen Christ.

The "people that were not a people but now are" is referring to the "little flock". They were the ones that Jesus gave the nation after He took it away from the unfaithful leadership.

I would suggest that this nation is not to be identified geographically or racially just yet. It is that nation that will be born in an instant.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.


When the Lord gathers His it will be both Jew and Gentile alike. Best get used to living with them. If you are indeed the Lord's it is your and their common eventual fate.

See Matthew 21:43 and Luke 12:32.

Ah, more scripture. Good, I like scripture. Let's have a look:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

This verse is from a passage that finds Jesus speaking to the Chief Scribes and Pharisees concerning their rejection of Him. That aside, it is interesting to see what He says concerning the kingdom of God. To begin with, a student of scripture will note that “the kingdom of God” is always referenced in the singular leading one to believe that there is only one. In this verse membership in that kingdom and that nation is contingent upon one bringing forth the fruits thereof. No fruits, no kingdom. Unless you think there is more than one kingdom you were just told the price of admission to the only one there is … and it is not dependent upon your racial heritage or your doctrinal allegiance.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.


Luke 12:32 finds Jesus no longer addressing the scribes and Pharisees but, instead, addressing the multitudes. He admonishes them to seek the kingdom of God. He goes on to suggest they sell what they have and give to the poor. Not a very popular pastime in this day and age. He also suggests that “where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Truer words were never spoken. What we value we clutch to our bosom and is evidenced by what we say and do. Once again we hear reference to THE kingdom of God. There is only one and, once again, we see Jesus offering the price of admission. A price few are willing to pay. The question you should ask yourself is, why would He council others what they should do in seeking this Kingdom when some hold it is only necessary to “believe”? … that is unless you think there is a different set of rules for the Jews to make it into the kingdom than for the gentiles. Remember the parable of the rich young ruler as well as that of the pearl of great price.

They were the faithful ones of Israel while the "official" leadership was not. Peter did not become the apostle of the Gentiles. That was the responsibility that God gave to Paul

While I would agree that Jesus held his harshest criticism for the religious leaders that should have recognized Him and Paul was indeed named an Apostle to the Gentiles I would hasten to add that all the Apostles shared the same faith, the same hope, the same Savior and the wise would do well to hear them all for they all worked toward the same end and suffered the same fate … that being to bear witness of the gospel of Christ and to die for their efforts.

Originally Posted by fzappa13
You state this but Peter does not. In fact the meaning of the word in the Greek is also "foreigner". The common meaning of this word does not agree with your assertion. Again we circle back to the fact that none save the House of Judah can point to their heritage with any certainty at this time. Your interpretation would have Peter talking to a people that were totally unaware he was talking to them.

So you think that a person from ISRAEL that is residing in ANOTHER country is not a STRANGER and a FOREIGNER in that country?

You're just too confused.

When Saul persecuted the house of God, they ran away to other countries. The twelve apostles for the twelve tribes stayed in Jerusalem. It's not hard to understand. See Acts 8:1.

It is you who are confused. Scripture reveals that the twelve tribes were scattered long before Paul's day. Paul persecuted those who believed in Christ and there is no record that he distinguished between Jew and Gentile in this effort. Neither does Christ distinguish between Jew and Gentile as it concerns the bestowal of grace through faith in His sacrifice.

Originally Posted by fzappa13
You've had two different people point out to you the erroneous nature of arguing for a definition of the New Testament Elect using O.T. passages and you ignore the verse offered that makes this error plain. Why? There are plenty more that we could examine if you like.

It has the SAME meaning regardless of what you think about language and covenants. Peter consistently quoted from the OT about Israels role and parallels those in his epistles. The body of Christ is NOT a "royal priesthood" or a "holy nation".

Indeed all who wrote in the New Testament referred to the old as well they should … they had the same author. That said the question was “who are the elect?” It would appear that you suggest they were Israel to the exclusion of the Gentiles. I would beg to differ.

Read Romans 11 … the whole thing.

He never stopped being one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes. Jesus said that Peter and the eleven will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of Israel and Jesus does NOT lie.

This is true … and the Word of God also says this:

Zec 8: 20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


BTW, congrats on an invective free post.

 

[fzappa13]

I have not followed this thread closely, so if she ducked some, I would not know. However, I did reply to your post because it seemed your teachers had not as a complete education as they could have.

I may be interested in those verses you say she ducked.

Let me know a couple ( not all) of the post numbers, I will look at them.

