Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[drbrumley]

I've been saying all along that it is a heart problem, not a flag problem.

But then you came along and tried to make a case about the 'location' of the flag being OK except on government property.
This guys flag wasn't on government property, so why should his having a flag on private property even be a problem?

Maybe the State of South Carolina made him do it?

 

[Tambora]

Ah ... you're giving him the benefit of the doubt ... well, good for you.

Sometimes.

 

[Tambora]

Maybe the State of South Carolina made him do it?

Ahh, of course. :duh: The State made him do it!!!! :reals:

 

[fzappa13]

State of mind?

 

[tetelestai]

Darby.

Dispensationalism and Racism

 

[rainee]

And I'm saying it isn't an either/or. The flag was born to represent an evil and it resurfaced in the service of a second. No flag causes a people to do evil, but it can reflect their will to do just that. And so the case of the Confederate flag.


No, I differentiated between the private right to property and its use and the public display of that flag over a seat of government.


...:

I have said y'all are killing me so many times now that I'm afraid I will have to go ahead and die just so you can know how very much this thinking and talking bothers me.
So Town, NO, the flag was not born to represent evil, and YOU know it. Or should. It was born to differentiate clearly or at least more clearly between two sides in battle. And I remind you sir YOU ARE THE FIRST ONE I think to point out it was a battle flag.

Now it came to be known for more and mean more than just being the other side of the battle in the Union's War to save the Nation, but that is it. So please please please freaking stop this smear job!

Same here. That said, I have zero patience for any apologists who defend this flag or the culture it represents. It's a symbol of a larger problem and a symptom of a sickness I can't abide or respect.

The 'sickness' is something you have let creep into your heart and then removed any wiggle-room.

I have a Confederate flag.
If by having that flag, you see me as racist against blacks; then your mind does indeed have a sickness.
It's your heart problem, not mine.

Tam,
I do not have a flag and never did. But I swanee I have thought lately how I might find five or seven of them and how I could bedeck myself with them all over my body!

This is sidestepping my question. And I don't think some symbols are inherently stereotyped, either. Some are beyond redemption.

Granite, I failed to quote your post that mentions not only the Nazi flag but also buring crosses and the hammer and sickle, but I hope I remember it correctly.

Anyway, Do you really want to know something about the Confederate Flag?
Because it is Not like those other symbols...
The others - every single one of them - were symbols of aggressors.

Don't shake that hard head of yours yet, please.
The Confederate Flag was always a symbol of defiance and pride.

You know what they say about the things that bother you most? That they are the very things you need to look inside and see if you need to deal with them.

Defiant pride.

 

[Granite]

The others - every single one of them - were symbols of aggressors.

That makes zero difference.

The Confederate Flag was always a symbol of defiance and pride.

So what?

The words defiance, pride, and heritage are--as I already said--not synonymous with virtue. You can be defiantly proud of some really vile filth...such as white supremacy and the institution of slavery. I don't give a hoot in hell what neo-Confeds or actual Confederates were or are defiantly proud of--because the source of their pride was and is racism and high treason.

 

[Town Heretic]

...NO, the flag was not born to represent evil, and YOU know it. Or should.

Sorry, but that's what I call the institution of slavery practiced in America.

It was born to differentiate clearly or at least more clearly between two sides in battle. And I remind you sir YOU ARE THE FIRST ONE I think to point out it was a battle flag.

Right. A battle flag for armies fighting for the institution of slavery. Go back and read the post where I set out state declarations as they left the Union. They weren't ambiguous about what the issue was.

So please please please freaking stop this smear job!

Any attempt to alter their own words to fit a more noble agenda is precisely that, so you need to understand what you're really fighting against and what you honestly aren't.

 

[rainee]

Sorry, but that's what I call the institution of slavery practiced in America.


Right. A battle flag for armies fighting for the institution of slavery. Go back and read the post where I set out state declarations as they left the Union. They weren't ambiguous about what the issue was.


Any attempt to alter their own words to fit a more noble agenda is precisely that, so you need to understand what you're really fighting against and what you honestly aren't.

Okay!
So your problem is tied up with what people said one hundred and fifty years ago?

The north stopped their slave ownership and then slavery was abolished for all the United States.
Nothing more righteous than ex slave owners as the yanks frequently
demonstrate.

Are you saying their beliefs or thoughts back then infect us today - did the killer want slavery?
No.

Then no more about slavery.

The yanks believed some were missing links in the evolution of man. Europeans also did.
So explain racism again?

 

[rainee]

That makes zero difference.

What do you mean zero difference?
Symbols, songs, manifestos that are there to claim they are aggressively seeking to kill and destroy can be quite disturbing.

Just think about "The Battle Hymn of The Republic"

"Howe submitted the lyrics she wrote to The Atlantic Monthly, and it was first published in the February, 1862, issue of the magazine.


First published version
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.


I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps,
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps:
His day is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His day is marching on.

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel:
"As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal";
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Since God is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Since God is marching on.

He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! Be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Our God is marching on.

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me.
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
While God is marching on."

The words defiance, pride, and heritage are--as I already said--not synonymous with virtue.

True.

You can be defiantly proud of some really vile filth...
such as _____supremacy....