I'm not going to chew your food for you. If you are too lazy or too busy to read the thread, so be it. Please stop bothering those of us who aren't. It's inconsiderate.

 

[Right Divider]

I would suggest that this nation is not to be identified geographically or racially just yet. It is that nation that will be born in an instant.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

When the Lord gathers His it will be both Jew and Gentile alike. Best get used to living with them. If you are indeed the Lord's it is your and their common eventual fate.

A couple of things for you:
First, Gentiles always had the option to join with Israel. That's nothing new.
Secondly, the body of Christ is NOT a nation and never will be.

When God is dealing with Israel (i.e., not during the dispensation of the grace of God), there are TWO types of Gentiles: those that bless Israel and those that curse Israel (Gen 12:3).

God says that He will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.

In the body of Christ there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek (not even male nor female, Gal 3:28). That's different.

Ah, more scripture. Good, I like scripture. Let's have a look:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

This verse is from a passage that finds Jesus speaking to the Chief Scribes and Pharisees concerning their rejection of Him. That aside, it is interesting to see what He says concerning the kingdom of God. To begin with, a student of scripture will note that “the kingdom of God” is always referenced in the singular leading one to believe that there is only one. In this verse membership in that kingdom and that nation is contingent upon one bringing forth the fruits thereof. No fruits, no kingdom. Unless you think there is more than one kingdom you were just told the price of admission to the only one there is … and it is not dependent upon your racial heritage or your doctrinal allegiance.

Yes, eventually both God's programs for heaven and earth will be joined into one in Christ (Eph 1:10). That time is not now.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 12:32 finds Jesus no longer addressing the scribes and Pharisees but, instead, addressing the multitudes. He admonishes them to seek the kingdom of God. He goes on to suggest they sell what they have and give to the poor. Not a very popular pastime in this day and age. He also suggests that “where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” Truer words were never spoken. What we value we clutch to our bosom and is evidenced by what we say and do. Once again we hear reference to THE kingdom of God. There is only one and, once again, we see Jesus offering the price of admission. A price few are willing to pay. The question you should ask yourself is, why would He council others what they should do in seeking this Kingdom when some hold it is only necessary to “believe”? … that is unless you think there is a different set of rules for the Jews to make it into the kingdom than for the gentiles. Remember the parable of the rich young ruler as well as that of the pearl of great price.

Jesus told all of His disciples to sell all that they had (Luke 12:33.... the very next verse). There was a unique reason for that.

While I would agree that Jesus held his harshest criticism for the religious leaders that should have recognized Him and Paul was indeed named an Apostle to the Gentiles I would hasten to add that all the Apostles shared the same faith, the same hope, the same Savior and the wise would do well to hear them all for they all worked toward the same end and suffered the same fate … that being to bear witness of the gospel of Christ and to die for their efforts.

The twelve never fully understood the reason for Jesus' death on the cross and didn't find out the details until God revealed them to and through Paul.

It is you who are confused. Scripture reveals that the twelve tribes were scattered long before Paul's day. Paul persecuted those who believed in Christ and there is no record that he distinguished between Jew and Gentile in this effort. Neither does Christ distinguish between Jew and Gentile as it concerns the bestowal of grace through faith in His sacrifice.

Israel has been scattered a few times.
As of Acts 8:1, they (the 12) stayed in Jerusalem. They were to convert Israel first, but Israel refused.

Indeed all who wrote in the New Testament referred to the old as well they should … they had the same author. That said the question was “who are the elect?” It would appear that you suggest they were Israel to the exclusion of the Gentiles. I would beg to differ.

Read Romans 11 … the whole thing.

Read Romans... the whole thing.

This is true … and the Word of God also says this:

Zec 8: 20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Indeed, when the earthly kingdom comes (Matt 6:10), Israel will be leading the Gentiles.

BTW, congrats on an invective free post.

Thanks, you too.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Peter is ONE of the TWELVE apostles that will judge the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. His message was written TO THEM and FOR THEM.

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

Here Paul is calling the church of God a flock.


Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


Now do you suppose he is talking about a flock of birds?

I only asked because of yer obsession with flying away.

Now, if you cant prove he isn't calling the church of God sheep, well......

Enjoy yer crow. :wazzup:

 

[Bright Raven]

This is the good news;

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

1 Now brothers, I want to clarify for you the gospel I proclaimed to you; you received it and have taken your stand on it.
2 You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you—unless you believed for no purpose.
3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:

that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,

 

[disturbo]

Right Divider said,

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

Well Paul wrote Romans...