As if you are not talking down as if you are supreme?


Slavery was in the United States, the north stopped first. The invention of combines helped most all crop growers but one.
The north could afford to let people go free. But to keep people in Human Zoos for years after hardly seems to indicate they saw people as people or equal.

 

[Granite]

What do you mean zero difference?
Symbols, songs, manifestos that are there to claim they are aggressively seeking to kill and destroy can be quite disturbing.

Agreed. Symbols have power and often intrinsic meaning.

As if you are not talking down as if you are supreme?

No.

The north could afford to let people go free.

Even if this were so it doesn't give the south a pass at all. At best, you're saying they fought to the death to preserve a way of life that rendered them morally bankrupt if not economically (at first).

 

[rainee]

Agreed. Symbols have power and often intrinsic meaning.

I do not know what power means above or intrinsic -- so I may not be ably to trust an agreement with you on this until you explain whatever contorted meaning you have hidden in there.

Even if this were so it doesn't give the south a pass at all. At best, you're saying they fought to the death to preserve a way of life that rendered them morally bankrupt if not economically (at first).

The South may have had too many believers, Granite. The Lord may do this - as I tried to tell Tomo. When His are in the wrong because they see no other way to go He may feel they are not trusting Him or walking close enough to Him.
As I said humbly before and now I think He stopped slavery.
As for morally bankrupt I worry about the Northeast now, today. They are so far from a Christian foundation - maybe even further than they were back then. And the West. Sigh....


Ps I do often wonder if Lincoln was a believer. He may have been

 

[Granite]

I do not know what power means above or intrinsic -- so I may not be ably to trust an agreement with you on this until you explain whatever contorted meaning you have hidden in there.

I ain't speaking in code.

The South may have had too many believers, Granite.

:rotfl:

So their real problem was just having way too many Christians.

Unreal.

 

[fzappa13]

Agreed. Symbols have power and often intrinsic meaning.

So, how about yours? ... your avatar that is...

 

[Granite]

So, how about yours? ... your avatar that is...

Yeah...how about it.

 

[TomO]

Yeah...how about it.

I still say this one suits you better. lain:

 

[drbrumley]

Afterthoughts on the Lowering of the Confederate Battle Flag in Columbia


By Paul Gottfried
The Unz Review


Among neoconservatives, the repugnance for Southern white society and culture has long been evident, and it seems that one encounters escalating effusions of hate from neoconservative celebrities that were it directed against their own ethnicity would evoke understandable outrage. Just the other day the latest neocon candidate for the title “hating Southerners the most” Jeff Jacoby ranted in all the usual venues of conservatism, inc. that the Battle Flag banner “is the emblem of the most poisonous ideologies in our national history.” Jacoby fulminated against “the hatefulness of the proposition” for which Southern soldiers “were prepared to kill or be killed.” One wonders whether authorized “conservative” sources would publish the invective of a Palestinian whose family had been expelled from their land by Israeli soldiers if he offered a similar rant against the Israeli flag. Just wondering!

:up:

 

[Granite]

Among neoconservatives, the repugnance for Southern white society and culture has long been evident, and it seems that one encounters escalating effusions of hate from neoconservative celebrities that were it directed against their own ethnicity would evoke understandable outrage.

Must explain why Dubya affected a southern persona despite being born in Connecticut and educated at Yale: he was just too plain dim to realize otherwise. Also explains why neo-cons find support strongest in the south: It's all a long, elaborate...ruse. Or con. Or something. Also, Ted Nugent's an innocent victim.

Just the other day the latest neocon candidate for the title “hating Southerners the most” Jeff Jacoby ranted in all the usual venues of conservatism, inc. that the Battle Flag banner “is the emblem of the most poisonous ideologies in our national history.”

White supremacy, slavery, and a war that resulted in over half a million dead. Uh...the man may have a bit of a point there.

Jacoby fulminated against “the hatefulness of the proposition” for which Southern soldiers “were prepared to kill or be killed.”

Such as the Cornerstone Speech?

Funny: So many of you self-styled conservatives insist on taking the founding fathers at their word (or what you believe their words to be), to an often childish degree. Yet when given the words of the Confederacy's founders you either ignore them, or sidestep them, or insist the Confederate founders are somehow woefully "misunderstood" when in fact they spoke quite plainly.

 

[IMJerusha]

When feelings are running high, the bigger person will stand down a bit. I do not rub salt in another's wounds. Wait til things calm down, as they always do, then go about your business.
In other words, out of respect, put the flag away for a time.
At least that is what I would do.

I get what you're saying Bybee but this has nothing to do with rubbing salt in anyone's wound. This has to do with liberty in the United States. Southerners are proud of their Confederate ancestry and have the right to stand by their ancestors who fought and died for what they believed in, the right of states, under the Constitution, to govern themselves.

 

[Granite]

I get what you're saying Bybee but this has nothing to do with rubbing salt in anyone's wound. This has to do with liberty in the United States. Southerners are proud of their Confederate ancestry and have the right to stand by their ancestors who fought and died for what they believed in, the right of states, under the Constitution, to govern themselves.

...so they could maintain and spread slavery. They said this. We know.