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And I think Paul wrote Hebrews.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And you call yourself Right Divider!

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Right Divider said,

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

Well Paul wrote Romans...

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And I think Paul wrote Hebrews.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And you call yourself Right Divider!

Looks like he needs to add his own name to his confused list. :shocked:

 

[disturbo]

Looks like he needs to add his own name to his confused list. :shocked:

I'm trying hard to get onto the other categories but to no avail. I haven't given up. The way I look at it is my name is written in RD's Book of Life.

 

[Right Divider]

Right Divider said,

Well Paul wrote Romans...

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And I think Paul wrote Hebrews.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

And you call yourself Right Divider!

No, Paul did not write Hebrews.... Wrong Divider.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and HEBREWS is ALL about Israel.

 

[disturbo]

No, Paul did not write Hebrews.... Wrong Divider.

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and HEBREWS is ALL about Israel.

Did you notice what I said? I said I THINK Paul was the author of Hebrews. But Paul is the author of Romans which debunks Right Dividers claim that...

Paul never ONCE calls US sheep or Jesus OUR shepherd.

But of course, you won't confront that major blunder of yours!

 

[disturbo]

Why do I THINK Paul wrote Hebrews?

One of many examples is the way Paul words things. In Paul's writings he used the words "much more" about 15 times. The author of Hebrews also uses the same wording...

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[Right Divider]

Did you notice what I said? I said I THINK Paul was the author of Hebrews. But Paul is the author of Romans which debunks Right Dividers claim that...

But of course, you won't confront that major blunder of yours!

No, Paul never ONCE calls a member of the body of Christ a sheep.

The ONE reference that you are TRYING to use against that is a QUOTE from the OT regarding Israelites.

 

[Wednesday Addams]

Whether Paul authored Hebrews or not, does it make a difference to what you believe in regards to Hebrews as divine scripture, by which it's words are true? Because you guys believe that books that made it to the New Testament are inspired, right?

 

[disturbo]

No, Paul never ONCE calls a member of the body of Christ a sheep.

The ONE reference that you are TRYING to use against that is a QUOTE from the OT regarding Israelites.

It doesn't matter if it is or is not an OT quote, Paul, the author of Romans said,

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

You can remain in denial for just so long and after a while you begin to look like an idiot. That's what you've chosen.

AH! Psalms and Jeremiah. Hey What do you know. You got something right!

 

[Right Divider]

Why do I THINK Paul wrote Hebrews?

One of many examples is the way Paul words things. In Paul's writings he used the words "much more" about 15 times. The author of Hebrews also uses the same wording...

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

That kind of "evidence" is completely unconvincing and would be thrown out of court.

Paul signs all of his epistles:

2Th 3:17 KJV The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.
​

Rom 1:1 KJV Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Co 1:1 KJV Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Co 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Eph 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Php 1:1 KJV Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Col 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

1Th 1:1 KJV Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:1 KJV Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2Ti 1:1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Tit 1:1 KJV Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Phm 1:1 KJV Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
​

Then we have HEBREWS:

Heb 1:1 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
​

I'd say that this is FAR better evidence that Paul did NOT write Hebrews.

 

[disturbo]

Hebrews

The letter closes with the words "Grace be with you all" (Hebrews 13:25), which is the same closing found in each of Paul's known letters (see Romans 16:20; 1 Corinthians 16:23; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Galatians 6:18; Ephesians 6:24; Philippians 4:23; Colossians 4:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:28; 2 Thessalonians 3:18; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 4:22; Titus 3:15; and Philemon 25). However, it should be noted that Peter (1 Peter 5:14; 2 Peter 3:18) used similar—though not identical—closings. Possibly that it was simply customary to close letters like this with the words "Grace be with you all" during this time period.

http://www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.html

 

[Wednesday Addams]

Whether Paul authored Hebrews or not, does it make a difference to what you believe in regards to Hebrews as divine scripture, by which it's words are true? Because you guys believe that books that made it to the New Testament are inspired, right?

Can someone give an answer to this? Thanks.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No, Paul never ONCE calls a member of the body of Christ a sheep.

The ONE reference that you are TRYING to use against that is a QUOTE from the OT regarding Israelites.

Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



Looks like you got sum splainin' to do.

 

[Nanja]

Acts 20:28 KJVA


28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



Looks like you got sum splainin' to do.

Yup!

~~~~~